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Old 06-23-2008, 08:43 PM   #14
Josiah
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grayback View Post
Blackbear--

I'm not going to go on arguing about any of this, although there are three things in your new post that I still disagree with. Strongly.

But I've said what I feel and think about the basic issue, and I'm gonna leave it at that. I think what you, I, and eap have written pretty much covers both sides' perspective.

I learned a long time ago that to keep on talking when neither side agrees or is going to budge, is nonproductive. I could go on all day with examples of what I've seen, of what others see, but I suspect you're going to come back each time with, "Sorry, never see it happen." My feeling on that stems basically from the fact that one of the first things you wrote in reply to me, was an aspersion against how Indian you felt I might be, if only by some lack of involvement with my own community.

That's usually the best sign that a 'discussion' is about to go South. No one is ever 'less' Indian, just because our opinions or practices don't happen to mesh. I might think someone is wrong in something they do, but it's got nothing to do with them not being 'Indian enough' to know otherwise.

People see things, or they don't, and that's how it is. Either they take part in the discussion to change a problem (perceived or otherwise), or they don't. If you don't have problems like this up where you live, then I envy you. I assure you that it isn't the same down here.

Others have privately messaged me to agree that they see the same problems in their area, but have chosen not to make those comments public on this thread. I respect that, but I wish more folks who see what I and others see, would also speak up publicly about it. These abuses aren't even half so rare a problem as a lot of Indians would make it out to be.

But I respect their decision to keep the peace, so to speak. Most of the time, I keep quiet myself, because I know that what I or others say about this isn't going to make any difference in where it's going. Not enough people give a sh*t.

I personally don't dance or even attend many powwows anymore. We each make our own decisions about these things, which is all anyone can or is free to do.

Now, a few minor comments on other things in your post:

You:
"The repository isn't the US government's way of regulating natives... but it is a way that was set up to get feathers to us."

Me:
"When the birds do die, they DO hand those feathers out to Natives. What the hell more do we want from the government? They have laws to protect the birds, but they still do what they can to get those feathers into the Native community. It's win-win, as far as I can tell."

Note that I did point that out. I've argued this very thing in my post over on the "eagle feathers?!??!" thread.

I've never said the repository is a way to control Natives. In fact I believe it does "our" community a service (is the parenthesis any better?). I've never claimed the contrary. Never will.

The 'community' I'm talking about is the one we ALL belong to. Like it or not, pan-tribalism in the competitive powwow arena is here to stay. Problems for one tribe or one area affect us ALL, eventually. Ask any tribe who thought to stand up to the White Colonials by themselves.

'Alone' don't float.

All the same, I'm gonna leave this thread alone, now. ;)

It's funny to me, but... back when I first joined this website in 2002, I got involved in some discussions (occasionally arguments) with you and a few others. Mostly we disagreed--some things don't change, it seems. Given that you were so conservative upon cultural changes I was far more liberal upon, I was a bit surprised to see us disagree on this one. It did make me laugh, though.

Thanks to those of you who've lent your support to what I've said both here and on the "eagle feathers?!?!?" thread. Public or private, I appreciate it.

-grayback
Dang take a chill pill

By the way I just recieved a letter from Fish and Wildlife today
You know the ones that regulate eagle feathers
They are streamlining the whole process
For those of us that have permits we now have them for life and we no longer have to go through the area offices but our orders go straight to the Repository

As for the orders
It takes about 6 months for 10 loose feathers ( And you can order over and over)
About 14 months for a pair of wings
And up to 5 years for a whole bird
As for a "shortage" of feathers out there for Powwow dancing, I see no such thing Ndn's adapt and use what feathers they can...

As for me I ordered a wing and recieved it in 13 months, I now dance with a eagle wing...

I chat with folks all over and ask them how long it took to get there orders, they say not too bad and as for Fans one trend I am seeing is "Macaw fans" all over the place
Dang now they are hard to get a hold of!!!!

As for hoarding these precious feathers I have already passed them to my family with papers all legal as per the regs
They are best put to use not stuff in a box stashed away!
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ᎠᏂᎩᏚᏩᎩ - Anigiduwagi
Till I Die!

Last edited by Josiah; 06-23-2008 at 08:45 PM..
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