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kiyaanii mom 10-15-2008 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOVEBUG87 (Post 1225836)
Ojibwecommodbod you are probably the Ojib dude I've seen at some local "wannabee powwows" drumming, dancing intertribals and acting like you're indianer than thou'!

:hysterica :hysterica :hysterica


:whistling :lurk:

ok24stacey 10-15-2008 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiyaanii mom (Post 1225948)
:hysterica :hysterica :hysterica


:whistling :lurk:


I KNOW!!!!

Anyways, been watching this thread for awhile debating on if I should say anything but I am just not up for it. If at anytime someone wants me to leave just let me know....:thumbsup::thumbsup:

PappyRoach 10-15-2008 06:04 PM

The young man is strangely quite considering his last post

I believe he may have learned a big lesson, unfortunately for him, he had to get his Ego stomped on to learn it

kiyaanii mom 10-15-2008 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PappyRoach (Post 1226020)
The young man is strangely quite considering his last post

I believe he may have learned a big lesson, unfortunately for him, he had to get his Ego stomped on to learn it

Just be patient..... I don't think he will go away that easily...


:whistling:

Ginger 10-16-2008 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FluteMaker (Post 857241)
i think we're going to need more popcorn guys

I brought some sodas & a couple of extra chairshttp://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2.../sodacans2.jpg

Joe's Dad 10-16-2008 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhamblin (Post 1225739)
Ok, I understand it's not the best place to go for that. But since a journey begins with the first step, where would you suggest I legitimately go to take that first step? Seriously searching, not just for the fun of it, and not intending to offend anyone, where would you if you were in my place? And going to a pow wow and just observing people and events, is not unproductive in itself, if you try not to be a nuisance. Thanks, b

Go to the homes of these people...

Just curious - How do you feel about a person who is part choctaw and sac-fox (but never knew my great grandmother), and raised white in a white mans world, with no connections otherwise to American Indian acquaintances,

bhamblin 10-16-2008 11:50 AM

Rocks on Mars
 
Ok, thanks. Um, could you point me in the direction of "Mars". That would help a lot. :whatchuta
Quote:

Originally Posted by streamhawk (Post 1225920)
let me put it to you this way. There have been a couple of rocks found on earth that they believe were expelled from the surface of Mars. But, I wouldn't be looking on the Earth, all over the place to find a rock or two to learn about Mars, kinda hit and miss...I'd go to Mars itself, if that's what I wanted to learn about.


streamhawk 10-16-2008 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhamblin (Post 1226325)
Ok, thanks. Um, could you point me in the direction of "Mars". That would help a lot. :whatchuta

Well, start by going to powwow's put on by either of those tribes. You might actually luck out and find someone of the tribe of interest at a powwow, but I agree, it's usually not the place to find a mentor of culture and language. However, the Creator sometimes can put things and people in front of you that you need, if your eyes are open enough to see. Can happen, wouldn't hold my breath, but it's possible. As you said, it's a place to start.

bhamblin 10-27-2008 08:44 PM

Cultural learning place?
 
Thank you streamhawk, it is difficult, when you are walking new ground to avoid the sinkholes. So, I usually keep my mouth closed and eyes wide open. That way, even at a pow wow I won't knowingly offend, and perhaps will learn or at least find another direction to find out more. Thanks for understanding.

streamhawk 10-28-2008 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhamblin (Post 1232631)
Thanks for understanding.

not a problem, good luck on your journey. I've found that pretty much every time you attempt to blow your balloon up, someone is there with a needle to pop it. Just keep blowing your balloon up, one day it will take you where you need to be.

babyduck 10-28-2008 11:26 AM

I Don't mind seeing chimook's dancing. For many obvious reasons, I don't agree with them singing on a drum! :wilted_ro

cclkick 10-29-2008 11:34 AM

Don't be mad ojibwecommodbod be glad..lol..that you are able to speak your mind without fear of jail or death. be glad and thank the soldiers and vets and civil rights activists for making/protecting that right. and this website for giving you the place to do it. many posts were made on this thread, so people heard you. some had agreement with at least part of your statements/beliefs....but if you feel not enough backed you...well thats the risk one takes in getting up in a crowd and announcing something. thats life i guess. the internet has made this a much different world in some ways, but people are still people. speak your mind and listen to what others have to say and evaluate everything thats how we all learn and grow and become better as a person.

crazywolf 10-29-2008 02:02 PM

Boozhoo niji,

I am hoping this goes to the right thread, I hate using these library computers.

OK so here goes my reply after having read most of this thread... So I am part Anishinaabe, and part everything else. I was raised white in the part of the country as far from Anishinaabe as you can get, that is how my mother wanted it. And yet she wanted me to return to experience it. I had to learn and plan for about ten years before I finally moved back. So here I am.

I had to learn what I know, from this site and asking questions, from books, and the ocassional elder that would happen to travel to Florida, where I am from originally. I was very selective in the books I read, usually the ones not written by white people. I was very selective about the people I spoke to at pow wows in Florida. You want to talk about wannabes? Florida must be their homeland.

Ok so now I know what its like living here with my people, and strangely, its not much different. I only live about 90 miles from Red Lake, and I still cannot afford the gas to go and speak with my elders, and gas has dropped below $2.50 a gallon. I go to pow wows when they are around, but usually a dancer gets paid day monies to help with gas. You usually have to give something when you go asking elders.

I have seen white people dance at pow wows, and sing there too. Some of them do it better than us! I remember this one kid who was in Order of the Arrow, the top rank you can get in the Boy Scouts. He fancy danced and also sang. We set up a drum together at this one pow wow and I remember a Kiowa man comming and singing with us. So during this one intertribal song he spit out some kind of Ponca song and I saw the expression on the Kiowa's face like he saw some kind of ghost. He told us later that its rare to hear someone sing that song correctly and wanted to know where he learned it. I cannot remember the name the white guy said, but the Kiowa raised his eyebrows and said... D@#n thats cool. He sat with us for the rest of the pow wow.

I never met an elder that said that our culture was not to be shared. I have never met a person that runs a sweat that refused someone to enter the lodge, unless they were drunk. Our culture is meant to be shared niji, just not misused. I have spoken with people who warn against mixing our ways with the Jesus ways, and this is not what they want. We need to keep our individuality, and if someone comes into the circle, be they white, black, red or yellow, and do something wrong then it is up to us to correct and teach the right way. If they go on to say that they learned about it from someone who also knows it the wrong way, then tell them this is the way it has always been.

I told a story to some kids one day, Anishinaabe kids, about Wenebozhoo (sp?) I was later corrected by this guy, a Sundancer, that I told it wrong. I asked him to correct me. He said it was Nanabozhoo. He and Wenebozhoo are brothers. Huh, I never heard that one before. This guy was more NDN than I and he knows the story wrong.

I was told this story by an elder, about Maudji-Kawiss, Pukawiss, Cheeby-aub-Bozhoo, and Wenebozhoo (or Nanabozhoo if you come from the other side of the lake). And yet I did not argue with this person. I wanted to see how deep he dug himself. He was older than I, so I was also not in a place to correct him. I also didn't judge him, only knew that his version of the story was wrong, and also question everything he tells me. But I still listen.

You should not alienate yourself from other people that are out there misusing our culture. Telling them to go away does not fix the problem, because they will just go and do it someplace else. Ask them where they learned it, and then teach them the right way. Do not try to embarrass them either. Do not go and confront them in the circle where everyone else is out there dancing having a good time. I have never seen an arena director take someone out of the circle for doing something wrong unless they posed a threat to the other dancers. They will go up and ask why someone is dancing backwards or in some other abnormal way, and then tell them not to do it if its not within protocol. I have seen this happen even at the smallest of one of our pow wows.

Well time has run out on this computer. Have to go.

Derek

Rik 10-30-2008 03:57 AM

Having read the hole thread, I din't knew there was so much hate between NA and the "white guys".
I'm a white guy from Belgium (Europe) and my hole life I am interested in NA issues. Unfortely I don't have the money to come to the states and attend a powwow. But having read this thread I have big questions.
I apologize for my english.
Greetings from Belgium to all (red black white yellow) of you.

Wakalapi 11-04-2008 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazywolf (Post 1233589)
Boozhoo niji,

I am hoping this goes to the right thread, I hate using these library computers.

OK so here goes my reply after having read most of this thread... So I am part Anishinaabe, and part everything else. I was raised white in the part of the country as far from Anishinaabe as you can get, that is how my mother wanted it. And yet she wanted me to return to experience it. I had to learn and plan for about ten years before I finally moved back. So here I am.

I had to learn what I know, from this site and asking questions, from books, and the ocassional elder that would happen to travel to Florida, where I am from originally. I was very selective in the books I read, usually the ones not written by white people. I was very selective about the people I spoke to at pow wows in Florida. You want to talk about wannabes? Florida must be their homeland.

Ok so now I know what its like living here with my people, and strangely, its not much different. I only live about 90 miles from Red Lake, and I still cannot afford the gas to go and speak with my elders, and gas has dropped below $2.50 a gallon. I go to pow wows when they are around, but usually a dancer gets paid day monies to help with gas. You usually have to give something when you go asking elders.

I have seen white people dance at pow wows, and sing there too. Some of them do it better than us! I remember this one kid who was in Order of the Arrow, the top rank you can get in the Boy Scouts. He fancy danced and also sang. We set up a drum together at this one pow wow and I remember a Kiowa man comming and singing with us. So during this one intertribal song he spit out some kind of Ponca song and I saw the expression on the Kiowa's face like he saw some kind of ghost. He told us later that its rare to hear someone sing that song correctly and wanted to know where he learned it. I cannot remember the name the white guy said, but the Kiowa raised his eyebrows and said... D@#n thats cool. He sat with us for the rest of the pow wow.

I never met an elder that said that our culture was not to be shared. I have never met a person that runs a sweat that refused someone to enter the lodge, unless they were drunk. Our culture is meant to be shared niji, just not misused. I have spoken with people who warn against mixing our ways with the Jesus ways, and this is not what they want. We need to keep our individuality, and if someone comes into the circle, be they white, black, red or yellow, and do something wrong then it is up to us to correct and teach the right way. If they go on to say that they learned about it from someone who also knows it the wrong way, then tell them this is the way it has always been.

I told a story to some kids one day, Anishinaabe kids, about Wenebozhoo (sp?) I was later corrected by this guy, a Sundancer, that I told it wrong. I asked him to correct me. He said it was Nanabozhoo. He and Wenebozhoo are brothers. Huh, I never heard that one before. This guy was more NDN than I and he knows the story wrong.

I was told this story by an elder, about Maudji-Kawiss, Pukawiss, Cheeby-aub-Bozhoo, and Wenebozhoo (or Nanabozhoo if you come from the other side of the lake). And yet I did not argue with this person. I wanted to see how deep he dug himself. He was older than I, so I was also not in a place to correct him. I also didn't judge him, only knew that his version of the story was wrong, and also question everything he tells me. But I still listen.

You should not alienate yourself from other people that are out there misusing our culture. Telling them to go away does not fix the problem, because they will just go and do it someplace else. Ask them where they learned it, and then teach them the right way. Do not try to embarrass them either. Do not go and confront them in the circle where everyone else is out there dancing having a good time. I have never seen an arena director take someone out of the circle for doing something wrong unless they posed a threat to the other dancers. They will go up and ask why someone is dancing backwards or in some other abnormal way, and then tell them not to do it if its not within protocol. I have seen this happen even at the smallest of one of our pow wows.

Well time has run out on this computer. Have to go.

Derek


Derek that was a very classy way you handled yourself conversing with the older man. I know that many native people would actually handle the situation similarly, but there are some who would not resist the urge to jump down his throat with corrections just to show off their learning. And by doing so they would expose their lack of learning.

OLChemist 11-04-2008 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rik (Post 1233935)
Having read the hole thread, I din't knew there was so much hate between NA and the "white guys".

First, welcome.

Second, Native people are not monolithic. According to the last census there are 4.3 million self-identified Indians and Alaskan Natives. We come from in excess of 500 nations. Each has it's own history of interaction with the dominant culture. And, each individual has their own, personal history and experiences with members of the dominant culture. That leads to a huge range of responses -- something like 4.3 million different sets of feelings and actions.

Sure there is anger and hate. Look at the history of Native non-Native encounters. Look at the death toll. Count the languages no longer spoken. Try having brown skin in a rez border town. Some Native people are angry and hate whites in general. Some Native people are just hateful by nature and don't like anybody. But, most Native people like and dislike specific people - Native and non- for a variety of reasons, just like "white" people.

But, this discussion isn't about "hating" white people. In part, it is about whether or not white people who dance at powwows are doing so because they feel an imperialist entitlement to our ways. In part it is a debate about whether non-Native people are harming our cultures by dancing. I don't think folks that are saying white people can't dance, are saying so just because "they" hate them, but are instead saying dominant culture participation in powwows threatens our cultural integrity.

cclkick 11-05-2008 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rik (Post 1233935)
Having read the hole thread, I din't knew there was so much hate between NA and the "white guys".
I'm a white guy from Belgium (Europe) and my hole life I am interested in NA issues. Unfortely I don't have the money to come to the states and attend a powwow. But having read this thread I have big questions.
I apologize for my english.
Greetings from Belgium to all (red black white yellow) of you.

hi RIK! i just wanted to say hey, cuz i was born in Belgium! everyone says "huh" when i tell them that..lol My father was in the US army and our family stationed in SHAPE when i was born. but I dont ever run into people from Belgium. so its nice to meet cha! :thumbsup:

Rik 11-05-2008 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1236117)
First, welcome.

Second, Native people are not monolithic. According to the last census there are 4.3 million self-identified Indians and Alaskan Natives. We come from in excess of 500 nations. Each has it's own history of interaction with the dominant culture. And, each individual has their own, personal history and experiences with members of the dominant culture. That leads to a huge range of responses -- something like 4.3 million different sets of feelings and actions.

Sure there is anger and hate. Look at the history of Native non-Native encounters. Look at the death toll. Count the languages no longer spoken. Try having brown skin in a rez border town. Some Native people are angry and hate whites in general. Some Native people are just hateful by nature and don't like anybody. But, most Native people like and dislike specific people - Native and non- for a variety of reasons, just like "white" people.

But, this discussion isn't about "hating" white people. In part, it is about whether or not white people who dance at powwows are doing so because they feel an imperialist entitlement to our ways. In part it is a debate about whether non-Native people are harming our cultures by dancing. I don't think folks that are saying white people can't dance, are saying so just because "they" hate them, but are instead saying dominant culture participation in powwows threatens our cultural integrity.

Thanks for the explanation. Like I said my english is not good but I understand what you mean.
But what I don't understand is that dancing of non-NA at powwows can threatens your cultural integrity. Maybe this people want to learn more about NA and wants to participate in your culture. Why can it harm anything if this people means well? Maybe its good for your culture if you open up to non-NA and let them learn more about NA issues.
If everybody closes the circle around him, whats the point of living?
Anyway, thats my humble opinion.

Rik 11-06-2008 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cclkick (Post 1236511)
hi RIK! i just wanted to say hey, cuz i was born in Belgium! everyone says "huh" when i tell them that..lol My father was in the US army and our family stationed in SHAPE when i was born. but I dont ever run into people from Belgium. so its nice to meet cha! :thumbsup:

Hi there, nice to meet you to!
Not many people (from the states) know Belgium. They think Belgium is some kind of provence from France:teeth:. I hate it when they say that. Belgium is a small country but I like to live here.
The SHAPE is about 80km from my home. When we go for a ride with the motorcycle, we sometimes go in the area of the SHAPE. Two years ago, we (Harley Davidson club) where invated by the SHAPE on July 4. That was very nice.
Greetings from Belgium and again I apologize for my english. You know that we speak dutch or frence in Belgium.

Wakalapi 11-06-2008 05:41 PM

Hallo Rik.

I won't pretend to speak for "everyone" by any means, but there is a feeling throughout our community that in order to dance certain dances, sing certain songs, you must first get permission from the people that made them. There is also a feeling that such songs and dances have been freely given to all, meaning "to all fellow Native Americans" and not necessarily to the world entire. In many cultures, there are actions or rites that are held as exclusive to members-only. As examples, in Protestant Christianity one is not supposed to participate in the Lord's Supper who is not a Christian believer and in Judaism, one is not supposed to fully try to keep the Sabbath who is a non-Jew.

If one day I felt like learning to dance and recite the Haka, would it be a sign of admiration and flattery to the Maori Native New Zealander culture? Perhaps in the European mindset, it would. But in our minds, I would just be "being a wannabe" and dancing/reciting something I have no right to do.

Also, we have to wonder, why do some people need to understand everything about us just to respect us and acknowledge our rights to be who we are? Do they mistrust us but do not want to admit it, and thus they must see that we are not dancing to devils and drumming up evil spirits? Do they have to verify and validate us before they can simply allow us to be? After hundreds of years of enduring persecution at the hands of "church people" for simply being who we are and doing our cultural activities, please understand that not all of our culture is open to outside observers. However, we are taught amongst each other to welcome outsiders, to put them up in our homes for the night and honor them with food for taking the time to visit us. We are taught to share our social dances and friendship songs. But because of poor relations with some settlers and many missionaries, some of our people remain reluctant to display such traditional intertribal hospitality to non-Indians. It would win you more respect to be patient of this and avoid forcing your way in whenever you do experience reluctance.


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