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Rik 11-07-2008 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakalapi (Post 1237050)
Hallo Rik.

I won't pretend to speak for "everyone" by any means, but there is a feeling throughout our community that in order to dance certain dances, sing certain songs, you must first get permission from the people that made them. There is also a feeling that such songs and dances have been freely given to all, meaning "to all fellow Native Americans" and not necessarily to the world entire. In many cultures, there are actions or rites that are held as exclusive to members-only. As examples, in Protestant Christianity one is not supposed to participate in the Lord's Supper who is not a Christian believer and in Judaism, one is not supposed to fully try to keep the Sabbath who is a non-Jew.

If one day I felt like learning to dance and recite the Haka, would it be a sign of admiration and flattery to the Maori Native New Zealander culture? Perhaps in the European mindset, it would. But in our minds, I would just be "being a wannabe" and dancing/reciting something I have no right to do.

Also, we have to wonder, why do some people need to understand everything about us just to respect us and acknowledge our rights to be who we are? Do they mistrust us but do not want to admit it, and thus they must see that we are not dancing to devils and drumming up evil spirits? Do they have to verify and validate us before they can simply allow us to be? After hundreds of years of enduring persecution at the hands of "church people" for simply being who we are and doing our cultural activities, please understand that not all of our culture is open to outside observers. However, we are taught amongst each other to welcome outsiders, to put them up in our homes for the night and honor them with food for taking the time to visit us. We are taught to share our social dances and friendship songs. But because of poor relations with some settlers and many missionaries, some of our people remain reluctant to display such traditional intertribal hospitality to non-Indians. It would win you more respect to be patient of this and avoid forcing your way in whenever you do experience reluctance.

Hello Wakalapi,
Apparently there are some hugh differences in our two cultures. When we (europeans) want to learn something about a certain community or group, it shows great respect if you want to join them in their singing and dancing. Off course you have to ask permission first. Are you a "wannebe" if you want to join them? Maybe, but why would you want to "join" them if you dont have admiration and respect for this community? To be one of them is offcourse not possible because each individual has his own identitiy and culture. So you have to be carreful by understanding the words "join them".
I dont want to understand "everything" about your culture, therefore you have to be a NA. But is it wrong to have a great admiration en to be interested in NA issues if you're a non-NA?
During the course of history it wasnt easy for your people, but if more honnest non-NA people would join you, would you not be stronger as a group?

Rik 11-11-2008 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakalapi (Post 1237050)
Hallo Rik.

I won't pretend to speak for "everyone" by any means, but there is a feeling throughout our community that in order to dance certain dances, sing certain songs, you must first get permission from the people that made them. There is also a feeling that such songs and dances have been freely given to all, meaning "to all fellow Native Americans" and not necessarily to the world entire. In many cultures, there are actions or rites that are held as exclusive to members-only. As examples, in Protestant Christianity one is not supposed to participate in the Lord's Supper who is not a Christian believer and in Judaism, one is not supposed to fully try to keep the Sabbath who is a non-Jew.

If one day I felt like learning to dance and recite the Haka, would it be a sign of admiration and flattery to the Maori Native New Zealander culture? Perhaps in the European mindset, it would. But in our minds, I would just be "being a wannabe" and dancing/reciting something I have no right to do.

Also, we have to wonder, why do some people need to understand everything about us just to respect us and acknowledge our rights to be who we are? Do they mistrust us but do not want to admit it, and thus they must see that we are not dancing to devils and drumming up evil spirits? Do they have to verify and validate us before they can simply allow us to be? After hundreds of years of enduring persecution at the hands of "church people" for simply being who we are and doing our cultural activities, please understand that not all of our culture is open to outside observers. However, we are taught amongst each other to welcome outsiders, to put them up in our homes for the night and honor them with food for taking the time to visit us. We are taught to share our social dances and friendship songs. But because of poor relations with some settlers and many missionaries, some of our people remain reluctant to display such traditional intertribal hospitality to non-Indians. It would win you more respect to be patient of this and avoid forcing your way in whenever you do experience reluctance.

A few days ago I have send a reply. But unfortunatly the admin have not posted this reply.

Pheji Wanbli 11-12-2008 09:37 AM

that explains every thing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ojibwecommodbod (Post 856226)
cuz you are disrespecting us by thinking u know what u are doing! thats why. the ndns u met here that think its ok for anybody to suit up and dance and/or sing, are prolly some new age friggin cherokee from virginia. (lotsa legit ndns there)

the powows u dont feel comfortable at are probably powows that are run correctly and frown upon wanabees.

everybody is welcome at a powow, just dont think you "belong" there with an outfit on, or sittin at some crazy a$$ drum. stand on the sidelines, gaze at the indins, and pay the folks u take pictures of.

and i know, alot of people are nice here, but whoever knows me, knows i'm nice as long as u know yer place. u dont see me coming to bowling league telling you how to bowl.

and of course i got a moderators attention, the title speaks out to most of you mods.

we were in southern oh a few weeks ago....we were bascaily havin pratice at this little gathering..we were jamming a good porcupine song..i thought i herd some dancers behind us..all of a sudden this guy threw his blue herron fan on our drum.threw it right on the head.we knocked it off..got through with the song and we stopped to cover the drum...the guy proceeded too tell us we owed him four push-ups more of singing. the mountain man was gettin anger..so we packed up and quit singing,, i told him we were smugin the drum cause he threw a fan of feathers of a water bird on our drum..he had no clue who he was.

netdiva 01-02-2009 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ginger (Post 1226233)
I brought some sodas & a couple of extra chairs

You got any red flavor kool-aid with that? I got some doritos!

:angel:

TKMJ Productions 01-02-2009 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pheji Wanbli (Post 1239587)
we were in southern oh a few weeks ago....we were bascaily havin pratice at this little gathering..we were jamming a good porcupine song..i thought i herd some dancers behind us..all of a sudden this guy threw his blue herron fan on our drum.threw it right on the head.we knocked it off..got through with the song and we stopped to cover the drum...the guy proceeded too tell us we owed him four push-ups more of singing. the mountain man was gettin anger..so we packed up and quit singing,, i told him we were smugin the drum cause he threw a fan of feathers of a water bird on our drum..he had no clue who he was.

Hey Pheji,
You owe him four more pushups???????? Yep! Sure! Right On! OK!

I assume you kept that gift of feathers to the drum. :lol:

FluteMaker 01-03-2009 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rik (Post 1237195)
Hello Wakalapi,
Apparently there are some hugh differences in our two cultures.


and youre just now figuring that out?

Coyot_In_The_House 01-07-2009 12:32 PM

Some folks go to some rugged Powwows.....
 
Sure we've been to them, but holay some of the stories I read here? Yes there are rough stories and good as well....I'll remind some of us that wasiju, white, anglo, caucasian, etc, etc, etc.....peoples have participated and will participate in our community functions and have come to be a part of our community....Thats clear when we think of groups like Porcupine and Red Leaf Takoja (Heartbeat). I for one have had good experiences with individuals who sing and are a part of those families. As well I know a couple of gentlemen who have gained alot of respect in Southern arenas.

I suppose it is simply how you carry yourself and the choices you make....Sure there are some goofballs out there and this thread certainly proves that.....

Carolann 01-07-2009 02:02 PM

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badmaninc 01-07-2009 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coyot_In_The_House (Post 1256076)
Sure we've been to them, but holay some of the stories I read here? Yes there are rough stories and good as well....I'll remind some of us that wasiju, white, anglo, caucasian, etc, etc, etc.....peoples have participated and will participate in our community functions and have come to be a part of our community....Thats clear when we think of groups like Porcupine and Red Leaf Takoja (Heartbeat). I for one have had good experiences with individuals who sing and are a part of those families. As well I know a couple of gentlemen who have gained alot of respect in Southern arenas.

I suppose it is simply how you carry yourself and the choices you make....Sure there are some goofballs out there and this thread certainly proves that.....

I was thinking the same thing. We have some of our own people who are experts on every different ndn culture and teaching. They know everything about our bighouses in the tree tribal territories that use them here. They know everything about smudging, sundancing, ghost dancing, the seven drum religion. I am a person of 47 years old and don't ever say I know everything about one culture. I actually am still learning about mine. I know a little but do not ever claim to be an expert. I know expert powwowers who only found out about their ancestry less than ten years ago. Now they are arena directors, MCs, drumkeepers. I don't worry about them, I have my own life to live for my wife and children. These people who claim to be experts usually screw up and it costs them one way or the other.

PappyRoach 01-11-2009 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carolann (Post 1256093)
I am half Cherokee and I get it from both sides .

My moms side came from Ohio and it was my GG Grandfather who was a Cherokee Chief ( and we dont have princesses ) .

I have elders who walked the trail of tears and ones who escaped and stayed in the eastern part of the country .

On my dads side it came from my GG Grandmother & GG Grandfather from OK , they were both full blood Cherokee and it was my Grandmother who married an Irish man and was ousted out of her tribe .


I was taught my Cherokee ways by my Grandmother and am still learning the ways to this day .

I have found and still find that I will never fully be accepted in either race and it is just something I have to live with .

So call me a wanna be or whatever else you like but it wont stop me from " invading " your powwows and I will still go on learning and embracing my Cherokee ways and heritage .

.......... Carolann aka Cryptoseeker :)

HUH???
So who is your family that had the "Chief" as that hereditary position/title has been handed down through the generations through one family.
I have a hard time understanding the "ousted" concept.
There are so many families here in Cherokee with white blood that if I were to believe what you said then this place would be damn near a ghost town because if as you say they get OUSTED for marrying outside the nation and race then most of the Cherokee people living here now should have been shunned along with your granny

Kamama 01-13-2009 06:47 PM

Growing up, I always thought Santa Clause was white. That was until one year, my Grand-pa went into the bathroom, and never came out. Instead of Grand-pa. out came Santa with his big red belly, long white beard, shiny black boots, and....whats this? Santas skin was red! - That was the year I knew Santa wasn't real, but, it didnt matter - it was my Grand-pa under that disquise. Sure, he was dressed as some jolly white dude handing out gifts, but, underneath, he was still Indian. And ya know what? Under my skin (yeah, I look white), I am still Indian too.

When I first started going to pow wows, it was hard at first. The white folks telling me If Im NDN, I must not be much. And the NDNs pretty much saying the same. Still is hard at times, depends on where the pow wow is. But, you get use to it. You learn to live with it. You cant force yourself on people and expect them to like you, to accept you. You are who you are, be proud of that, no matter what your culture, your heritage.

A few years ago, someone had told a friend of mine, "she's not NDN, she doesnt have a drop of Native blood in her".
I told her to tell that person "you tell my grand-father he has no Native blood in him, and then HE can tell me."

I dunno if this has anything to do with anything, just wanted to get it out I guess.

SuzzeQ4 01-13-2009 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamama (Post 1257527)
Growing up, I always thought Santa Clause was white.

Oh he's NDN all right, my kids inform everyone that santa is NDN cause they are related to him through Grandma Claus (my mom in law). Besides who ever heard of a white man giving stuff away for free!

crazywolf 01-14-2009 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 (Post 1257547)
Oh he's NDN all right, my kids inform everyone that santa is NDN cause they are related to him through Grandma Claus (my mom in law). Besides who ever heard of a white man giving stuff away for free!

Ho HO HOWAH!

Carolann 01-14-2009 04:21 PM

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Rynn 01-14-2009 06:29 PM

Hold on a second, PappyRoach no disrespect to you however I think that NO ONE has the right to deem a person Native or not.

My name is Rynn and I am Carolann's niece. We are of Cherokee ( Cherokee in Creek means people of a funny language) So I prefer to call my tribe by its proper and due title TsaLaGi ( which means the principal people) blood. History was written most asuredly by those of one sided view points afterall one of my favorite authors says it perfectly " America maintains that History is a matter of semantics". Gabriel Horn. You and I just like Mr Horn know this to not be the case.

I would like to question why you take offense to my aunts statement. Its no personal attack on you nor anyone else. Perhaps the "Ousted" was because my white ancestors didnt want anything to do with the Tsalagi tribe. No one will ever know the real reason for all of ancestors actions. All that we can do is decide to be kind and better to each other then our nation's past.

This is on a side note to all who believe full bloods to be the only participants in Pow wow's.
If a person is of mixed blood , why does that matter? Should a person this day in age care enough to honor their ancestor whether they are full blooded or 1/16th should it matter. The fact that a person cares and wants to walk it out ( not play Indian) should it matter, and if it indeed does bother some folks, why then? There is healing to tribes with acceptence of mixed blood and half breeds and whatever other adjective there is to sling at people. People are just people, let folks honor their ancestors, no judgement.

I walk in two worlds , Iam proud of my blood and I know who Iam ( Shelley Morningsong)

Nvwa Dohi Yada~ Harmony to you

Rynn

SuzzeQ4 01-14-2009 07:40 PM

Ryan
 
Why blood quantum and lineage matter to many of us:

Well there are so many people walking around saying "My great - great (...) grandparent was (this sentence is usually finished with the words princess, Cherokee or chief). It comes off sounding (to us) as those these white people with distant Native ancestors are proud to have a distant Native ancestor so long as they were a "special" Indian, and not just a regular everyday kind of Indian.

To wonder why this distant connection seems so irrelevant to us, think of it in terms you may understand. I am 1/2 white (specifically French) but lets pretend i was only 1/16 (or less)band went running off to France with my French vocabulary of about 8 (badly pronounced) words telling them I was the decendant of some great French person (not that I'm providing names). Now I've read all about French people and am so interested in my distant (un-named) ancestor and want to be excepted into thier ways (but prefeably within my Native context and ways). How well do you think I'd be excepted? They'd probably brush me off rather then welcome me in with open arms. Do you think they'd hand me over citizinship?, invite me into their secret orders?. Nope Now imagine they had Indians showing up all the time like this. I bet they'd get sick and tired of it. Start questioning with apprehension each of these people. Don't you think?

Pappy Roach is just giving a very tired reply to something we all hear everyday.

Rynn 01-14-2009 08:08 PM

Yes I see your point. And I have had folks approach me at pow wow's making outragoues claims. Heck I had a woman just reach out and grab my hair, twice!!!
However that does not require or nor give anyone the right to just dismiss another because of a commonly heard statement.

My husband and I both get approached a great deal by folks claiming all sorts of titles We sometimes refer to them as new age earth muffins.

It gets irrtating at times but some who approach us have sincere hearts and therefore we never dismiss anyone, regardless of their claims.

When dealing with any people half breed full blood or other wise we should always maintain grace after all we are all just human beings.

thank you for sharing your point of view.

dohi
Rynn

Joe's Dad 01-15-2009 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rynn (Post 1257766)
Yes I see your point. And I have had folks approach me at pow wow's making outragoues claims. Heck I had a woman just reach out and grab my hair, twice!!!
However that does not require or nor give anyone the right to just dismiss another because of a commonly heard statement.

My husband and I both get approached a great deal by folks claiming all sorts of titles We sometimes refer to them as new age earth muffins.

It gets irrtating at times but some who approach us have sincere hearts and therefore we never dismiss anyone, regardless of their claims.

When dealing with any people half breed full blood or other wise we should always maintain grace after all we are all just human beings.

thank you for sharing your point of view.

dohi
Rynn

Rynn,

We're all human beings...with different cultures and upbringings.

I had a black person tell me not too long ago his grandmother was from the Blackhawk Tribe and looked just like me with long, black hair. I've never heard of that tribe, so I didn't question him. I just wondered why he didn't have any of his grandma's long, black hair.

Now, go to the other extreme. A blue-eyed toehead blonde comes up and tell you they're 1/16 NDN from 'x' tribe and want to honor their forefathers.

Again, you don't question their intent. You just wonder how many generations they have been removed from the 'x' tribes traditions and culture. Who has taught them the correct ways to honor their forefathers?

One of the biggest red flags one can throw up is when they skip a generation in naming their lineage. You'll hear them say 'my great-grandpa' or 'my great-grandma' was from such and such a tribe but got run off or they took off and hid.

I've always wondered if these people are ashamed to name their father or mother in their lineage. Maybe it's because their parents look like the aforementioned people.

Now go back and read your aunt's first post and see where she mentions her mother OR father directly.

SuzzeQ4 01-15-2009 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rynn (Post 1257766)
.

My husband and I both get approached a great deal by folks claiming all sorts of titles We sometimes refer to them as new age earth muffins.

then why are you surprised?

You know many of us know our history, know the names of the chiefs from our Nations. Just like many white people know the names of their leaders past and present. If white people with distant Native ancestors (like you claim) really have found a Chief on the family tree just say "I'm a decendant of so and so" and then the people of that Nation would all be "Oh Chief so and so, yes, we know some of your distant cousins..." But like I said you all just walk around saying My great great...grandparent was a (princess / chief). It's like your all expecting a red carpet. Take the route I suggested, there are actual Cherokee people here that will know who you mean...however it still won't get you a red carpet, and you'll still sound white cause we don't introduce ourselves with statements about our grandparents being Chiefs, we tend to indroduce who we are.

Carolann 01-15-2009 09:27 AM

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