PowWows.com Forums - Native American Culture

PowWows.com Forums - Native American Culture (http://forums.powwows.com/)
-   Pow Wow Talk (http://forums.powwows.com/f11/)
-   -   *attention White People Who Powow!* (http://forums.powwows.com/f11/attention-white-people-who-powow-36832/)

timmy tiger 01-15-2009 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josiah (Post 1258058)
Yep Civil War
John Ross was Chief till 1866 when he passed away


Okay, now I'm confused there 'cause I was under the impression that he left IT and went to Washington and that's where he died. So he was Chief 'til he died. Like I said, I've only done research on him a few times and it was a while ago. I'm not there, yet.LOL

steelemagnolia63 01-15-2009 08:29 PM

I am very interested in this birth certificate that claims a Cherokee chief on it. When in lets say 99.999999% of births didn't list anything of the sort. matter of fact until very recent generations anyone of native descent in many states especially in the south were listed as Colored, because you were either black or white, there was no red, yellow or green (in the case of Martians). Many people from earlier generations didn't even have birth certificates. Their births were just recorded in a family bible, or registered with the county seat. My father's birth was just listed in the family bible (as are many generations of both my mother's and father's family). When my Father needed a birth certificate about 25 years ago we had to produce the family bible and several notorized letters from members of the family who were present at his birth. So I'd love to see this birth certificate that acknowledges a chief and a Native American. I am sure that there were some progressive states that listed native heritage but I doubt back in your great x whatever grandmother's case that it was during a time that there were any progressive states....

and no my grandmother was not a princess, my grandfather was not the chief, but I am a very proud Cherokee of mixed blood (Irish and Scot) whose family decided that Texas was the place to be.

timmy tiger 01-15-2009 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelemagnolia63 (Post 1258066)
I am very interested in this birth certificate that claims a Cherokee chief on it. When in lets say 99.999999% of births didn't list anything of the sort. matter of fact until very recent generations anyone of native descent in many states especially in the south were listed as Colored, because you were either black or white, there was no red, yellow or green (in the case of Martians). Many people from earlier generations didn't even have birth certificates. Their births were just recorded in a family bible, or registered with the county seat. My father's birth was just listed in the family bible (as are many generations of both my mother's and father's family). When my Father needed a birth certificate about 25 years ago we had to produce the family bible and several notorized letters from members of the family who were present at his birth. So I'd love to see this birth certificate that acknowledges a chief and a Native American. I am sure that there were some progressive states that listed native heritage but I doubt back in your great x whatever grandmother's case that it was during a time that there were any progressive states....


Actually many states started recording births around 1908. Although it did not become a federal rule until around the 1950's, so many before then may not have existed and then in most cases you or that person would have to go to the county Vital Records office and get a "Delayed" birth Cert. I've seen a few of those. And some states do have a few (And I do mean a few, not all births) birth and/or death records back to the 1850's, but those are held in the county Clerks office, usually or at the Registrar of Deeds office--depending on that state. As for the Native ones, again that was depending on the states and many times they didn't get done. Now if there was a tribal roll done, then you could use that as proof of birth, and now some of those list Chief's, but I've never seen a birth cert either that mentioned that. Not saying that it's not possible, just have never seen one, yet.

steelemagnolia63 01-15-2009 08:52 PM

Very true what you say about prior to the 50's. Most states did not issue a birth certificate prior to that like they do now when you are born. My Father's birth certificate states that is a delayed certificate or something to that effect. There is also a notation of it being a home birth. A great deal of people relied on batismial(sp) records for proof of birth prior to the "birth certicate" but I doubt that they would have noted a Chief or Native American.

timmy tiger 01-15-2009 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelemagnolia63 (Post 1258071)
Very true what you say about prior to the 50's. Most states did not issue a birth certificate prior to that like they do now when you are born. My Father's birth certificate states that is a delayed certificate or something to that effect. There is also a notation of it being a home birth. A great deal of people relied on batismial(sp) records for proof of birth prior to the "birth certicate" but I doubt that they would have noted a Chief or Native American.

Yes, but that all depends also on who did the baptism and where it was done. Some of them that were done on a reservation very well might have, I don't know for sure--but I sure wouldn't doubt it in some cases. But that would only have been if the father at that time was actually the Chief, not someone farther down the line. And they also use to use family bibles and school enrollment records for proof of birth.

steelemagnolia63 01-15-2009 09:07 PM

I am just generalizing on the baptismal certificate noting Native American. having never seen one that noted it.

Interesting thought here is that I have never been required to provide proof of my heritage to dance anywhere. I could if I had to it would be a pain since I don't tote the family documents around in my basket of tricks that I take to the circle with me. Most of us (speaking of my family) can recite the names of our lineage without to much trouble. We are lucky that way. My brothers would just want to know who are you to questions ours... You know that old show me yours and I'll show you mine thing..... Interesting, I will have to rattle a few lines to see if they have ever been put over the fire at the circle... I understand at certain ceremonies so that you are with the right clan and so on...

and a thought on the hair thing.. that makes me laugh since a guy once told me that he could tell that my dark brown hair made me NDN... I told him funny since it's been out of a bottle since I was 16 and was turning gray faster than I care to think about....

SuzzeQ4 01-15-2009 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmy tiger (Post 1258036)
Be very very careful there Suzze, there not all correct either. Many times there were more then one person with the same name and many times people have connected the wrong ones to the wrong parents. This happens not just with the NDN people, but all backgrounds. There are records all the way back to the late 1700's/early 1800's and much of it is documented. That's what I use, is tribal and federal records. I have personally found many errors with some of the ones on line. But they are good to give you an idea on how well the people have been documented over the years and who's who. You can find alot of good info out there that is accurate, but some is not. I found one that listed some of Drowning Bear's children with the wrong names 'cause according to the Rolls and other Tribal records that child's parents were someone else.LOL Just an FYI, that's all.

curiosity timmy, with the whole conversation and with eveyone and their brother claimming to be Cherokee, just wondered, found it interesting. Not relevant to my roots though.

steelemagnolia63 01-15-2009 09:20 PM

I am thinking about going over to Alaska and seeing if the Innuits will adopt me.... maybe I can be their princess.... BTW I think that it's cold enough here in PA to be Innuit....

timmy tiger 01-15-2009 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 (Post 1258076)
curiosity timmy, with the whole conversation and with eveyone and their brother claimming to be Cherokee, just wondered, found it interesting. Not relevant to my roots though.


Oh I know you are not Cherokee, I get curious too and go looking. Just letting you know, that's all. It's fun to look at though.LOL

Kamama 01-15-2009 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelemagnolia63 (Post 1258078)
I am thinking about going over to Alaska and seeing if the Innuits will adopt me.... maybe I can be their princess.... BTW I think that it's cold enough here in PA to be Innuit....

I was in PA today, b-friend had a VA appointment, and you're right, it was cold enough there. brrrrrrr

Josiah 01-15-2009 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmy tiger (Post 1258067)
Actually many states started recording births around 1908. Although it did not become a federal rule until around the 1950's, so many before then may not have existed and then in most cases you or that person would have to go to the county Vital Records office and get a "Delayed" birth Cert. I've seen a few of those. And some states do have a few (And I do mean a few, not all births) birth and/or death records back to the 1850's, but those are held in the county Clerks office, usually or at the Registrar of Deeds office--depending on that state. As for the Native ones, again that was depending on the states and many times they didn't get done. Now if there was a tribal roll done, then you could use that as proof of birth, and now some of those list Chief's, but I've never seen a birth cert either that mentioned that. Not saying that it's not possible, just have never seen one, yet.


True TT

But in this case we are talking 100 years before that, say around 1800...
Since Our Chiefs were not Hereditary why would the fact be printed on a Birth Certificate in the first place???

I dont have Birth Certificates for my Grandmother or earlier they were all Home births
Dad was the first born at a Hospital at the Indian Hospital in Tahlequah

timmy tiger 01-15-2009 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josiah (Post 1258087)
True TT

But in this case we are talking 100 years before that, say around 1800...
Since Our Chiefs were not Hereditary why would the fact be printed on a Birth Certificate in the first place???

I dont have Birth Certificates for my Grandmother or earlier they were all Home births
Dad was the first born at a Hospital at the Indian Hospital in Tahlequah

Yep, and that was the point that I was getting at too, but didn't say it.LOL After all, Chief Drowning Bear was the chief back in 1838, John Ross was Chief around the same time for those who went to OK (I've heard he was before then too, but haven't gotten there, yet.) and Dragging Canoe was back during that same time period as well. And they sure aren't mentioned on any of the descendants birth cert's that I know, I've seen many of their birth certs.LOL

steelemagnolia63 01-15-2009 09:49 PM

I think that I want to photo shop my BC to say that I am a PRINCESS darn it....

Josiah 01-15-2009 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmy tiger (Post 1258091)
Yep, and that was the point that I was getting at too, but didn't say it.LOL After all, Chief Drowning Bear was the chief back in 1838, John Ross was Chief around the same time for those who went to OK (I've heard he was before then too, but haven't gotten there, yet.) and Dragging Canoe was back during that same time period as well. And they sure aren't mentioned on any of the descendants birth cert's that I know, I've seen many of their birth certs.LOL

Chief John Ross is well documented here in Oklahoma His Family is part of what is Called 1st Family is a big thing here in Oklahoma
During the Holiday they all meet and have a picnic and chat and converse

steelemagnolia63 01-15-2009 10:05 PM

I bet they dance too!!!!

timmy tiger 01-15-2009 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josiah (Post 1258100)
Chief John Ross is well documented here in Oklahoma His Family is part of what is Called 1st Family is a big thing here in Oklahoma
During the Holiday they all meet and have a picnic and chat and converse

Oh yeah, I sure do know that he is very well documented, that's how I found those one records. There are alot of actual records out there on him, alot of them. I just haven't done all that much in his family, yet.LOL

But that sure sounds like fun to me.

steelemagnolia63 01-15-2009 10:13 PM

bet that we could have a good time... would be fun to chat and stuff with a big family of descendants.....

timmy tiger 01-15-2009 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelemagnolia63 (Post 1258111)
bet that we could have a good time... would be fun to chat and stuff with a big family of descendants.....


Shoot I don't have to go all the way to OK for that.LOL I get that all the time. And we do have a great time.

steelemagnolia63 01-15-2009 10:21 PM

I have to go all the way to Texas to hang out with mine.. so I could make a stop in OK to visit with someone else's folk.....

Dancing Crow's family is small and I miss lots of cousins, aunts, uncles and my people.....

PappyRoach 01-15-2009 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carolann (Post 1257731)
PappyRoach , The chief reference comes from my mothers side and it is in old papers and on a birth certificate, that it states along with the fathers name in parenthesis is Cherokee Chief .

On my fathers side it was one of my elders who was ousted out of her tribe or family ( which ever you prefer ) . My father had our roots traced and it was confirmed as to that incident . They did not approve of him and they were against the white man and his ways .

Take it as you wish , but that is what I know .

Thats is utterly ridiculous. And if you had an idea just how ridiculous it is you would know that these titles and herrditary positions are not posted on birth certificates.. I am fully aware of whom theperson and family is that can truthfully lay caim to this and beleive me it is not of your family. Your very first sentence proves you wrong. So what I am saying isd you should not be making claims such as this, because such things are not taken lightly. If you really had a member of your Family that had the Cheifstitle then you all would be living on the Cherokee Rez, not down there in Floriduh or texas or wherever


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:05 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
Copyright 2006, PowWows.com, LLC