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Old 10-17-2005, 04:51 PM   #1
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Dine' bashing

This post is in reference to comments made in the "what is with navajo's and southern style dancing" thread.

At the Gathering back maybe 9 years ago, Blacklodge and Cozad were both present. During one of the intertribal dances, Blacklodge sang a well-known Cozad song. They performed a very impressive rendition of that song. At the conclusion of that song, the Cozad singers came over and put money on the drum, shook all the BL singers hands and gave two thumbs up. It appeared to me, that the Cozad singers were flattered and proud to have their song sung by BL. To me, this defined the essence of "Pow Wow".

The native people here, who refer to us Dine' as copycats, damned people, snobs, and know-it-all, have given me a different view and meaning of what "Pow Wow" is becoming.

I realize, as well as others here (Dine' and non-Dine'), that we have infringed on what they feel belongs to them. There's really not much we (individually) can do about this. These are individual choices. As was said countless times, there are Dine' who have the privilege to wear and dance non-Dine' styles, for they were gifted this practice. Albeit, there are others who have found that they can cash in on monetary prizes and awards, without haven't been given that privilege. Please suggest a way to distinguish one from the other. The only way I can distinguish this, is to simply ask that person simple questions that will satisfy my curiosity. So, what will you do if you find a Dine', Hopi, Pueblo person who didn't have this privilege? Chastise them on the internet? Call them names? How will this help you? Will it just get you friends, so that you can fuel one another's venting and flaming? For me, I wouldn't like to have friends who are like that.

I have no authority to speak on every Dine's behalf, nor can I forbid them to practice other cultures' traditions of song and dance. For the Dine' whom I know, that dance, they are respectful perfectionists that want to experience the essence of Pow Wow that I witnessed back at the Gathering. Some have perfected their gift so much, that it is beginning to infringe on other dancers' notoriety and purses.

513 years ago, our dances flourished and were held with a meaning behind each and everyone. Later, as the numbers of our people diminished, we held on to what little remained in the minds of those who survived. Different nations shared their rituals and songs in hope that the shear numbers of singers and dancers would help their shared goals. Why does this have to change?

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Old 10-17-2005, 06:02 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vince_j
This post is in reference to comments made in the "what is with navajo's and southern style dancing" thread.

At the Gathering back maybe 9 years ago, Blacklodge and Cozad were both present. During one of the intertribal dances, Blacklodge sang a well-known Cozad song. They performed a very impressive rendition of that song. At the conclusion of that song, the Cozad singers came over and put money on the drum, shook all the BL singers hands and gave two thumbs up. It appeared to me, that the Cozad singers were flattered and proud to have their song sung by BL. To me, this defined the essence of "Pow Wow".

The native people here, who refer to us Dine' as copycats, damned people, snobs, and know-it-all, have given me a different view and meaning of what "Pow Wow" is becoming.

I realize, as well as others here (Dine' and non-Dine'), that we have infringed on what they feel belongs to them. There's really not much we (individually) can do about this. These are individual choices. As was said countless times, there are Dine' who have the privilege to wear and dance non-Dine' styles, for they were gifted this practice. Albeit, there are others who have found that they can cash in on monetary prizes and awards, without haven't been given that privilege. Please suggest a way to distinguish one from the other. The only way I can distinguish this, is to simply ask that person simple questions that will satisfy my curiosity. So, what will you do if you find a Dine', Hopi, Pueblo person who didn't have this privilege? Chastise them on the internet? Call them names? How will this help you? Will it just get you friends, so that you can fuel one another's venting and flaming? For me, I wouldn't like to have friends who are like that.

I have no authority to speak on every Dine's behalf, nor can I forbid them to practice other cultures' traditions of song and dance. For the Dine' whom I know, that dance, they are respectful perfectionists that want to experience the essence of Pow Wow that I witnessed back at the Gathering. Some have perfected their gift so much, that it is beginning to infringe on other dancers' notoriety and purses.

513 years ago, our dances flourished and were held with a meaning behind each and everyone. Later, as the numbers of our people diminished, we held on to what little remained in the minds of those who survived. Different nations shared their rituals and songs in hope that the shear numbers of singers and dancers would help their shared goals. Why does this have to change?

My peace and harmony enter your hearts.


UMMM..... Well put vince j...
I think .. now, this is just my opinion.. i have noticed people start hollering when the infringement happens... i mean, when it is noticible. And it is noticible when the winnings take place. I think we should just let our Native brothers and sisters enjoy what they do best and that's singing and dancing. We are a very talented group of people. We have artistic talent that shows in our regelia and craftwork. We could create different songs and dance movements... non other like non-Native people.
So, i do not understand the bashing going on. I mean, there are people out there who wish they were Native and now we have our own people degrading each other... MAN!!!
that's my take.
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Old 10-17-2005, 06:12 PM   #3
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It is really a shame that someone would single out the Dineh but I for one do not harbor any ill feelings. There are two Dineh dancers who probably upped the ante for powwows during the early 90's. Those two are Darlene Beetso (jingle) and Antoinette Begay (fancy shawl).
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Old 10-17-2005, 06:28 PM   #4
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Are powwows truely "Intertribal?" Who owes it? Who is going to tell all of "us" Navajos what we can and can't do? Who is going to be the powwow police.

Many Navajo's who powwow are well known. Are they all stuckup or snobby? I have traveled all around the country. But very rarely does someone from another tribe come up and not act stuckup or snobby. Those traits are not exclusively Navajo. I would say many Indian people are shy about meeting new people, then after you get to know them you find out they are nice and friendly.

Honestly, out here on the rez, you rarely see or hear Navajo people making a spectacle of themselves (except maybe the younger generation). They do not want to be noticed or intrusive. Just like many other tribes.

I have attended powwows since I was a little girl. I think powwow snobbery is rampant, but not just from the Navajos.
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Old 10-17-2005, 06:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quicksilverwade
It is really a shame that someone would single out the Dineh but I for one do not harbor any ill feelings. There are two Dineh dancers who probably upped the ante for powwows during the early 90's. Those two are Darlene Beetso (jingle) and Antoinette Begay (fancy shawl).
I think this is the problem....

For some people to loose to Spike Draper, Shawn Yazzie, Tiffany Paskimin, Ursaloria Kanuho, Ursela Windy Boy, Sharon Brokeshoulder, Wanda Nelson, Nathan Largo, Candace McCabe. "It's just now fair......" (all whiney)
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Old 10-17-2005, 06:40 PM   #6
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Love 'em, Hate 'em...

Dang, I really thought this thread was about Dine' Bashas'.

I was wondering if mutton neck was on sale and if they bought pinon seeds. HAHAHA

Navajo to the bone! Pun intended!

I'll still powwow whether they like it or not!!! And you should too!!!
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Old 10-17-2005, 06:41 PM   #7
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quote

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Old 10-17-2005, 06:48 PM   #8
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I think

I think if the people think such and such tribe should not wear or dance any other style and if that is so important...why don't they know how to speak and write their own language. I mean, if they think traditionally and believe the ways of their tribe they should know how to speak their language at least. How in the world are they going to get the direct teachings of the elders who don't know english? Just my two cents.

And yeah, why can't everybody just get along and be proud of your American Indian heritage and the proud fact that we once owned the whole United States.
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:29 AM   #9
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Native people that bash or put down other native people over the topic of powwows are called,"POWWOW NAZIS!" Just my 2 cents.
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Old 10-18-2005, 06:44 PM   #10
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Waa Haa

Shaa Haanee, I thought it said "Dine Bashas" I was 'bout to point fingers and lips
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Old 10-18-2005, 07:25 PM   #11
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiyospaye Yazzie
Shaa Haanee, I thought it said "Dine Bashas" I was 'bout to point fingers and lips
Yeah, TY, point with those dry-cracked-weathered-lips-that-could-use-a-good-greasy-mutton-rib-to-heal lips to point with, eh?
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Old 10-18-2005, 07:28 PM   #12
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LOL!!!! gaw bet u got all excited for strawberry bashas' pop huh? yeah i was bout to pull out my keychain with my Bashas savings card, cuz fifty cents goes a long way :p.
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Old 10-19-2005, 12:53 AM   #13
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Angry Bad apples...red on the outside and white and rotten on the inside

It is a shame that we have "powwow nazis" (I use that word too). There are many very talented Dine' out there and have been powwow'ng since childhood and their parents before them, so I'm asking one question, "So who do we consider #1 on the Powwow list?" Is that what it means to bash other tribes and say you are infringing on our dances and regalias....naw, doesn't work that way. Last time I checked we all were humans, faced oppression, been to boarding schools, forced out of our lands, our braids cut and labeled "savages", the government wanting to "getting rid of all Indians". That goes from the East coast, Mid-west, Northern country, Southwest, West Coast, Pacific Northwest, and the Canadian tribes. So I think just because you are from a certain region of the U.S. doesn't make you a better tribe. Last time I checked, our reservations all looked alike too. We also happened to all have palettes for frybreads, LOL! I don't see the significance of bashing the Dine'? What if I started a thread and said the Oklahoma natives are stealing Dine' dances and think they should stop, because we are better? Or, the Cree shouldn't wear regalia from the Ojibway tribes? I think of all natives as equals. I don't care where you are from, we are all NATIVES.

Another concern of mine, most drums share songs throughout powwow country. It just doesn't make sense to me. You see all these recorders at the powwows. They are recording you words and talents, then share it with whomever and wherever in all four directions of the globe. If it's so prudent to save your songs and languages why are most drums and singers selling cd's at powwows? Think about it "powwow nazis" you have no right to tell a Dine' or another tribe what to do? How about some Dine' who are half-blooded? The maternal side teaching Dine' ways and the paternal teaching, let's say for example, Lakota. You don't have the right to tell an individual what to do? I think if certain people/tribes are defensive about their ways and dances, why take it to a powwow? Powwow is a public dance. Everytime there is a powwow we are opening ourselves to the rest of the world who can make copies of our dresses and dances and make profit off of it. Just think about it, the other race are so intrigued by our feathers, mocassins, dresses, beadwork, etc. they make replicas of them and we find fake feathers for sale at the next powwow with words like "Authentic Native American" then when you look at it, it's MADE IN CHINA. So if you think your dances and dresses should remain sacred and kept within the family, don't expose yourself to the public. The Dine' are very protective of their prayers and ceremonies. You don't see a yei'bi-chei dances going on in Cali do you? We don't sing our ceremonial chants at powwows because we believe it's a divine gift only shared among the people. Yes, there are the bad apples who record and sell them (shame on them), but majority of Dine' don't approve of other races at most sacred ceremonies and we don't go parading it around powwows. My point is, if you powwow, you have just opened yourself to free trade. Free trade to other tribes and other races. We can't change history and if you have a problem with the Dine', why don't you take up your arguement with every Dine' in powwow country and explain why you don't want that person dancing your style or singing your native songs, posting a thread on here only heats up the division and hatred for one another. It's quite sad that there is still discrimination and hatred in powwow country, in the end it'll be your own inner destruction.
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:24 AM   #14
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I think that 100% Navajos who have all four clans should stick to dressing their traditional style. That way everyone will know that you are proud of yourself and not trying to be another tribe and still dance pow-wow. I thought that Navajos are not supposed to wear eagle feathers on their heads unless you are a Hatathlie. I just think that other tribes don't like to see their clothes being worn like a costume. They do have designs that let you know what tribe they are or they wear their hair a certain way or their bustles are different from each other. It seems inconsiderate to just wear something from another tribe just because it looks pretty or because you could win some money. I myself don't like to see Southern Straight Dancers dance that are not from Oklahoma because this is directly where it comes from. I read Dine responses that are quite defensive and that's okay because we all know that they are not going to stop just because some object, but at least think about what you wear and why you are dancing your style.
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:53 AM   #15
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Aho' swbreez, you are correct. Dine aren't suppose to wear feathers on their heads and only said in prayers. I don't know though, even other tribes are expanding their talents and imaginations as far as regalia is concerned. Nothing is official as far as designs and colors, so they have expanded with style. I'm still proud of my Dine' background and I think we look beautiful in our traditional clothing, especially the rug dresses...........beautiful.
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Old 10-19-2005, 11:00 AM   #16
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There is something to be said about Pan- Indianism. That doesn't mean that tribes should give up their traditions or not be proud of who they are or where they come from but powwows are intertribal. If only the tribes that a dance style originated with were allowed to dance that style-then only a few tribes would be able to dance. I think that alot of people forget that native cultures are living cultures. Living cultures grow and change over time. If they didn't -we would all probably be like the indians in the Buffalo Bill show or all those spaghetti westerns. And like someone said....we all just indians. No one is better than anyone else. Just get along already!
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Old 10-19-2005, 11:04 AM   #17
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"Another concern of mine, most drums share songs throughout powwow country. It just doesn't make sense to me. You see all these recorders at the powwows. They are recording you words and talents, then share it with whomever and wherever in all four directions of the globe. If it's so prudent to save your songs and languages why are most drums and singers selling cd's at powwows?"

Our ceremonial songs are not out in the pow-wow arena. This statement just shows the naivety of people that don't know. Oklahoma tribes still have their ceremonial dances, family songs, etc. that are not put out outside of their tribal reserves. A lot of hatred and bad feelings have come out of the Navajo bashing threads. It's too bad. I think the biggest thing that impacted me (being from Oklahoma) is that while on the southwest pow-wow circuit I became friends with a Navajo family in Phoenix. The mom never danced, then one day she shows up in the arena with this psuedo southern outfit so she can dance in the southern golden age category because there was only a few dancers in that category. It was awful!!! Hah! It was ridiculous. I was embarrassed not only for me but for her. It's one thing to be given a dress or bustles to dance, it's another thing to rig up and just go after the $$$. This last winter I went back to see my friend in Phoenix and I saw a Navajo lady with an otter cap on. I asked her who her family was (thinking she was part Commanche). She replied that she was Navajo but she likes to wear the turban. I was like WTF!!?? So this is an example of how not to behave! When I think of a, say, an Osage lady going to one of the Navajo dances or Apache doings and walking in with a woven dress or Apache dress and all decked out, trying to be an authoritive person, this is would probably piss you off too.
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Old 10-19-2005, 11:39 AM   #18
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The sludge comes to the surface again..........

I brought ALL this BS up like two years ago or last year or something.......in my somewhat infamous, somewhat short lived thread.

"The Trouble With Navajos"


The consensus was basically that, other tribes for the most part, don't really give a damn, just so long as it's indians dancing/singing and not non-natives.

If you don't like us dancing it, then tell ALL of your people to stay back there in Oklahoma and not to come West, hell bent when you get here to be AUTHORITIANS on your ways, and so overly anxious to share your ways with the Peoples of the Southwest. You want to blame some people, blame Zotigh, blame Cozad for applauding and encouraging the spread of the Gourd Dance in the Southwest, blame the scads of Okies that married out here, that continue to marry out here (because there's really nothing on par with the hotty Navajo's in Oklahoma aye!! GAH!!!)

You don't want it out there, then reel it in and shut everything down that's outside of the "realm" of the Plains, basically, anything West of the Rockies, and East of the Mississippi. Put the kaibosh on it all.

I personally have had it with all the b!tchin' and whinin' I hear from a VERY small group of individuals that repeatedly get the gate at powwows simply because they can't compete with the highly skilled Navajos out there on the powwow circuit. Hell, if it wasn't for them, you wouldn't know what REAL competition was in the first place!! You'd be competing against the SAME old people weekend after weekend. I'd personally get bored with that.

Be sure to voice your complaints to the other tribes that never did powwow too; ie, the casino tribes on both coasts, in Arizona and in New Mexico. I'm sure they'd love to put that money towards other things besides big cash prizes at powwows.

Give it a rest already......accept your inferiority that you're not up to par when pitted against some Navajo on the powwow circuit and just accept your lot in life.

........you're not perfect................you weren't born Dine'!!!!

GAH!!!!!!!!!!! damn that's rugged!
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Old 10-19-2005, 11:55 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivanasnagu
"Another concern of mine, most drums share songs throughout powwow country. It just doesn't make sense to me. You see all these recorders at the powwows. They are recording you words and talents, then share it with whomever and wherever in all four directions of the globe. If it's so prudent to save your songs and languages why are most drums and singers selling cd's at powwows?"

Our ceremonial songs are not out in the pow-wow arena. This statement just shows the naivety of people that don't know. Oklahoma tribes still have their ceremonial dances, family songs, etc. that are not put out outside of their tribal reserves. A lot of hatred and bad feelings have come out of the Navajo bashing threads. It's too bad. I think the biggest thing that impacted me (being from Oklahoma) is that while on the southwest pow-wow circuit I became friends with a Navajo family in Phoenix. The mom never danced, then one day she shows up in the arena with this psuedo southern outfit so she can dance in the southern golden age category because there was only a few dancers in that category. It was awful!!! Hah! It was ridiculous. I was embarrassed not only for me but for her. It's one thing to be given a dress or bustles to dance, it's another thing to rig up and just go after the $$$. This last winter I went back to see my friend in Phoenix and I saw a Navajo lady with an otter cap on. I asked her who her family was (thinking she was part Commanche). She replied that she was Navajo but she likes to wear the turban. I was like WTF!!?? So this is an example of how not to behave! When I think of a, say, an Osage lady going to one of the Navajo dances or Apache doings and walking in with a woven dress or Apache dress and all decked out, trying to be an authoritive person, this is would probably piss you off too.
I think the emphasis is on clothing here....or songs.

To address the clothes issue.

Personally speaking. I really don't give a rats *** if you or your momma want to wear a rug dress or dress up in a velveteen blouse/shirt.....wear our jewelry........who cares!!!!! Sure our clothes have meaning to them, but, we don't look to them to reaffirm who we are. We're indian........we don't rely on clothing to show who we are, or to show anyone who we are. We know we're indian..........plain and simple as that.


Navajos actually had a form of otter turban, although.......it was only worn by the men. I've got photos from the 1800's and right up to the early part of the 20th century if you'd like to see for yourself.......very southern plains looking items with peacock feathers, or eagle plumes or whole feathers, like black and white tail feathers worn at the back or front of the head. The fur was either otter, mountain lion or beaver.

Anyway......our hat was different....and worn for other purposes I'm sure.

I've never understood why some people don't just point things out to the ignorant Navajos. Like the lady in your example......you had the opportunity to correct a wrong, to tell her what the significance of that hat is, that it's not something to be toyed with or put on without some measure of understanding. You want or expect understanding from Navajos......then stop them and correct them, if you say it's not your place, then just do what you can and point them in the right direction, emphasize the importance and how it offends you. It's only going to continue if you don't act.
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ta'neeszahnii Techno
Yeah, TY, point with those dry-cracked-weathered-lips-that-could-use-a-good-greasy-mutton-rib-to-heal lips to point with, eh?
What gives you the right to bash me like dat. "H'mon I tot yer ma fren" LOL
BTW-you forgot crusty and peeling (or exfoliating or whatever flips your frybread), c'mon tell it how it really is.
S'why I didn't make it to TC Fair, I had to get my greasy-mutton-rib on at Rock Point. Ya hearing me. Nothing beats that kind of healing. LOL
You should came back to RP for some healing, after TC Fair I'm pretty sure you could use a little bit of the mutton healing way.
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