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Old 10-25-2004, 09:54 AM   #21
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I've always been taught, that, unless another drum group gives you permission to sing their songs, then you leave it alone. However, others have said that once it's on cd or tape, it's open game to use. I guess with this it's to each his own, but, I still go by what I was taught to have permission.
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Old 10-25-2004, 10:55 AM   #22
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I think that this is a good discussion and thanks to all of the knowledgeable people who have posted on this board. I had a question for you though. What do you do if you're a drum at a powwow and the head judge, m.c. or even the dancers themselves request a duck and dive or another "tribal" dance/song? Like many other styles of dance and song, the duck and dive has made its way to the east coast, north, west,south, everywhere. Our drum has been asked to sing this song many times at powwows. I hope we are singing it correctly and would really appreciate someone offering advice about how to sing it correctly and provide the meaning of the dance and the song.

It is the same with the double-beat crow hop. A few years ago we were at this powwow and they used the "quick draw" system for the last drum contest song. Unlucky for us, we picked the double-beat, a song we had never sung before. We had heard another group sing this type of song and knew the basic beat, but didn't know a specific song. We adapted a chicken dance song (there's another one!) to the double-beat and pulled it off. Now really, was it fair for the double-beat to be included in that contest? Was the powwow committee respecting the tribal origin of that dance? I don't think so. How would you like it if you had to sing a canoe dance or robin dance song for contest?
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Old 10-25-2004, 11:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saponi4ever
I think that this is a good discussion and thanks to all of the knowledgeable people who have posted on this board. I had a question for you though. What do you do if you're a drum at a powwow and the head judge, m.c. or even the dancers themselves request a duck and dive or another "tribal" dance/song? Like many other styles of dance and song, the duck and dive has made its way to the east coast, north, west,south, everywhere. Our drum has been asked to sing this song many times at powwows. I hope we are singing it correctly and would really appreciate someone offering advice about how to sing it correctly and provide the meaning of the dance and the song.

It is the same with the double-beat crow hop. A few years ago we were at this powwow and they used the "quick draw" system for the last drum contest song. Unlucky for us, we picked the double-beat, a song we had never sung before. We had heard another group sing this type of song and knew the basic beat, but didn't know a specific song. We adapted a chicken dance song (there's another one!) to the double-beat and pulled it off. Now really, was it fair for the double-beat to be included in that contest? Was the powwow committee respecting the tribal origin of that dance? I don't think so. How would you like it if you had to sing a canoe dance or robin dance song for contest?
I guess I'm old-fashioned, but why didn't you guys just pass the song? I had never heard of duck-n-dive until last year so the group I sing with now won't sing that song...we don't have that right. Personally, I never liked the idea of southern drums singing for jingle dress or grass dance and northern guys singing for straight dancers.

Coming up as a singer, I was always taught to have a song for every occassion, but it seems now there are more occasions. :) I agree that committees put drums in vicarious positions when requiring them to sing certain songs for contests. Maybe contests should just be judged on intertribals?
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Old 10-25-2004, 12:11 PM   #24
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It is true, alot of drums are called on to sing the duck n dive nowadays. I've heard it sung correctly and I've heard it butchered to death. Same w/ the double-beat. My two cents worth concerns the doublebeat-There's a cd by MAD DOG SINGERS (whoohooo...I remember them!) w/ nothing but dblebeats. I asked a couple of the Crow fellas but they long sold theirs. I was told Mister (Baker) may have some, or some of the trading posts, or online.
I agree w/ everyones comments about going to someone of that tribe for permission, only makes sense, that way your sure to cover your ahem...and given the correct way to sing it.
And for gosh sakes, don't give a duck n dive to the women!!!! (tho most AD's know it's a warriors song)
And now another story...This one time..(not at band camp) a few yrs back at a powwow they asked a crow man (Leon OE) and a crow woman to exhibition their doublebeat, the next song they gave them a duckndive, the woman walked off and the announcer kept telling her over the mic, "go ahead and dance with him", she'd just smile and stand off to the side! Later on, I overheard them teasing each other about it. So I think they were cool about and and wern't offended
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Old 10-25-2004, 03:51 PM   #25
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I don't get it

I don't get it....I hear this "Crow" style duck and dive and it just sounds like an off tune version of the duck and dive the Nez Perce have. I have been going to Pow Wows since I was little, all over the country I saw these Crows and not once since a few years back at Stanford Pow Wow, did I see them dance any form of the duck and dive. Then I heard the duck and dive sung for Grass dancers, which made me laugh, and this was done over in Minnesota. Someone over there on the Plains needs to get their story straight, cuz Nez Perce folks had down since 1877. There is archival evidence supporting the derivation of the Duck and Dive within Nez Perce culture. Loran Olson did several recordings, available at WSU. He worked with a man, Sol Webb, who was in the Battle of Big Hole, or son of someone who was, and Mr Webb met the Nez Perce man who made this song.
Ten years ago, you would never have heard a Crow claim this song at a Pow Wow....so I don't get it. It probably doesn't even matter now, because no one was there and these songs exist now...woulda crow tell me the derivation of the dip song in their culture?
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Old 10-25-2004, 03:59 PM   #26
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalo69
Nez Perce folks had down since 1877. There is archival evidence supporting the derivation of the Duck and Dive within Nez Perce culture. Loran Olson did several recordings, available at WSU. He worked with a man, Sol Webb, who was in the Battle of Big Hole, or son of someone who was, and Mr Webb met the Nez Perce man who made this song.
Ten years ago, you would never have heard a Crow claim this song at a Pow Wow....so I don't get it. It probably doesn't even matter now, because no one was there and these songs exist now...woulda crow tell me the derivation of the dip song in their culture?
:Chatter Easy now, I think most people know that the Duck and Dive is from the Nez Perce and not the Crow. Even Dale Old Horn knows that :Chatter.

Anyway... You throw out a lot of info that about WSU (about recordings) that I recently heard at a Plateau People's Conference, were you there??? Just wondering....
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Old 10-29-2004, 01:13 AM   #27
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The Duck and Dive.....lol...what a dance. Its a good dance when the dancers know the songs.
lol....the thing is though is that there are only two duck and dive songs drum groups sing. The dancers know those two songs real good.
When a drum group sings another duck and dive song other than the usual two, the dancers complain that the song was not good enough. LOL..give me a break.

more duck and dive songs are needed because the usual two are being overused. If the dancers want a duck and dive song (like they always do) they better expect new duck and dive songs to come out and not complain.
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Old 10-29-2004, 11:27 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by ojibway_tribe
more duck and dive songs are needed because the usual two are being overused. If the dancers want a duck and dive song (like they always do) they better expect new duck and dive songs to come out and not complain.
If people really want "new" Duck -n- Dive songs, then they better go talk to the elders about them.

The Nez Perce version is a song that someone didn't just sit down and think of to give the dancers something to dance to, but to tell them of the battle that took place. Some of me elders have told me that it was the battle of Whitebird in Idaho, where not a single Nez Perce was killed, and it was because they were Ducking and Diving very effectively.

Also, if you go to Nez Perce country and the song is sang, usually the Whip man or woman will request everyone stand to respect the Duck -n- Dive due to it's meaning.
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Old 10-29-2004, 12:31 PM   #29
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Ignorant

If everyone knew and understood that the Duck and Dive is Nez Perce, then we really wouldn't be hearing different versions of it being sung by tribes such as the Mandan, Crow and Ojib. I have heard Dale claim this song as Crow, so I am not sure that he knows its originally Nez perce. In fact its a debate that Otis and him have been having for a bit of time. I was told by Otis that he and Dale have, I quote, "agreed to disagree." This is of course depending on whether or not Dale has changed his tune within the past year.
I agree with Kneegrow native about what he says about this song.
If people want to make up their culture as they go along.. they can go ahead....but this song has a connection to a specific piece of land, a connection to a group of people and a connection to one point in time...that is why the Duck and Dive will forever be Nez Perce...regardless of any other variation posed as a "duck and dive" If anyone can show me this same connection to any other group, time or place...by all means prove me wrong...I would love to see you try
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Old 10-29-2004, 04:16 PM   #30
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Damn...i think GVILL got a good sense of how to DUCK & DIVE from these posts....good lesson fellas.
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