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Old 01-16-2007, 12:50 AM   #21
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Old 01-17-2007, 04:35 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainboy View Post
OK, one last time for the record.
Its a good effort by the GON staff to have a fairness doctrine.
However, lets get real. It is humanly impossible to judge a catagory of dancers fairly when they have been split into more than one group. There are just too many dancers moving around for the human eyeball. Especially at GON. The number of dancers in each catagory is overwhelming. These judges naturally gravitate towards dancers that are already well known and have an established history of winning. Fair? No. But thats just the way it is. In addition, Ill bet some of these judges are already looking for dancers they know at the beginning of the competition, just to make their judging easier.
In Oklahoma, split group contests are treated differently than I've seen by more northern influenced powwows or run by those that just don't know (now no offense! ). I have been on the Cali circuit, GON an other big powwows and witnessed unfairness when it comes to splitting a division into groups. Below is a logical and fair way to split a contest into groups:

Regardless of how many groups you have, two, three or four, you run each group like individual contests by picking 1-2-3 (or however many places you have) from each group. Then, after all groups have had the opportunity to compete, you call up the winners of each group all at once and they have one more go around called 'FINALS' - they are all judged and you pick your winners from that.

Using this method you will not have all of the winners from one group unless all of your top dancers are in one group. Its an easy concept but it's difficult for some people to understand. Some AD's will complain that it's time consuming, but when you have that kind of $$$ on the line, it's best to be fair and keep your reputation in tact.
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Old 01-17-2007, 07:20 PM   #23
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Well said!
All powwows with split groups in a catagory should follow this!
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Old 01-30-2007, 03:35 PM   #24
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However.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivanasnagu View Post
In Oklahoma, split group contests are treated differently than I've seen by more northern influenced powwows or run by those that just don't know (now no offense! ). I have been on the Cali circuit, GON an other big powwows and witnessed unfairness when it comes to splitting a division into groups. Below is a logical and fair way to split a contest into groups:

Regardless of how many groups you have, two, three or four, you run each group like individual contests by picking 1-2-3 (or however many places you have) from each group. Then, after all groups have had the opportunity to compete, you call up the winners of each group all at once and they have one more go around called 'FINALS' - they are all judged and you pick your winners from that.

Using this method you will not have all of the winners from one group unless all of your top dancers are in one group. Its an easy concept but it's difficult for some people to understand. Some AD's will complain that it's time consuming, but when you have that kind of $$$ on the line, it's best to be fair and keep your reputation in tact.
If you end up in a "Good Group or ?" that, and the song you get, will still effect your chances, especially at GON where some drum groups come to learn to sing or practice so they can say they sung at GON. unfortunately there will never be fairness with more than one group... and we know what space permits at GON. LUCK that's what it is!
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:49 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NanGrand View Post
If you end up in a "Good Group or ?" that, and the song you get, will still effect your chances, especially at GON where some drum groups come to learn to sing or practice so they can say they sung at GON. unfortunately there will never be fairness with more than one group... and we know what space permits at GON. LUCK that's what it is!
Well, allowing start up groups to sing for contests is just not going to work! Host drums should be used for contest dancing. I thought that was a given. GON - always drama in some way or fashion. That's why I haven't danced there in a long time. I prefer to enjoy the art show, watch the powwow and visit with my friends and relatives. I leave the competition to the hard core powwow folks.
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Old 02-14-2007, 01:32 AM   #26
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When powows are discussed and champions are mentioned, the subject of "judging" and "fairness" always comes up. As for GON, I have danced their many,many times in the Mens' Grass Category. One year a man approached me and said "this year you will win first" and I did. Fairness??????. And, Mr Mathews has said "he makes Champions".How?????
Last year I talked with the Head Dancing judge Mr.Olney and he told he was only allowed to pick five judges out of a total of ten judges. The other five judges were students from there, and they were allowed to judge every "go-round". "Fair"????? And they were students from one tribe."Fair"?????. At any large powwow,anywhere, Tribal affiliation is very important. I know. Even though I know there is going to be no "Fairness" at GON, I will still be attending and still competing in the "Grass Dance". The love of dancing and meeting freinds is still dominant in my Indian Culture. Another thing, there will never be a fair powwow!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-14-2007, 01:13 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 53lone View Post
And they were students from one tribe."Fair"?????. At any large powwow,anywhere, Tribal affiliation is very important. I know. Even though I know there is going to be no "Fairness" at GON, I will still be attending and still competing in the "Grass Dance". The love of dancing and meeting freinds is still dominant in my Indian Culture. Another thing, there will never be a fair powwow!!!!!!!!!!!!
Only if you did something like grab and appoint every tenth dancer who walked in the door and made them judge a dance they did not participate in. Then it would be totally random, and nobody would know ahead of time who the judges would be. Or turn it into a complete popularity contest and let the spectators vote (nah, bad idea).
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Old 02-14-2007, 02:41 PM   #28
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What's really sickening too, is seeing "big name" dancers walking around the powwow making a big scene on the edge of the arena, talking to people, joking, flirting, loud, so as to get noticed. You know...working the crowd. It helps them to win. Of course, they would say they were just being friendly.

Where is the tradition? Honor?
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Old 02-19-2007, 06:21 PM   #29
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so wait...this year...gathering is on a monday tuesday and a wednesday???that cant be right??
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Old 02-20-2007, 07:57 PM   #30
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Theory ... just a theory....

It sounds like they were originally thinking about the younger age categories and not necessarily the big picture when they wrote the rule down. If you have a 14-15 year old SHORT dancer who's been a superstar since he was five, he could more easily enter the 12 and under content and wipe the category than go up against other teens. Not that he would, but he could. So they had an "AHA!" moment and came up with that rule.
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Old 02-21-2007, 02:35 PM   #31
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Bottom line, singing or dancing, when it comes to dancing/singing against more popular, or prettier opponets, if you want to win, you have do dance/sing CIRCLES around them, or your not going to get noticed. It's just the way it is. You think that the younger dancer is just gonna hop into that adult category and have it made, your wrong. They're gonna have to work thelr way into that place they're shooting for...It's not gonna be easy, because the judges aren't going to be looking for someone half the size of everyone else. Unless ofcourse it's rigged, like everyother powwow in the U.S. AND Canada...am I right or am I right?
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Old 02-21-2007, 03:14 PM   #32
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How do you guys feel about the ladies who made these beautiful creations on ultrasuede and can't dance in northern buckskin category?
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Old 02-21-2007, 07:07 PM   #33
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dancing in your own age category...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii View Post
All these extra rules. People should just dance their own age category. That's it. No controversy, no hurt feelings. Just dance. Respect each other.
Here! Here! good words for all of us to follow!
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Old 02-21-2007, 07:12 PM   #34
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dancing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivanasnagu View Post
In Oklahoma, split group contests are treated differently than I've seen by more northern influenced powwows or run by those that just don't know (now no offense! ). I have been on the Cali circuit, GON an other big powwows and witnessed unfairness when it comes to splitting a division into groups. Below is a logical and fair way to split a contest into groups:

Regardless of how many groups you have, two, three or four, you run each group like individual contests by picking 1-2-3 (or however many places you have) from each group. Then, after all groups have had the opportunity to compete, you call up the winners of each group all at once and they have one more go around called 'FINALS' - they are all judged and you pick your winners from that.

Using this method you will not have all of the winners from one group unless all of your top dancers are in one group. Its an easy concept but it's difficult for some people to understand. Some AD's will complain that it's time consuming, but when you have that kind of $$$ on the line, it's best to be fair and keep your reputation in tact.
I think it would ge great if all powwows could follow this concept, however is that possible? It sure would be nice, than all good dancers could have a chance, not just the famous ones!
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Old 02-21-2007, 07:16 PM   #35
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dancing and trying to teach our children about good ways of doing things...

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Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii View Post
It all boils down to respect, that's all. Wait your turn, you'll get there.

Many people asked my son why he never put his daughter into the competitive category (6 -12). She dances very well. His answer - she's not 6 yet. I was very proud of him.

She did enter once. At Schemitzun, there was a 12 and under category special. She got fourth.

So...... it begins at a early age. Teach the children to respect the older ones and it'll carry on into later life. They will always remember to respect the elders. It is the way of native people.

There are little lessons in all aspects of life and this is one of them.
I agree, it is tough to keep giving this message to my own children, why?, unfortunately there is not enough of this going on, that is why we are in the state we are in...but if more and more people teach their little ones, it will come full circle.
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Old 03-04-2007, 09:25 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by superndngyrl View Post
How do you guys feel about the ladies who made these beautiful creations on ultrasuede and can't dance in northern buckskin category?

I thought they changed that this year? No?
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:55 PM   #37
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The Key word is BUCKSKIN

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How do you guys feel about the ladies who made these beautiful creations on ultrasuede and can't dance in northern buckskin category?

Would you see a Southern Buckskin dancer with buckskin colored ribbon and some type of fabric dancing in the Southern Buckskin category. That is why there is "Cloth Category". and in my opinion that is the way it should stay.

ps. I don't care for Southern Straight dancers using buckskin colored fabric for leggins either or fake fur for otter caps or trailers! get real my people.

2cents
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Old 03-07-2007, 02:05 PM   #38
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Still... the cloth versus buckskin in northern category is not the focus of the contest. Its the style. Morongo has it right by separating stationary and mobile dancers.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:13 PM   #39
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Quote:
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Still... the cloth versus buckskin in northern category is not the focus of the contest. Its the style. Morongo has it right by separating stationary and mobile dancers.
I agree. In Women's Southern Traditional, you can split by cloth and buckskin, because the dress dictates the difference. Whereas, in Women's Northen Traditional the dance steps dictates the difference, i.e. walk around or stationary.

It is really hard to judge the two different types against each other. For example, Southern does the buckskin have the edge, because her dress cost more, or is more traditional, or take way longer to make? Is that really fair? And for example, Northern how can you judge a women dancing awesome stationary vs the most graceful walk around. It's extremely challenging.

(Jeeh anyway.... sound like an old pro)
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Old 03-08-2007, 03:57 AM   #40
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Buckskin or Not Buckskin...

So I understand what the people at Gathering at saying, about wearing a REAL buckskin, however it could conceivably take as much time to make one out of ultrasuede and have it look just as good as the real thing. In this day and age of limited natural resources, I think it's ok to make subsitutions of material when a person wants to. Its about the dance, not the outfit...heck maybe they should just make them all dance in shorts and a t-shirt and then pick the winner!!

I remember back in the day when Northern was Northern, whether you wore a buckskin or cloth dress and whether you danced stationary or not. I think they should seperate it by buckskin and cloth and make them ALL dance one song stationary and one song walk around style. I think Northern dancers should be able to dance both styles and be judged on their skill as a 'northern dancer'.
It's practically the same thing as having southern cloth dancers dance to a straight song and then a round dance, to see a different style
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