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Old 07-28-2005, 09:17 AM   #1
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How did the 49 originate?

I'm interested in a history lesson. Any one know who, what, where when and how the 49 started?
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Old 09-01-2005, 08:53 AM   #2
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anyone?

I guess no one real knows?
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Old 09-01-2005, 10:05 AM   #3
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It started with a bunch of drunk azz natives who had nothing better to do with their time except raise hell, steal women and sing about it all night long..........wait we still do that!! LOL!!!! jk
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Old 09-01-2005, 10:50 AM   #4
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What I heard had something to do with a tribe from Oklahoma who stayed up all night and had to sing 49 songs for a family member for either healing or to come home from a war or something like that. But I have ABSOLUTELY no idea if that's true or not...and how it got from a healing/bring home soldier thing to a big *** party, I'm not sure but who cares cuz it's fun now! LMAO
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:26 AM   #5
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Good Reading

You might check out this website,

http://www.mit.edu/~glazner/thesis/glazner_thesis.pdf

particularly page 42.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:57 AM   #6
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Old 09-01-2005, 12:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Native Air
You might check out this website,

http://www.mit.edu/~glazner/thesis/glazner_thesis.pdf

particularly page 42.

Native A,

This is the only thesis quote that relates to 49:

"War Journey Songs are the basis for many “49” songs that are frequently sung today with English lyrics at late–night impromtu gatherings after powwows.2"


But it still leaves us in the dark of where the numerals "49" came from.


*L


Do you think the author of this MIT thesis could start a real War Journey (aka 49) song?
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:18 PM   #8
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I have no idea if this is accurate or not - only what I've been told by one source.

Fifty Indians from Oklahoma went to WWI, and 49 returned so they celebrated the 49 returning.

Any truth to this version? Partial truth?
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:23 PM   #9
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When did alcohol became a mainstay in "49s." Personally I think its Bull Pie, you don't need to drink to have a good time. In fact you don't need any kind of chemical crap in your body to have a good time. It's disturbing that some people laugh it off and joke and cont. to mess with body pollutants until it hits home for them either by fatality or other horendous outcome as a result of chemical body pollutants.
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:23 PM   #10
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What I heard was .......... the '49 originated back in 1849 era when natives were "recruited" to do the blasting and the mining for the railway to go through the plains and for the gold. These guys got so lonesome for their lovers and famil/tribe that they wanted to leave...... only way they thought they could keep them working (cause offering more money wouldn't mean anything) was to give them alcohol every weekend. That kept them there and when they gathered together on the weekends they would sing the songs of how they missed their former life.
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:26 PM   #11
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I heard the same story as Singerdad but I'm not sure 49's started out the way they are done today.
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:35 PM   #12
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WhoMe,
I was referring to the similarities of the "War Journey" songs being sung late into the nite as are the "49" songs. You are correct in that the author makes no mention of why they are called with the numerals "49".

As far as your other question, He implies on his website that he indeed does know the drum and has even taught others how to sing.
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Old 09-01-2005, 03:15 PM   #13
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Native Air
WhoMe, . . . As far as your other question, He implies on his website that he indeed does know the drum and has even taught others how to sing.

Native A,

Kewl! Then there's a good chance I may have sung with him at 6:00 am in the morning on a lonely country road ....

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Tiyospaye Y,

You don't have to drink to 49. You don't have to drink to 49. Did I say, "you don't have to drink to 49?"

I have done it numerous times! I have even been to 49's at Brigham Young University where no one drank. . . and we had a blast!

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50 C, p_town, SingerD and Mato,

They're all myths and legends...... *L
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Old 09-01-2005, 04:33 PM   #14
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the #'s "49" came from 2 cases plus 1 jug!

24 + 24 + 1 = 49

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Old 09-01-2005, 04:53 PM   #15
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Grrrrrr...

I hate when someone spends a short time learning Indian culture then tries to write about it. . . using their own values as their point of referrence.


Native A,

Your website for this guy named Chris is a perfect example of what I am speaking about:

"The War Dance as a dance is fairly straightforward:
many dancers independently dance with a double step in one direction around a circle. . . It was first observed as early as the Lewis and Clark expedition in 1804."

WTF!!!!

This author must think "Indian's AREN'T human!"

Didn't the tribes who made and participate in this dance also "observe it" BEFORE Lewis and Clark?

"Just because it isn't documented, doesn't mean it didn't happen."

If you have access to this author, please inform him that the history of this land that he is living in - started before 1492!
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Old 09-01-2005, 05:00 PM   #16
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Singerdad's story does sound more like whatever it was that I heard about how they started...I just couldn't remember the details of it!
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Old 09-01-2005, 10:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiiyaaniiasdzaa
I'm interested in a history lesson. Any one know who, what, where when and how the 49 started?
What is the point? It's trivia. Excess baggage. Read real history. 'Anthropology, Economics,Marketing, the evolution of law,etc...Execise your mind along with your body. Callenge yourself and others around you mentaly. Don't put yourself in the be a
Take this lightly. Just talkn like a big bro.
your future
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Old 09-02-2005, 09:14 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Grrrrrr...

I hate when someone spends a short time learning Indian culture then tries to write about it. . . using their own values as their point of referrence.


Native A,

Your website for this guy named Chris is a perfect example of what I am speaking about:

"The War Dance as a dance is fairly straightforward:
many dancers independently dance with a double step in one direction around a circle. . . It was first observed as early as the Lewis and Clark expedition in 1804."

WTF!!!!

This author must think "Indian's AREN'T human!"

Didn't the tribes who made and participate in this dance also "observe it" BEFORE Lewis and Clark?

"Just because it isn't documented, doesn't mean it didn't happen."

If you have access to this author, please inform him that the history of this land that he is living in - started before 1492!
WhoMe, I am in no way trying to defend this author, but I believe his intentions in writing "It was first observed as early as the Lewis and Clark expedition in 1804.", were to say that it wasn't 'documented' until then. At that time, was Lewis and Clark the first white men to come in contact with Indians in the Upper Plains and Northwest?

From my reading on this forum, you are a very knowledgeable individual concerning Indian History and Culture, do you agree with what his writing had to say about the history of songs? If not, I am interested in finding out the true history or orgin of our songs.
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Old 09-02-2005, 09:34 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Native Air
WhoMe, I am in no way trying to defend this author, but I believe his intentions in writing "It was first observed as early as the Lewis and Clark expedition in 1804.", were to say that it wasn't 'documented' until then. At that time, was Lewis and Clark the first white men to come in contact with Indians in the Upper Plains and Northwest?

From my reading on this forum, you are a very knowledgeable individual concerning Indian History and Culture, do you agree with what his writing had to say about the history of songs? If not, I am interested in finding out the true history or orgin of our songs.
Well, WhoMe, what is the origin of 49?
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Old 09-02-2005, 10:08 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Native Air
WhoMe, . . . I believe his intentions in writing "It was first observed as early as the Lewis and Clark expedition in 1804.", were to say that it wasn't 'documented' until then. At that time, was Lewis and Clark the first white men to come in contact with Indians in the Upper Plains and Northwest?

Native A,

I appreciate your post. It opens up some serious content for debate.

In my work, I often see scholars discredit "actual living Indian people" - in favor of some scholarly writing that they have come across that "interprets what a nonIndian thinks Indian culture is."

This brings the debate who is more credible in obtaining Indian information:

The Indian who lives his culture OR/VS the non Indian scholar who studies the Indian?

So according to what you posted of the author "Since Lewis and Clark were the first whiteman to see these dances" then was it the "first" time it was ever observed?"


I don't think so...


The whole issue of "modern" of interpretation of history should validate that "History occurred before it was written down AND observed by white men!"


In all actuality, whitemen had already come into contact with the Indians of the Upper Plains and Northwest prior to the Lewis and Clark expedition.

It just wasn't as highly documented.

"THERE IS A GREAT WEALTH OF NATIVE ORAL HISTORY AND KNOWLEDGE THAT IS NOT MEANT FOR SCHOLARS OR TO BE SHARED OUTSIDE OF OUR CULTURE."


__


Singerdad,

Yes I know the origin of the numerals "49," and how they came to be associated with modern day after hour activities.

I gained this knowledge in the center drum of the dance arena of Kiowa Gourd Clan ceremonials (during the Ohoma/wardance portion) from a group of individuals who I consider to be "the most knowledgeable" of this subject.

But, I am real hesitant to share this info on line. Can you imagine why?

It's really not that big of a deal*
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