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Old 09-12-2005, 04:52 PM   #21
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Allow me to explain the context of this post, because a couple of posters after this one seemed to get the impression that I was too harsh on Fringesnapper. This response is intended to incite discussion on whether anyone of us here has the final "say" on who wears what. I just chose FS's response because it brings forth some questions that I had noted below. If your feelings get/got hurt, I apologize for that. I have no intention to demean your post or suppress your input.

This response opens a new can of worms. So I've broken these statements down into separate thoughts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fringesnapper
I find it offensive and disrespectful to see other tribes emulating our dresses and dance when it's just for the almighty dollar. Our clothes are not just pow-wow clothes, they are our TRIBAL clothes, just as the chinon, silver and turqois are to the Navajo.
Then why do your tribal members wear these TRIBAL clothes to contest PWs in the first place? Competitors see your fellow "Northern Oklahomans" wear sacred family appliques/ribbonwork as competition regalia. This is an open competition and comes with a different set of rules.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fringesnapper
Our grandmas wore broadcloth skirts, glass beads, plumes, etc. just like we do today. We have family applique/ribbonwork patterns, they are not just cut out snowflakes!!!
SnowFlake applique wearer's beware: This "identity" also helps the Judges see which family you're from, which can open itself to impartiality to other competitors or "outsiders".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fringesnapper
One of the things that also wears on my nerves is the way the southern straight dance is mocked and often *******ized by those trying to emulate it.
I agree with you here, southern straight dancing is serious business.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fringesnapper
It is all about RESPECT. I say be proud of who you are, wear your own clothes if you must wear ours, please be RESPECTFUL.
Don't forget about the PROTOCOL either. Have your marriage certificates, tribal adoption records, and CDIBs at the ready.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fringesnapper
At Soboba this year they are having a Women's Traditional Southern Cloth contest (you must be in your own tribal regalia). This should be interesting!!
So if your beloved friend were to come dresses as "Northern Oklahoman", and competed for the Almight Dollar at Soboba, she would be DQ'd for tribal misrepresentation. To go one step further, would she require a permission slip from her Shawnee husband or a Harris family member as an exemption? Wow! that would be interesting....

Please don't take these viewpoints to serious. I have the utmost respect for people wanting to preserve their family traditions as well as tribal traditions. It's just that when you preclude others from sharing the beauty of your family or tribe, then you've become a "fascist" in a funny sort of way.
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Last edited by vince_j; 09-12-2005 at 07:14 PM.. Reason: Include a statement to clear the context of this message.
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Old 09-12-2005, 05:09 PM   #22
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This is a very delicate subject........ I did not intend to point out any particular tribe or group of people. I was merely trying to express my feelings about what I witness in the arena time and time again. It's not about anything but RESPECT. There are many fine dancers and singers coming from all 50-states. I just wish people would represent their own tribes and be proud of who they are and where they come from.That's the bottom line. If you got your panties in a bunch over my opinion, than S.O.L.
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Old 09-12-2005, 05:51 PM   #23
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Smile you go girl

Im Going To Have To Agree With My Sista From The So, I Don't Think She Is Trying To Offend Just Inform So Chill Out A Little Besides No One Knows How She Feels And We Should Let Her Voice Her Opinion.
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Old 09-12-2005, 07:54 PM   #24
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I started dancing buckskin. My tribe has always used buckskin dresses for ceremonies, such as the sunrise ceremony for young girls. All apaches are linked and have the same or alike dress/beadwork designs, and what not. All Apaches have the moccasins with the lil toe thing on the front, i used to dance with those a while back, and a kiowa fancy dancer said they wear the same thing, and i had no idea that the Kiowa Apaches were almost the same, even though they live in another state, and the Jicarilla wear the buckskin dresses that southern style dancers wear in contest. My buckskin has the beaded lines that have alot of geometrical designs that are on our buckskins, and i have used some tin on my dress just like our tribe uses, even though im not directly from oklahoma, my buckskin had my Apache influence on it, and we are all linked here. But Im not trying to get anyone offended, but i just thought i'd explain myself if anyone would happen to have a problem with my dress.
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Old 09-13-2005, 01:09 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkrock
i am so suprised that the desert indians are wanting to dance southern style if you are out there, who adopted you or who gave you the right to dance these styles. there are a few that wear otoe, kiowa, commanche, and they wear buckskins.

i just want to know whats going on with this regalia business.
Ummmm did you get beat in a contest by a navajo?? LOL is that where all these feelings are stemming from??
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Old 09-13-2005, 01:16 AM   #26
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Dictionaries are glib...and I drank my haterade too.

Seriously, I didn't mean to get anybody's panties in a twist for my comment about the dictionary... ONLY PUNKROCK.

Nonetheless, I understand the MISUNDERSTANDING that many may have. You see, it was OBVIOUS that PunkRock made a brand new account just to dig their nose into their own ingorance and have everyone on powwows.com to see and laugh. I sarcastically unveiled this without any literal bearing against any of my fellow Indigenous people. I just wanted PunkRock to know that he or she has to think before they type anything that pops into their head. I'm not putting myself on any type of pedestal just because I can count to 10. Wait, 10 comes after 2, right? Hahaha

Indigenous humor makes us who we are and is the trait that separates us from any other culture. If you can't take a joke. Don't blame me. And if you take offense to an insult aimed at another person... that is on you, buddy.

As for me being snobbish, Halloween's coming around and I think I'll be that this year. I understand the fact that, no matter what, my OPINIONS will be frowned upon because the Achille's heel of Indigenous people is the idea that someone is better than someone one else and if someone is wrong, you have to PROVE them wrong. Hence, the reason this thread was established. Now, I know all of you maybe thinking, "But, isn't NastyFlaps doing the same exact thing by replying to PunkRock's post". You bet your shorts I am. I am no better than anyone who posts on powwows.com. I know that. And now, you know that too.

I'm still holding my stomach from laughing so much about the thought that someone thinks I'm ALSO PunkRock. Hahaha. My knuckles don't drag on the floor, so unlike PunkRock, I think before I speak/type. NastyFlaps is the only handle I post with. I plan on posting more throughout the times, so, consider yourself warned.

Once again, I didn't mean to offend anyone... just PUNKROCK!

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Old 09-13-2005, 02:48 AM   #27
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Old 09-13-2005, 12:28 PM   #28
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I think all you ndns are soooooo funny. Keep talking cuz I have more fun reading all these dumbs posts than watching t.v.
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Old 09-13-2005, 12:52 PM   #29
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pow wow dress

several tribes out there in OK don't have what many of us would call pow wow clothes. ie 5 civilized tribes come to mind.
their regalia is for tribal dances (dine wear their own regalia for tribal dances)

the california indian tribes have great intertribal pow wows (thanks to the casinos and spirit of sharing) that you all attend, but do not have what most people would consider pow wow regalia. any complaints? ..........

so my point is.........

several ladies come to mind sharon, alicia, roberta, winona, buffy, leah and tate; those of us that were present when theses ladies danced at pow wows (some did) in their traditional regalia and some of these ladies gave away and were brought out in the most proper way. you really need to ask or know each individual to answer the questions initiated in this thread.

i remember some of these ladies when they were tiny tots and juniors.
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Old 09-13-2005, 01:10 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NastyFlaps
Indigenous humor makes us who we are and is the trait that separates us from any other culture. If you can't take a joke. Don't blame me. And if you take offense to an insult aimed at another person... that is on you, buddy.

As for me being snobbish, Halloween's coming around and I think I'll be that this year. I understand the fact that, no matter what, my OPINIONS will be frowned upon because the Achille's heel of Indigenous people is the idea that someone is better than someone one else and if someone is wrong, you have to PROVE them wrong. Hence, the reason this thread was established. ........
I'm still holding my stomach from laughing so much about the thought that someone thinks I'm ALSO PunkRock. Hahaha. My knuckles don't drag on the floor, so unlike PunkRock, I think before I speak/type. NastyFlaps is the only handle I post with. I plan on posting more throughout the times, so, consider yourself warned.

Once again, I didn't mean to offend anyone... just PUNKROCK!

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dear snobby...i was joking..
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Old 09-13-2005, 02:29 PM   #31
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I remember back in the day when I could go to a pow-wow and see a dancer and just know what tribe they belonged to. These days I look around at the women's styles of dress and while the details are different the styles are all becoming similar.

I know that designs, colors, and styles of dress can be similar to other tribes across the nation due to the fact a lot of raiding and trading happened. But why would you want to look like everybody else? I love seeing other tribal dress styles in a category.

One year at the Gathering I saw a young Navajo lady in the Miss Indian World dance competition. She was a southern cloth dancer who wore the velvet dress and boots that just told me what tribe she was. I thought that she just stood out not only because she was smooth but she was not dressed the way every other cloth dancer was dressed.

Make a statement by wearing your own tribal dress while you dance at the pow-wow. I agree with State when she said that competitions doesn't always change the origin of the dress, just spruces it up a bit. I like the fact that I can say I wear the same kind of dresses that all my grandma's and great-grandma's wore...just fancier.
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Old 09-13-2005, 02:43 PM   #32
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hello! i am so thrilled that you guy's responed. i ask a question and got some good answers. i hope you didn't go sleep made or anything. Tate Yazzie she's awsome !!!!
the question that i asked who adopted and who gave the right to....wear southern style outfits? tate yazzie for example who gave or who adopted her simple question simple answer. if your going to get mad maybe you should go to another room!!!
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Old 09-13-2005, 03:38 PM   #33
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the answer is cozad

Quote:
Originally Posted by punkrock
hello! i am so thrilled that you guy's responed. i ask a question and got some good answers. i hope you didn't go sleep made or anything. Tate Yazzie she's awsome !!!!
the question that i asked who adopted and who gave the right to....wear southern style outfits? tate yazzie for example who gave or who adopted her simple question simple answer. if your going to get mad maybe you should go to another room!!!
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Old 09-13-2005, 04:46 PM   #34
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Talking Hey Punkrock

TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT YOURSELF
MALE OR FEMALE
TRIBE
AGE
LOCATION
WHAT STYLE DO YOU DANCE

THEN MAYBE WE ALL CAN UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM?
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Old 09-13-2005, 06:03 PM   #35
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well i am a female from red dirt country, about 37ish. i haven't danced in a long time. but anyway i went to gathering and noticed a big change and wanted to know if things have changed that much since i have been gone from pow-wow's.
i am from the apache tribe, my hobbies include making moc's,
keychains and indian doll clothes for my neice.
i guess i should't have used desert indian, i figured red dirt is
worse than sand. since you can't get red dirt stains off moc's.
i have alot of other questions but may ask later after everyone calms down.
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Old 09-13-2005, 06:13 PM   #36
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oh i forgot to tell you this part.....
my name originated from the ramones (joey) being the best in case you are wondering. yes i am 37 (ish). and i do love punk rock !!!!!! even if you don't !!
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Old 09-13-2005, 09:18 PM   #37
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Finally she comes out of her shell, now we can all calm down and kind of laugh about this thread, because it has no basis....really. I have noticed alot of Navajos dancing Southern, but then again, most of them that I know are half (another tribe). Blame 49ers for it.........eyyyy. It's them baby boomers! This generation is like a rubix cube, all mixed up like gravy. We got some Ponca in our family. I too, have Ute in my blood (but I prefer to be called Dine') cuz we are very strong in our language and our way of life, and I was raised Dine. I married into a powwow family and I got to admit, we are all not full-blooded Dine'. We got some Northern and Southern in our kid's bloods. We love to powwow, we love to meet people, learn new cultures and travel. But foremost, we teach our kids to be respectful and always pay tribute to the elders and veterans. We teach our children to pay attention and pay respect. I have much respect for the people of Oklahoma, so I hope I don't offend anyone. Good response and let's not put other tribes down. We are all one people. No one tribe is better than the other.
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Old 09-13-2005, 09:24 PM   #38
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Just wanted to add to this thread...while serving, there was a powwow held in Iraq. There was some Southern dancers from Oklahoma, whom were women dancing........soooo, I wouldn't be surprised if you see an Arab women dressing up and picked up some ideas from them ladies. There is also people in Germany who dance Southern. Chinese people are making money off of natives by making fake dresses and dolls, seen it too many times. So, it's not just Navajos who dance Southern.

Just my 2cents, don't bite my head off.
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Old 09-14-2005, 01:09 PM   #39
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Old 09-14-2005, 01:11 PM   #40
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A "Hostile" from the plains tribes...

:)

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