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Old 10-02-2012, 08:06 PM   #61
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While we're here, I might as well confess that I regularly cover my exposed arms, face, and neck in "facepaint" (water + Palo Duro Canyon dirt) when I go mountain biking in the summer. Somewhere I read that among its many expressive purposes Native Americans used paint as a shield against bugs and the sun. Mosquitoes accept any blood, any time. It works better than any awful insect repellent or smelly, greasy sun screen.

Last edited by Locus Solus; 10-02-2012 at 08:07 PM.. Reason: bad grammar
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:48 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Locus Solus View Post
I'd kind of like to know what it is regarding the blood quantum minimum that would lead a tribal government to their criteria. Is it:
-Sheer Numbers
-Tribal history, movement, and locale (How different is a California Chahta today from an Okla Chahta at the turn of the century from a Mississippi Chahta who Decided to stay back?)
-Likelihood of earlier or more established "mixed blood"
-Having more or less to offer any given # of members
-Sense of honor and pride
-degree of assimilation in any certain direction or the relation the tribes had with the other various people flooding across the continents? Does it vary from tribe to tribe with guidelines set forth by a given Tribal Council in line with consensus of the Tribal Populace?
Or, in one sentence-Why would Choctaw or Cherokee enrollment be so much of a different thing from from Tonkawa, or Tlingit, or Couer D'Alene?
One of the things I find so fascinating about all this is that yes, I may already be 5 generations separated from the first verifiable proof of my Native Genes, but 5 generations is a drop in the bucket from the first people to cross the land bridge over into Alaska.
In a word it depends...
The Federal Government has given up trying to determine who is Native they leave that up to each tribe
If you look at my List that I gathered that information comes from each tribe's enrollment office!
What I left off is the 500 or so tribes that use various other criteria and higher blood quantums even a few that are as high as a 1/2!!

At one time in the Cherokee Nation, you could only be counted as a Citizen if your Mother was a Citizen. But in 1825 that was changed in Tribal Council due to the fact that a Chief at the time had married a White Woman and his Children were not going to be counted as Citizens! So laws were changed which also ended our clan system for we get our clan thru our mother...

Its simple
Does your Tribe recognize you as a member?
If yes then you are a Citizen of that Tribe by the criteria they have elected to use period.

Tribes that use a minimum Blood Quantum are starting to realize that is a path that will end the tribe!
A prime example of that is the fact that Intermarriage is common practice especially in Oklahoma! And no I am not talking about marrying whites but intermarriage amongst tribes.
I know of lots of Full Bloods that are at least 5 different tribes but they can only enroll with one! SOOO they pick one and that is what they are 1/4 Kiowa or 1/8 Sac and Fox ect ect
By the rolls they are only just enough to meet the barest minimum
But to outward appearance they are Full Bloods
Are they any less Ndn???
Well now if you judge a book by its cover most would say no!
BUT BY BLOOD they are NO Different than any other 1/4 BLOOD!! And have the exact same rights as any other member of that tribe. A person certainly does not recieve any added benefits of being full Native. Unless they are Full Bllod of that tribe then in my Tribe's case you are afforded a Burial free of charge when you pass on, that is about the only added benefit you would get!
But I digress:
So why have a minimum you ask? Well if you look at the list you will realize that number has grown each year that goes by
Its only the uneducated that continue to think that its only Cherokee that are 1/2000th LoL
As if that mattered for they have just as much rights and VOTE than say a 4/4ths Cherokee
And yes believe it or not they are out there thousands and thousands of fullbloods, for we were always a Large tribe our original Numbers at 1st Contact have been estimated in the 1/2 million range and that was 473 years ago!!!

So Why have a Minimum?

That will be a Question that will have to be answered in the next few years
Or you could do like some tribes have already done...
Just make everyone that is enrolled at that time:
FULLBLOOD

It has already been done
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:15 PM   #63
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Kindness and Understanding First.

It makes me sad to see people on here jumping at one another. I was born and raised not being told of my heritage because at that time, being NDN was a 'bad' thing where I lived. (I easily pass for Irish, and that's what people pretty much know me as, even though I feel no connection to that culture.)

I have done some scant research on my ancestors, and have not come up with anything definitive as of yet.

And the kicker is, from everything I've been told and what I've found, I'm Cherokee and Choctaw. Yeah, the very two that some people on here say that 'everyone' says they are. Sorry, I have no control on where my people are from or the blood that flows through their veins. They started out in NC, then on to Mississippi and Alabama. None that I'm directly descended from were on the Trail of Tears.

It's only natural, no matter who you are, to want to know where you come from. It's especially important for me, because I grew up living all over creation, never stayed in one place long enough to be able to say I have a hometown.

To be yelled at (as much as one can be, online) and have derogatory things said to one is very hurtful. Some of us truly just want to know who we are, where we come from. I want to embrace my heritage and learn as much as possible about it. But the defeatist attitude I've seen (whom I shall not name) has a harmful affect on some. Me being among that 'some'. I don't look NDN. Because of that I have been called a Wannabe. That's so hurtful.

I don't Wannabe anything but who I am. And if my roots are Native, I'd be happy to own that and would want to learn as much as possible about it. It's not about being in some club. It's about connecting with like-minded people who love and care about the same things you do, and who share a common ancestry.

The past matters to me. I want to know as much as I can about the people (no matter what their heritage is) I come from as humanly possible. If I don't know where I come from, how will my child know? And their child as well?

Not everyone is on here trying to be something they're not.

I went to school with a Vietnamese girl who really knew very little about the American culture. She didn't want to be anything other than who she was, but she wanted to understand the people and the world around her. That doesn't make her a Wannabe.

So please, keep these things in thought before you speak so quickly and harshly. You may actually be talking to someone who does have Native blood running through their veins. Just because they don't flash a card doesn't change who they are.

I hope I've not offended anyone. I just would like to see more kindness and understanding. I have been on the receiving end of some very hurtful remarks (not on here), and I don't want to go down that road again, or see someone else have to endure it as well.

I apologize that my first post on here is what it is.
I just felt the need to 'de-lurk' and say my peace.
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:21 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Roses View Post
It makes me sad to see people on here jumping at one another. I was born and raised not being told of my heritage because at that time, being NDN was a 'bad' thing where I lived. (I easily pass for Irish, and that's what people pretty much know me as, even though I feel no connection to that culture.)

I have done some scant research on my ancestors, and have not come up with anything definitive as of yet.

And the kicker is, from everything I've been told and what I've found, I'm Cherokee and Choctaw. Yeah, the very two that some people on here say that 'everyone' says they are. Sorry, I have no control on where my people are from or the blood that flows through their veins. They started out in NC, then on to Mississippi and Alabama. None that I'm directly descended from were on the Trail of Tears.

It's only natural, no matter who you are, to want to know where you come from. It's especially important for me, because I grew up living all over creation, never stayed in one place long enough to be able to say I have a hometown.

To be yelled at (as much as one can be, online) and have derogatory things said to one is very hurtful. Some of us truly just want to know who we are, where we come from. I want to embrace my heritage and learn as much as possible about it. But the defeatist attitude I've seen (whom I shall not name) has a harmful affect on some. Me being among that 'some'. I don't look NDN. Because of that I have been called a Wannabe. That's so hurtful.

I don't Wannabe anything but who I am. And if my roots are Native, I'd be happy to own that and would want to learn as much as possible about it. It's not about being in some club. It's about connecting with like-minded people who love and care about the same things you do, and who share a common ancestry.

The past matters to me. I want to know as much as I can about the people (no matter what their heritage is) I come from as humanly possible. If I don't know where I come from, how will my child know? And their child as well?

Not everyone is on here trying to be something they're not.

I went to school with a Vietnamese girl who really knew very little about the American culture. She didn't want to be anything other than who she was, but she wanted to understand the people and the world around her. That doesn't make her a Wannabe.

So please, keep these things in thought before you speak so quickly and harshly. You may actually be talking to someone who does have Native blood running through their veins. Just because they don't flash a card doesn't change who they are.

I hope I've not offended anyone. I just would like to see more kindness and understanding. I have been on the receiving end of some very hurtful remarks (not on here), and I don't want to go down that road again, or see someone else have to endure it as well.

I apologize that my first post on here is what it is.
I just felt the need to 'de-lurk' and say my peace.
Exploring your Heritage is not being a Wannabe...

I explore my English side and trace those roots back to England
I am proud of those Farmers that made a go of it in the New World and worked hard raising crops.

No one on this forum has a problem with anyone that comes asking questions and seeking answers to those questions
In a good way

No one has problems with those

But before you share a family story perhaps you should look into it a bit more...
Ask yourself the following questions:

1) Why did they leave the main body of the tribe?
2) Who was chasing them?
3) Why did they not meet back up with their uncles, aunts, cousins, brothers, sisters and others in the family that did not leave the main body of the tribe??
4) Why did they not want the payments owed to them in the 1850's,1860's and 1890's?
5) Why did they not want to work land that they did not have to pay for, for it was held in common by all Cherokee??
6) Why did they not want to be exempt from Federal Laws and State Laws and only subject to Tribal Laws and Courts??
7) Why if they married a white person did they not want to move onto Tribal land for their Spouse would have full Citizen rights and able to vote? (up until 1872)

I have traced my ancestors back before 1835 on numerous rolls following wifes families husbands families siblings grandparents great grandparents ect ect. Cherokees are amongst the most documented tribe in the World we can trace ancestry back quickly and easily. We have Missionary records that listed Children when they went to school where they went to school, we have Indian Agent records we know how many pigs each person owned before they went on the Trail of Tears and how many they had left when they arrived in Cherokee Nation Indian Territory.
We started our own Newspaper in 1828 and it just celebrated its 185th year this year Tsalagi Tsulehisanvhi!
We were never put on a Reservation that was our own Sovereign Land ran by our own tribe and courts. We did not allow Railroads through any parts of our nation until the later part of the 1890's. Does this sound like a beaten forgotton locked away on some rez somewhere where we had to sneak away to steal food????

The Dawes Rolls are based on our own Tribal Census of 1896 and 1880 as a matter of Fact our own Tribal Attorny protested hundreds of potential enrollees that the Dawes Commision was attempting to enroll, but the tribe could find no evidence that they ever were enrolled and those were excluded. But we have records of even those people and we can go back and trace to confirm that yes indeed they were not connected with our tribe in the past so thus were not Cherokee.

Heritage is what I have when it comes to calling myself English
But England does not grant me rights as a Citizen

Citizenship is granted to me by my Tribe for they recognize that I decend from generations of tribal members.


Thats the difference
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:00 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Exploring your Heritage is not being a Wannabe...

I explore my English side and trace those roots back to England
I am proud of those Farmers that made a go of it in the New World and worked hard raising crops.

No one on this forum has a problem with anyone that comes asking questions and seeking answers to those questions
In a good way

No one has problems with those

But before you share a family story perhaps you should look into it a bit more...
Ask yourself the following questions:

1) Why did they leave the main body of the tribe?
2) Who was chasing them?
3) Why did they not meet back up with their uncles, aunts, cousins, brothers, sisters and others in the family that did not leave the main body of the tribe??
4) Why did they not want the payments owed to them in the 1850's,1860's and 1890's?
5) Why did they not want to work land that they did not have to pay for, for it was held in common by all Cherokee??
6) Why did they not want to be exempt from Federal Laws and State Laws and only subject to Tribal Laws and Courts??
7) Why if they married a white person did they not want to move onto Tribal land for their Spouse would have full Citizen rights and able to vote? (up until 1872)

I have traced my ancestors back before 1835 on numerous rolls following wifes families husbands families siblings grandparents great grandparents ect ect. Cherokees are amongst the most documented tribe in the World we can trace ancestry back quickly and easily. We have Missionary records that listed Children when they went to school where they went to school, we have Indian Agent records we know how many pigs each person owned before they went on the Trail of Tears and how many they had left when they arrived in Cherokee Nation Indian Territory.
We started our own Newspaper in 1828 and it just celebrated its 185th year this year Tsalagi Tsulehisanvhi!
We were never put on a Reservation that was our own Sovereign Land ran by our own tribe and courts. We did not allow Railroads through any parts of our nation until the later part of the 1890's. Does this sound like a beaten forgotton locked away on some rez somewhere where we had to sneak away to steal food????

The Dawes Rolls are based on our own Tribal Census of 1896 and 1880 as a matter of Fact our own Tribal Attorny protested hundreds of potential enrollees that the Dawes Commision was attempting to enroll, but the tribe could find no evidence that they ever were enrolled and those were excluded. But we have records of even those people and we can go back and trace to confirm that yes indeed they were not connected with our tribe in the past so thus were not Cherokee.

Heritage is what I have when it comes to calling myself English
But England does not grant me rights as a Citizen

Citizenship is granted to me by my Tribe for they recognize that I decend from generations of tribal members.


Thats the difference
I never thought asking questions on here means someone is a Wannabe, but that in some cases, they are treated as such.

As for the list of questions you ask, I cannot answer them. I am the only one in my family that has even bothered working up a family tree. I'm the only one that wants to know where we come from. I'm the only one that's gotten up off my rear and done the homework. My people are not on the rolls. It is no secret that many NA's passed themselves off as whites. The census records in some areas are proof of that. 'Back in the day' of our ancestors, it is common knowledge that it was not 'popular' to be NA. Cherokee, being among the lightest skinned of NA people passed themselves off regularly as white when the census taker came around. Some (part of my family) escaped the Trail of Tears. Apparently they weren't buying what the government was selling. But that's the Cherokee side of my family. I have more to find out on the Choctaw side of things.

I know that a particular (deceased) singer and I share the same (3 or 4 generations back) full blood Cherokee g'father. But I haven't been able to find him on any rolls. That's a very touchy subject (for a good reason actually) and they changed their surname. Actually, there's both Cherokee and Choctaw on one side of my family, and Cherokee on the other.

No one that's left in my family will talk about the past. I'm left to try and figure it out on my own.

My trek into the past has met a lot of dead ends. I can't even get birth or marriage certificates for my own grandparents. The courthouse burned down years ago and all the records were lost.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:17 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Roses View Post
I never thought asking questions on here means someone is a Wannabe, but that in some cases, they are treated as such.

As for the list of questions you ask, I cannot answer them. I am the only one in my family that has even bothered working up a family tree. I'm the only one that wants to know where we come from. I'm the only one that's gotten up off my rear and done the homework. My people are not on the rolls. It is no secret that many NA's passed themselves off as whites. The census records in some areas are proof of that. 'Back in the day' of our ancestors, it is common knowledge that it was not 'popular' to be NA. Cherokee, being among the lightest skinned of NA people passed themselves off regularly as white when the census taker came around. Some (part of my family) escaped the Trail of Tears. Apparently they weren't buying what the government was selling. But that's the Cherokee side of my family. I have more to find out on the Choctaw side of things.

I know that a particular (deceased) singer and I share the same (3 or 4 generations back) full blood Cherokee g'father. But I haven't been able to find him on any rolls. That's a very touchy subject (for a good reason actually) and they changed their surname. Actually, there's both Cherokee and Choctaw on one side of my family, and Cherokee on the other.

No one that's left in my family will talk about the past. I'm left to try and figure it out on my own.

My trek into the past has met a lot of dead ends. I can't even get birth or marriage certificates for my own grandparents. The courthouse burned down years ago and all the records were lost.
I am not trying to be mean or mean spirited
But I am afraid that the stories that you are passing on are that "Stories"
I do agree Cherokees do come in all shades
But those that you are trying to say were "light skinned" meaning they were mixed blood would not have "escaped" from the Trail of Tears
For there is plenty of evidence that those that were intermarried moved there household goods and slaves very easily they just paid movers and they moved...

I am afraid that the ones that were actually on the Trail would have looked more like this:

They did not speak English only Cherokee


For those that were finally rounded up in the later part of 1838 were the final holdouts that believed Ross Swimmer that he would save the Nation

For the movenment west was done over a 30 year period it was the final 16100 Cherokees that walked the "trail where they cried"
We have a list of those its called the Emigration Roll
Less the 4000 that perished along the way we have a list that made it to Cherokee Nation in the West what became Indian Territory...
No large numbers of "escapees"
The evidence just does not support the notion that hundreds if not thousands escaped
To where would they go??

Even the ones in North Carolina could not own land for many years it was not until the 1860's untill that was fixed and these peopl became the Eastern Band

A tribe is made up of Families we tend to stick together
Look at that picture
It is made up of A man and woman
4 kids of the parents
Niece and her Husband
and a Granddaughter
We tend to cluster in groups because of COMMON LANGUAGE AND CULTURE
That is what makes a Tribe
wardancer and OLChemist like this.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:40 AM   #67
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:41 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Roses View Post
It makes me sad to see people on here jumping at one another. I was born and raised not being told of my heritage because at that time, being NDN was a 'bad' thing where I lived. (I easily pass for Irish, and that's what people pretty much know me as, even though I feel no connection to that culture.)

I have done some scant research on my ancestors, and have not come up with anything definitive as of yet.

And the kicker is, from everything I've been told and what I've found, I'm Cherokee and Choctaw. Yeah, the very two that some people on here say that 'everyone' says they are. Sorry, I have no control on where my people are from or the blood that flows through their veins. They started out in NC, then on to Mississippi and Alabama. None that I'm directly descended from were on the Trail of Tears.

It's only natural, no matter who you are, to want to know where you come from. It's especially important for me, because I grew up living all over creation, never stayed in one place long enough to be able to say I have a hometown.

To be yelled at (as much as one can be, online) and have derogatory things said to one is very hurtful. Some of us truly just want to know who we are, where we come from. I want to embrace my heritage and learn as much as possible about it. But the defeatist attitude I've seen (whom I shall not name) has a harmful affect on some. Me being among that 'some'. I don't look NDN. Because of that I have been called a Wannabe. That's so hurtful.

I don't Wannabe anything but who I am. And if my roots are Native, I'd be happy to own that and would want to learn as much as possible about it. It's not about being in some club. It's about connecting with like-minded people who love and care about the same things you do, and who share a common ancestry.

The past matters to me. I want to know as much as I can about the people (no matter what their heritage is) I come from as humanly possible. If I don't know where I come from, how will my child know? And their child as well?

Not everyone is on here trying to be something they're not.

I went to school with a Vietnamese girl who really knew very little about the American culture. She didn't want to be anything other than who she was, but she wanted to understand the people and the world around her. That doesn't make her a Wannabe.

So please, keep these things in thought before you speak so quickly and harshly. You may actually be talking to someone who does have Native blood running through their veins. Just because they don't flash a card doesn't change who they are.

I hope I've not offended anyone. I just would like to see more kindness and understanding. I have been on the receiving end of some very hurtful remarks (not on here), and I don't want to go down that road again, or see someone else have to endure it as well.

I apologize that my first post on here is what it is.
I just felt the need to 'de-lurk' and say my peace.
With kindness and understanding, let me ask you...How can you claim a race, a culture or a heritage...If you don't have any proof?

As far as the little Vietnamese girl...She KNEW who she was. She was only trying to understand another culture, not become it.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


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Old 03-11-2013, 02:52 PM   #69
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:59 AM   #70
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I never thought asking questions on here means someone is a Wannabe, but that in some cases, they are treated as such.

As for the list of questions you ask, I cannot answer them. I am the only one in my family that has even bothered working up a family tree. I'm the only one that wants to know where we come from. I'm the only one that's gotten up off my rear and done the homework. My people are not on the rolls. It is no secret that many NA's passed themselves off as whites. The census records in some areas are proof of that. 'Back in the day' of our ancestors, it is common knowledge that it was not 'popular' to be NA. Cherokee, being among the lightest skinned of NA people passed themselves off regularly as white when the census taker came around. Some (part of my family) escaped the Trail of Tears. Apparently they weren't buying what the government was selling. But that's the Cherokee side of my family. I have more to find out on the Choctaw side of things.

I know that a particular (deceased) singer and I share the same (3 or 4 generations back) full blood Cherokee g'father. But I haven't been able to find him on any rolls. That's a very touchy subject (for a good reason actually) and they changed their surname. Actually, there's both Cherokee and Choctaw on one side of my family, and Cherokee on the other.

No one that's left in my family will talk about the past. I'm left to try and figure it out on my own.

My trek into the past has met a lot of dead ends. I can't even get birth or marriage certificates for my own grandparents. The courthouse burned down years ago and all the records were lost.
@Red Roses, you seem to be someone I've come across before...Stephanie maybe?

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Old 03-13-2013, 05:49 PM   #71
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I think you'll find the opposite occurred... when segregation laws were in effect, the blood quantum of a black person was measured to AVOID segregation as opposed to inclusion seen in the BQ used by the feds to determine benefits. In states that introduced the Racial Integrity Act, there was the one drop rule to either classify a person as black or white. Again, this was used for avoidance and exclusion...

The irony is that while the one drop rule applied to only those of African descent, Natives require more than one drop (according to the Govt) to be considered Indian. One is about limiting the numbers for benefits and the other is about including for the purposes of racial discrimination/segregation laws.


Funny how that works...
I heard in Virginia, the governor decided that everyone was either white or black and if they had one drop of nonwhite blood of any kind, you were considered black, so some Indians or mixed Indian people who did not leave during the various removals would then have "black" status and be listed in census as black.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:59 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
I heard in Virginia, the governor decided that everyone was either white or black and if they had one drop of nonwhite blood of any kind, you were considered black, so some Indians or mixed Indian people who did not leave during the various removals would then have "black" status and be listed in census as black.
Shall we do a little Historical Perspective:

By 1829 the Cherokee Nation thru a series of treaties lived primarly in lower Tennessee a corner of North Carolina, Northern Georgia and a Northeast Corner of Alabama in a series of Towns along rivers in these areas.
The Northern area of Tennessee and into Kentucky and Virginia had been used primarily as hunting grounds in the past and as mentioned before we simply stopped venturing into those areas because of Treaties and Run-ins with the Whites in those States.

The Removal act of 1830 sought to Remove All Indian Tribes East of the Mississippi to the West into what was called unassigned lands. The Act did not only effect the Cherokee Nation but all 5 civilized tribes and any other tribes that were still living in communial villages as Andrew Jackson mentions here:A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774 - 1875

Indian Removal Act: Primary Documents of American History (Virtual Programs & Services, Library of Congress)

In reality this act was aimed squarely at the Cherokee Nation that most lived at this time in Northern Georgia and were not subject to State Laws.
But a number of Cherokees lived in North Carolina and were not subject to the removal act because of treaties of 1817 and due to the fact the State Government of North Carolina did not push the issue. This formed the Core of Cherokees that today we call the Eastern Band.
So those that remained in North Carolina, those that dodged the solders that were rounding up the final groups of Cherokees that had not left Georgia by 1838 and those that literally "walked" back from Indian Territory in the 1840's make up the Eastern Band of Cherokees that live in Swain,Jackson,Cherokee,Graham and Heywood Counties in far Western North Carolina.
In 1848 the US Government did a census of those that remained behind in North Carolina and in the 1860's finally settled the legal status of this group of Cherokees.

As I have written before, the evidence shows that Cherokees tend to "cluster" in groups and live near each other. The evidence also shows that when the two groups were split apart for a number of years groups of Cherokees still moved between the two Settlements in the East and West back and forth freely and often. As a matter of fact the Western Cherokees (Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma) made offers to there Eastern Brothers to come out the Cherokee Nation and live without fear in the 1870's!!

As it pertains to this thread the Cherokee Nation did not live in Virginia in the past merely used it for Hunting areas the Main Body of the tribe lived far to the South.
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:46 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Shall we do a little Historical Perspective:

By 1829 the Cherokee Nation thru a series of treaties lived primarly in lower Tennessee a corner of North Carolina, Northern Georgia and a Northeast Corner of Alabama in a series of Towns along rivers in these areas.
The Northern area of Tennessee and into Kentucky and Virginia had been used primarily as hunting grounds in the past and as mentioned before we simply stopped venturing into those areas because of Treaties and Run-ins with the Whites in those States.

The Removal act of 1830 sought to Remove All Indian Tribes East of the Mississippi to the West into what was called unassigned lands. The Act did not only effect the Cherokee Nation but all 5 civilized tribes and any other tribes that were still living in communial villages as Andrew Jackson mentions here:A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774 - 1875

Indian Removal Act: Primary Documents of American History (Virtual Programs & Services, Library of Congress)

In reality this act was aimed squarely at the Cherokee Nation that most lived at this time in Northern Georgia and were not subject to State Laws.
But a number of Cherokees lived in North Carolina and were not subject to the removal act because of treaties of 1817 and due to the fact the State Government of North Carolina did not push the issue. This formed the Core of Cherokees that today we call the Eastern Band.
So those that remained in North Carolina, those that dodged the solders that were rounding up the final groups of Cherokees that had not left Georgia by 1838 and those that literally "walked" back from Indian Territory in the 1840's make up the Eastern Band of Cherokees that live in Swain,Jackson,Cherokee,Graham and Heywood Counties in far Western North Carolina.
In 1848 the US Government did a census of those that remained behind in North Carolina and in the 1860's finally settled the legal status of this group of Cherokees.

As I have written before, the evidence shows that Cherokees tend to "cluster" in groups and live near each other. The evidence also shows that when the two groups were split apart for a number of years groups of Cherokees still moved between the two Settlements in the East and West back and forth freely and often. As a matter of fact the Western Cherokees (Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma) made offers to there Eastern Brothers to come out the Cherokee Nation and live without fear in the 1870's!!

As it pertains to this thread the Cherokee Nation did not live in Virginia in the past merely used it for Hunting areas the Main Body of the tribe lived far to the South.
Well I guess with all that being said, I guess my G-aunt told me a lie that my G G Grandmother was a full-blood Cherokee because the Northern part of Virginia along the West Virginia border was where they lived....so I guess I'm just a white girl, that is if I want to believe my G-aunt lied to me!
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:16 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stands Alone View Post
Well I guess with all that being said, I guess my G-aunt told me a lie that my G G Grandmother was a full-blood Cherokee because the Northern part of Virginia along the West Virginia border was where they lived....so I guess I'm just a white girl, that is if I want to believe my G-aunt lied to me!
hi. it would be helpful if you added the dates when your family was in that part of the country maybe you and a few of the other people on here could begain to see eye to eye about the diffrences of point of view ,lots of difftent understanding like for instance i read the stories about the metis that were involed in the huston bay companes befor lewis and clark this is somthing at does not get a lot of press ..that being said people i got to go to work have a good day laters
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:42 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by 2lineCarrandMorgan View Post
hi. it would be helpful if you added the dates when your family was in that part of the country maybe you and a few of the other people on here could begain to see eye to eye about the diffrences of point of view ,lots of difftent understanding like for instance i read the stories about the metis that were involed in the huston bay companes befor lewis and clark this is somthing at does not get a lot of press ..that being said people i got to go to work have a good day laters
Hi back to ya! I have put dates up here & names. I have gotten responses on where & how to search....I was hoping to find a connection. Just as my user name is Stands Alone this is how I feel most of the time. None of my cousins or siblings feel as I do, I have searched for years.
I copied this from a previous thread I had on here:
Williams family....I'm stuck!
Does anyone have Williams in their family line?
My GGgrandmother was Mary C. Williams born 22 Nov 1859-married William D. Herbaugh/Hurbaugh on 31 Jan 1884. The marriage record is in Shenandoah County, Virginia. Her father is listed as Jackson Williams and mother Almira Bauserman. I found on the 1860 census as being listed as Mulatto, father Jas Williams in Augusta, Virginia....not sure if this is the same but she was 1 year old then. On the 1910 census my Ggrandmother, Fannie Edna Herbaugh, is listed as 15 years old and Mary, her mother, as divorced.

I was told by my great aunt which is Fannie's daughter that my GGgrandmother was full-blood Cherokee. She told me I would never find anything on paper which is true I haven't found anything as of yet and have been searching for years.

As far as I know they were all from Cedar Creek, Virginia.

Thanks for any help anyone has to offer!
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:29 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stands Alone View Post
Well I guess with all that being said, I guess my G-aunt told me a lie that my G G Grandmother was a full-blood Cherokee because the Northern part of Virginia along the West Virginia border was where they lived....so I guess I'm just a white girl, that is if I want to believe my G-aunt lied to me!
Not sure where you read that in my post
I called no one a liar!

Citizenship and Heritage are two different things

A person that left the body of the tribe is no longer a citizen
But they are still Indian

There lies the rub!
If you want to go and PROVE that person is Native by today's standards you will not be able to.

Just by the fact that person appears on a Census in 1860 is proof enough they are no longer considered a citizen of that nation AND more importantly they are a Citizen of the UNITED STATES.

Please understand that at this time the Cherokee Nation was considered a Sovereign Nation! With its own courts and Census

As for proving heritage, Fullbloods in the 1860's and earlier did not use English names for the most part. At this time only Mixed Bloods did and they usually took their White Father's Name.
Also understand this, Cherokees did not take the name of their Fathers at this time. It was not until later that a surname was used, in this time period we took our Mother's Clan name!
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:06 PM   #77
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muskrat_skull - you are correct basically, Walter Plecker wasn't the governor but he was some sort of govt official and he did make it that way. When my mother moved to Virginia from NC some of my family (they are Chickahominy) had children that were listed as Indian, some white, some black (all in the same family). Plecker was trying to rid the state of any Native people.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:22 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stands Alone View Post
Hi back to ya! I have put dates up here & names. I have gotten responses on where & how to search....I was hoping to find a connection. Just as my user name is Stands Alone this is how I feel most of the time. None of my cousins or siblings feel as I do, I have searched for years.
I copied this from a previous thread I had on here:
Williams family....I'm stuck!
Does anyone have Williams in their family line?
My GGgrandmother was Mary C. Williams born 22 Nov 1859-married William D. Herbaugh/Hurbaugh on 31 Jan 1884. The marriage record is in Shenandoah County, Virginia. Her father is listed as Jackson Williams and mother Almira Bauserman. I found on the 1860 census as being listed as Mulatto, father Jas Williams in Augusta, Virginia....not sure if this is the same but she was 1 year old then. On the 1910 census my Ggrandmother, Fannie Edna Herbaugh, is listed as 15 years old and Mary, her mother, as divorced.

I was told by my great aunt which is Fannie's daughter that my GGgrandmother was full-blood Cherokee. She told me I would never find anything on paper which is true I haven't found anything as of yet and have been searching for years.

As far as I know they were all from Cedar Creek, Virginia.

Thanks for any help anyone has to offer!
You can't just pick a mulatto person with Jas, which is generally short for James, and go off of that. You must only deal with a Jackson, living with an Almira
You might find something if you searched the library of virginia chauncery cases.



Almira H Williams
1900 Census
ED 82 Stonewall District (north part), Shenandoah, Virginia, United States

Birth Date: May 1844
Birthplace: Virginia
Relationship to Head of Household: Mother
Father's Birthplace: Virginia
Mother's Birthplace: Virginia
Race: White
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Widowed
Years Married:
Marriage Year (Estimated):
Mother of how many children: 1
Number of Living Children: 1
Household:
Head W M Williams M 39 Virginia
Wife Annie Williams F 30 Virginia
Son Roy C Williams M 13 Virginia
Son Harry P Williams M 8 Virginia
Son Guy T Williams M 2 Virginia
Mother Almira H Williams F 56 Virginia
"United States Census, 1900," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MMJ4-WJM : accessed 14 Mar 2013), Almira H Williams in entry for W M Williams, 1900.

This is the only Almira H Williams I could find in Shenandoah. She is widowed, it says she only had one child, I'm assuming the WM mentioned perhaps there was an issue there or this is not right. There are many Jackson or Andrew Jackson Williams, which seems a strange name to me for someone probably born around Indian removal time that would be Cherokee, but what do I know. Perhaps he passed, perhaps she remarried. You need your relatives help with this. Also try the Williams forums on the genealogy sites, someone may have already done this for you.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:55 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stands Alone View Post
Hi back to ya! I have put dates up here & names. I have gotten responses on where & how to search....I was hoping to find a connection. Just as my user name is Stands Alone this is how I feel most of the time. None of my cousins or siblings feel as I do, I have searched for years.
I copied this from a previous thread I had on here:
Williams family....I'm stuck!
Does anyone have Williams in their family line?
My GGgrandmother was Mary C. Williams born 22 Nov 1859-married William D. Herbaugh/Hurbaugh on 31 Jan 1884. The marriage record is in Shenandoah County, Virginia. Her father is listed as Jackson Williams and mother Almira Bauserman. I found on the 1860 census as being listed as Mulatto, father Jas Williams in Augusta, Virginia....not sure if this is the same but she was 1 year old then. On the 1910 census my Ggrandmother, Fannie Edna Herbaugh, is listed as 15 years old and Mary, her mother, as divorced.

I was told by my great aunt which is Fannie's daughter that my GGgrandmother was full-blood Cherokee. She told me I would never find anything on paper which is true I haven't found anything as of yet and have been searching for years.

As far as I know they were all from Cedar Creek, Virginia.

Thanks for any help anyone has to offer!
So if Mary Williams was Full Blood her parents would also be
and her Grandparents on both sides of her family mother and father
would be fullblood
And somewhere in that group you would expect to find somebody that did not live in Virginia

Despite what the Virginia Authorities did

I have cut from the Chapman Roll of 1848 what a page out of the Roll book would have look like
I trimmed the page so I could fit it into this post


This is what a page would look like and the families notice that Full bloods did not use Surnames and would merely have the name they would be known by. The full name in Cherokee would be what people call you and then your clan and even town you were from such as Paint town in this case.



This is from the same roll just a few pages later, John Davis is a white man who took a Cherokee Wife and they have two Children. This is very typical for during this time up until 1870 when the marriage laws were changed a white man could marry a Cherokee Woman and live among the Cherokee people. he would be given full rights as a Citizen able to vote in Government and all matters of the nation.

I have read hundreds of these documents and have researched for others whit a similiar story and in all cases you must trace to a person this lived in the genral area where the main body of the tribe lived. In your case you have the name: Mary C Williams born 22 Nov 1859 to Jackson Williams and Almira Bauserman she was born in Virginia. So where were the parents born you must go back another generation to their parents and if you still find them in Virginia then you must go back another genration to their parents and so on and so on

My Mother's side is white but they too had a story of a Cherokee Woman a fullblood it was a story that was told around the kitchen table to my father who was fullblood many times. It was just that a family story, years later I decided to look for that Cherokee woman and after many thousands of pages I found her! She was born in Hangingdog North Carolina in 1789 and passed away in Ft Gibson Indian Territory 1851. She married a white man and they left the Cherokee Nation long before removal and that busness and for a time lived in Florida until her husband passed away and she went to live with Relatives in the "west" near Ft Gibson of the Cherokee Nation and she lived there until she passed just before the Drennon Roll was done and so she was never listed in the west and in the East we only have misssionary records of her parents and her Cherokee name.
My point in all of this is this fact
In order for a person to find a connection, you must find a point in the past when they lived near the main body of the tribe...
Otherwise it will be just that, a family story...
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:44 PM   #80
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muskrat_skull - you are correct basically, Walter Plecker wasn't the governor but he was some sort of govt official and he did make it that way. When my mother moved to Virginia from NC some of my family (they are Chickahominy) had children that were listed as Indian, some white, some black (all in the same family). Plecker was trying to rid the state of any Native people.
Yeah, my relative there moved to Ohio when the one-drop laws started. His mother stayed but changed counties to Patrick Co. which was really mixed. I don't know if that was a "Free State" then.

I know some of these places had "Independent cities" and "Free States" like the "Free State of Patrick" that even printed their own money. I don't know how this affected things.
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