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Old 03-15-2013, 08:03 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Not sure where you read that in my post
I called no one a liar!

Citizenship and Heritage are two different things

A person that left the body of the tribe is no longer a citizen
But they are still Indian

There lies the rub!
If you want to go and PROVE that person is Native by today's standards you will not be able to.

Just by the fact that person appears on a Census in 1860 is proof enough they are no longer considered a citizen of that nation AND more importantly they are a Citizen of the UNITED STATES.

Please understand that at this time the Cherokee Nation was considered a Sovereign Nation! With its own courts and Census

As for proving heritage, Fullbloods in the 1860's and earlier did not use English names for the most part. At this time only Mixed Bloods did and they usually took their White Father's Name.
Also understand this, Cherokees did not take the name of their Fathers at this time. It was not until later that a surname was used, in this time period we took our Mother's Clan name!
I understand what you are saying! As for you calling someone a liar I also did not see that in your post...it was more or less my silly thought! It was early in the morning
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:11 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
You can't just pick a mulatto person with Jas, which is generally short for James, and go off of that. You must only deal with a Jackson, living with an Almira
You might find something if you searched the library of virginia chauncery cases.



Almira H Williams
1900 Census
ED 82 Stonewall District (north part), Shenandoah, Virginia, United States

Birth Date: May 1844
Birthplace: Virginia
Relationship to Head of Household: Mother
Father's Birthplace: Virginia
Mother's Birthplace: Virginia
Race: White
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Widowed
Years Married:
Marriage Year (Estimated):
Mother of how many children: 1
Number of Living Children: 1
Household:
Head W M Williams M 39 Virginia
Wife Annie Williams F 30 Virginia
Son Roy C Williams M 13 Virginia
Son Harry P Williams M 8 Virginia
Son Guy T Williams M 2 Virginia
Mother Almira H Williams F 56 Virginia
"United States Census, 1900," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MMJ4-WJM : accessed 14 Mar 2013), Almira H Williams in entry for W M Williams, 1900.

This is the only Almira H Williams I could find in Shenandoah. She is widowed, it says she only had one child, I'm assuming the WM mentioned perhaps there was an issue there or this is not right. There are many Jackson or Andrew Jackson Williams, which seems a strange name to me for someone probably born around Indian removal time that would be Cherokee, but what do I know. Perhaps he passed, perhaps she remarried. You need your relatives help with this. Also try the Williams forums on the genealogy sites, someone may have already done this for you.
Thanks, but unfortunately there is no living relatives that I am aware of that has any info. One of my aunts, who turns 90 on Sunday, refuses to believe there is any ndn blood. I will check into Williams forums.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:35 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
So if Mary Williams was Full Blood her parents would also be
and her Grandparents on both sides of her family mother and father
would be fullblood
And somewhere in that group you would expect to find somebody that did not live in Virginia

Despite what the Virginia Authorities did

I have cut from the Chapman Roll of 1848 what a page out of the Roll book would have look like
I trimmed the page so I could fit it into this post


This is what a page would look like and the families notice that Full bloods did not use Surnames and would merely have the name they would be known by. The full name in Cherokee would be what people call you and then your clan and even town you were from such as Paint town in this case.



This is from the same roll just a few pages later, John Davis is a white man who took a Cherokee Wife and they have two Children. This is very typical for during this time up until 1870 when the marriage laws were changed a white man could marry a Cherokee Woman and live among the Cherokee people. he would be given full rights as a Citizen able to vote in Government and all matters of the nation.

I have read hundreds of these documents and have researched for others whit a similiar story and in all cases you must trace to a person this lived in the genral area where the main body of the tribe lived. In your case you have the name: Mary C Williams born 22 Nov 1859 to Jackson Williams and Almira Bauserman she was born in Virginia. So where were the parents born you must go back another generation to their parents and if you still find them in Virginia then you must go back another genration to their parents and so on and so on

My Mother's side is white but they too had a story of a Cherokee Woman a fullblood it was a story that was told around the kitchen table to my father who was fullblood many times. It was just that a family story, years later I decided to look for that Cherokee woman and after many thousands of pages I found her! She was born in Hangingdog North Carolina in 1789 and passed away in Ft Gibson Indian Territory 1851. She married a white man and they left the Cherokee Nation long before removal and that busness and for a time lived in Florida until her husband passed away and she went to live with Relatives in the "west" near Ft Gibson of the Cherokee Nation and she lived there until she passed just before the Drennon Roll was done and so she was never listed in the west and in the East we only have misssionary records of her parents and her Cherokee name.
My point in all of this is this fact
In order for a person to find a connection, you must find a point in the past when they lived near the main body of the tribe...
Otherwise it will be just that, a family story...
Ok, now I'm beginning to think there were more Greats in front of my grandmother than my aunt realized. Actually she told me her name was Mary Tharp and that I would never find anything on paper. So...I have been researching for many years, I get tired of doing it often....I tell myself "just be", I don't know if anyone will understand where I'm coming from or not. I was raised "white", when I was ten two NA guys came to my Mom's house, one gave me a bracelet & copper ring and said he would be back. I have found they were Cheyenne. Later in the 10th grade I was called by two girls a high cheek-boned Indian bxxch! These things I didn't understand. When I was 35 my second husband (who is NA)and I went to visit my G-aunt and that is when she told me about the full blood grandmother. I have felt I was always just dropped into my family...like I was an alien! It would be nice to have relatives that believe the same, to have that connection.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:47 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Stands Alone View Post
Ok, now I'm beginning to think there were more Greats in front of my grandmother than my aunt realized. Actually she told me her name was Mary Tharp and that I would never find anything on paper. So...I have been researching for many years, I get tired of doing it often....I tell myself "just be", I don't know if anyone will understand where I'm coming from or not. I was raised "white", when I was ten two NA guys came to my Mom's house, one gave me a bracelet & copper ring and said he would be back. I have found they were Cheyenne. Later in the 10th grade I was called by two girls a high cheek-boned Indian bxxch! These things I didn't understand. When I was 35 my second husband (who is NA)and I went to visit my G-aunt and that is when she told me about the full blood grandmother. I have felt I was always just dropped into my family...like I was an alien! It would be nice to have relatives that believe the same, to have that connection.
None of the above has anything to do with a real search for your real roots. You were not raised culturally as Native American, you were raised white. But you are choosing to identify with a culture you know nothing about and have no tangible link to.

The info about your family keeps changing, even the surnames. It doesn't seem like you are serious about finding out the truth. This is upsetting because there is enough bogus stuff on the internet already. If you wish to learn about your family, you must go from your beginning documents, your birth certificate, and follow the paper trail step by step, paying for documents if you must and going to courthouses and such or requesting records by mail.

Finding out more about your real white family might help you feel less "alien". You know that feeling comes from the typical white lack of culture, but that doesn't make it right to grab someone else's culture. You need to figure out your own and build on that. Perhaps getting involved in your family's faith or finding a faith that you are comfortable with would help fill the familial void you feel meantime.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:25 PM   #85
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The info about your family keeps changing, even the surnames. It doesn't seem like you are serious about finding out the truth. This is upsetting because there is enough bogus stuff on the internet already. If you wish to learn about your family, you must go from your beginning documents, your birth certificate, and follow the paper trail step by step, paying for documents if you must and going to courthouses and such or requesting records by mail.

I was just saying this was the name my great aunt told me when she was first telling me about the blood line. And I have started with myself and have gone back many years. I am very serious about finding out the truth, doing the family research gets very confusing for me sometimes. I guess I just don't have your skills or knowledge of how to go about it.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:30 PM   #86
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Finding out more about your real white family might help you feel less "alien". You know that feeling comes from the typical white lack of culture, but that doesn't make it right to grab someone else's culture. You need to figure out your own and build on that. Perhaps getting involved in your family's faith or finding a faith that you are comfortable with would help fill the familial void you feel meantime.

I have found a lot of my real white family. I don't feel like I am grabbing another culture...have I said I was Cherokee? My family's faith is not mine.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:32 PM   #87
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None of the above has anything to do with a real search for your real roots. You were not raised culturally as Native American, you were raised white. But you are choosing to identify with a culture you know nothing about and have no tangible link to.

Wouldn't you think this is why I want to know the truth? Again as far as I know I have never said I was Cherokee?
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:01 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stands Alone View Post
The info about your family keeps changing, even the surnames. It doesn't seem like you are serious about finding out the truth. This is upsetting because there is enough bogus stuff on the internet already. If you wish to learn about your family, you must go from your beginning documents, your birth certificate, and follow the paper trail step by step, paying for documents if you must and going to courthouses and such or requesting records by mail.

I was just saying this was the name my great aunt told me when she was first telling me about the blood line. And I have started with myself and have gone back many years. I am very serious about finding out the truth, doing the family research gets very confusing for me sometimes. I guess I just don't have your skills or knowledge of how to go about it.
I misunderstood, I thought you were saying that Mary C. Herbaugh was Mary Tharp and so I was looking for the wrong thing. The family forums can help alot. Lots of times if your tree is old you find someone has already done it. And lots of corrections get made there too. And you can find family. All you can do is just keep at it. Williams is going to be hard. Also, try writing down the confusing parts on paper. That can help.

If you put your tree, whatever you have, on Make Your Family Tree and Discover Your Family History Online which is free, then you get little green leaves that give you hints. I got emailed by relatives within days. If you can't afford ancestry to follow up on the hints, many libraries may have it for free.

My Heritage Family Tree is also free and it also gives you links to other peoples trees and compares and contrasts your tree to theirs. Unlike ancestry, you can see many details about the persons from other peoples trees, and if you subscribe you can merge info automatically instead of typing it in. The key is to make sure their info is backed up by documents and check it for yourself.

You can import and export your family tree from both programs. So if you start in one, you can import to the other. My trees are huge and I ran out of space on My Heritage so I moved to Mundia.

Also, be sure to research not just your direct line, but the lines of your aunts and uncles because this is usually how you end up connecting with other people that know more and you may like and who may have photos and things.

So just keep at it. and take breaks when you need to. And realize that you may never find out and learn to live with that as well. Sometimes, there just aren't records.
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Old 08-10-2013, 09:36 PM   #89
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Hello,
I've been reading this thread through, and wanted to share my journey to learn about my Cherokee heritage.

Some of my grandfather's (father's father) family would mention sometimes that they were Cherokee, but others in the family would say no, they just want to be, that they were claiming someone married an "Indian Princess" but aren't really native. It wasn't until shortly before my grandmother died that she sat me down and told me Yes, your grandfather's family were Cherokee and came to California from Oklahoma because Oklahoma had become a state, so they sold their land and moved. She said that there was information through genealogy sites and if I really wanted to learn more I'd need to do the research.

This was hard for me because of all the denials, and I don't look native! (blue eyes, blonde hair--although it's gray now:) And I read how many native people look on whites claiming to be Indians as "wannabes" and "twinkies". But I figured, I know about my Scottish and Irish and Welsh ancestors, they are part of my heritage, of who I am today; and I thought that knowing about my Native heritage was just as important. So I found the Dawes Rolls, and looked up the family name, and there were my great-great-grandparents. G-g-grandmother was 1/4th Cherokee (G-g-grandfather was white), and I found their children, my great-grandfather listed as 1/8th. That was very exciting for me to find them, but that's all it was to me for a while, just something cool. I didn't have the cultural connections and wasn't sure I should claim I was Native if I've never learned about the culture.

Then a couple of things happened. I live on the Pacific Northwest Coast and have many Native friends. Several of them told me, after I found out about my Cherokee ancestors, "why haven't you enrolled with the Cherokee Nation? Are you ashamed?" That floored me, as I had thought that being hesitant was just because I didn't feel "Indian", not because of shame. It stung, and made me think about it more.

The second thing that happened is that I was trying to find out when my ancestors arrived in Oklahoma, and found that my 4xgreat grandparents (4xgreat-grandfather was white, 4xgreat-grandmother was full blood Cherokee) had left Tennessee in 1834 with a very large group of Cherokee and other Tribes. But my 4xgreat-grandparents never arrived in Oklahoma, just their children. I tried to find out more, and learn about Cadron Creek, where the group landed because they were taking the Arkansas River and it was too low for the boats. Many people got measles and cholera and died--my 4xgreat-grandparents died there too. That fact hit me very hard, almost like a blow in the pit of my stomach, and I realized these weren't just names on a list, they were my family!

Since then, I am aware as others have said, that I have not been raised learning and knowing about the Cherokee culture, but have been taking the time to educate myself as much as I can. There may be those who still say I'll never be truly Native, that 1/64th isn't really enough to be Native, but I'm doing this for myself, and especially for my children, who deserve to know as much as possible about all their heritage.

Sorry this is so long, but I did want to share my perspective on this. Thank you for listening. Hawkat
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Old 08-11-2013, 01:21 AM   #90
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Hello,
I've been reading this thread through, and wanted to share my journey to learn about my Cherokee heritage.

Some of my grandfather's (father's father) family would mention sometimes that they were Cherokee, but others in the family would say no, they just want to be, that they were claiming someone married an "Indian Princess" but aren't really native. It wasn't until shortly before my grandmother died that she sat me down and told me Yes, your grandfather's family were Cherokee and came to California from Oklahoma because Oklahoma had become a state, so they sold their land and moved. She said that there was information through genealogy sites and if I really wanted to learn more I'd need to do the research.

This was hard for me because of all the denials, and I don't look native! (blue eyes, blonde hair--although it's gray now:) And I read how many native people look on whites claiming to be Indians as "wannabes" and "twinkies". But I figured, I know about my Scottish and Irish and Welsh ancestors, they are part of my heritage, of who I am today; and I thought that knowing about my Native heritage was just as important. So I found the Dawes Rolls, and looked up the family name, and there were my great-great-grandparents. G-g-grandmother was 1/4th Cherokee (G-g-grandfather was white), and I found their children, my great-grandfather listed as 1/8th. That was very exciting for me to find them, but that's all it was to me for a while, just something cool. I didn't have the cultural connections and wasn't sure I should claim I was Native if I've never learned about the culture.

Then a couple of things happened. I live on the Pacific Northwest Coast and have many Native friends. Several of them told me, after I found out about my Cherokee ancestors, "why haven't you enrolled with the Cherokee Nation? Are you ashamed?" That floored me, as I had thought that being hesitant was just because I didn't feel "Indian", not because of shame. It stung, and made me think about it more.

The second thing that happened is that I was trying to find out when my ancestors arrived in Oklahoma, and found that my 4xgreat grandparents (4xgreat-grandfather was white, 4xgreat-grandmother was full blood Cherokee) had left Tennessee in 1834 with a very large group of Cherokee and other Tribes. But my 4xgreat-grandparents never arrived in Oklahoma, just their children. I tried to find out more, and learn about Cadron Creek, where the group landed because they were taking the Arkansas River and it was too low for the boats. Many people got measles and cholera and died--my 4xgreat-grandparents died there too. That fact hit me very hard, almost like a blow in the pit of my stomach, and I realized these weren't just names on a list, they were my family!

Since then, I am aware as others have said, that I have not been raised learning and knowing about the Cherokee culture, but have been taking the time to educate myself as much as I can. There may be those who still say I'll never be truly Native, that 1/64th isn't really enough to be Native, but I'm doing this for myself, and especially for my children, who deserve to know as much as possible about all their heritage.

Sorry this is so long, but I did want to share my perspective on this. Thank you for listening. Hawkat
What seems to confuse people the most is when they are talking about blood quantum as a measurement of what it is to be Indian...

The Cherokee Nation along with a lot of other tribes do not use a "Minimum" Blood Quantum for registration purposes.
They use Lineal Discendancy as a basis for registration another words if you can prove "DIRECT" ancestry to a person that was on a particular roll (In this case Dawes Roll) then you would be a "Citizen" of the Cherokee Nation with full Rights as a Citizen no matter Blood Quantum same rights a Full Blood on down to 1/10000000000000.

Now here is the part that gets people confused,
That only makes you a "Citizen" of the Cherokee Nation but that is not the only thing that make you an Indian!

The other part is Language, Culture and community involvement and that is where the slope gets slippery and where a lot of folks get into trouble
For they feel that when they get their "Indian" Card that they will be a bona-fide Native American and can now go to Powwows and tell them folks there that they are One of them!!!

If they had been raised around there people they would know that typical Cherokees are not Powwow Peoples that most only ever go to Stomp Dances. That we have communities in Eastern Oklahoma and North Carolina that have never been to a Powwow nor care to. We have our Hog Frys and Gospel Sings and that is all and our language is spoken in those same communities everyday!

Get your Card! But don't stop there, learn your Ancestors, learn where they were buried and come to there Decoration day usually held sometime in May and show your kids where they came from!
Who knows you may meet your kinfolks that still live in the area and reconnect!
That is what it means to be Indian
Language, Culture, and FAMILY
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Till I Die!
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Old 10-01-2016, 12:21 PM   #91
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1/4 is already pushing it IMO let alone 1/64th. I could be 1/64th Chinese but that doesn't make me Chinese whatsoever. Considering people are rarely pure at 1/64th you're not Native to me. But that doesnt mean you still can't learn about the culture or whatnot, respectfully of course.
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