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Old 08-27-2018, 02:45 PM   #1
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Apache links in England

This may be a long shot, but ill start with stating that I am from Birmingham, England and recently began researching my family tree. My paternal grandmother seems to be convinced that her mother was a descendant of the Bedonkohe band of the Apache tribe. Her story says that the children of Geronimo, or atleast members of his family were taken from their families and sent to Europe, and one of which, a daughter came into my family line. Does anyone know if any children were taken from the tribe legally and put up for adoption, and if so, where were the locations and dates?

My Great grandmother when buried apparently was buried with an Indian headdress, and my own father also says that she did appear of Native American appearance.

Any information at all about the tribe would be great. I shall try and get more information and possibly any photographs from my grandmother, but she is very secure in what she talks about.

Thank you,

Sean
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Old 08-27-2018, 05:28 PM   #2
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Welcome to powwows.com.

Native peoples family trees tend to be fairly well documented. A famous man like Geronimo, who had lots of involvement with government and been the subject of much academic interest, isn't likely to have undocumented children. I suggest you read Angie Debo's book on Geronimo.

https://www.amazon.com/Geronimo-Plac.../dp/0806118288

She recorded information on his wives and children. And read the article below.

ICTM: Geronimo's Descendants
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Old 08-29-2018, 12:07 PM   #3
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I tought Geronimo's wife and children have been killed by the Mexicans once and his second wife and family by the US soldiers.

So, i don't think he has any descandents.
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:39 PM   #4
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He had 9 wives over the years.
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Old 08-30-2018, 08:08 AM   #5
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He had 9 wives over the years.
Really?

I did'nt knew that.Maybe he did have descendents fter all.
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Old 08-30-2018, 09:42 AM   #6
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Yes.

I hear stories and a number like that and I marvel at the strength of the old times folks. Even if he had two wives at once -- I have no idea if the Apache ever did that -- imagine the loss and grief embodied in that number. The number of women with whom he made a home, had children, prayed, laughed, and worked that he lost. Women killed by war, disease, childbirth, accident....

How do you muster the emotional energy to take the risk of taking another wife? Siring another child? Even if you form a marriage of convenience, because the old lifestyle required the labor of both sexes to form a viable economic unit, you're going to get attached. How do you do it?

In the face of that, I am amazed that there are any Indian people today. What faith and strength the ancestors must have had to risk bring a child into a post-apocalyptic world. Hecel oyate nin nipi kte.
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Old 08-31-2018, 11:04 AM   #7
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I don't think the Apaches had more than one wife because they loved they're family very much and would do everything to protect them. Maybe that's why they were such fearsome warriors and one of the last tribes to surrender.

Hecel oyate nin nipi kte. What dos this mean, is it Apache?
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Old 08-31-2018, 04:36 PM   #8
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buried with head dress? hmmmm sounds like family lore

apache traditionally bury very quickly and move from the spot and don't speak of the ceremony....ever

if she was apache and buried traditionally it is very likely you would hear about it.....because no one there would speak of it....trust me on this

its a sickness that white people want to be native so bad they grasp at straws
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Old 09-10-2018, 01:17 AM   #9
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Removed by me.

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Old 09-10-2018, 01:39 AM   #10
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Dear Sean

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogrady710 View Post
This may be a long shot, but ill start with stating that I am from Birmingham, England and recently began researching my family tree. My paternal grandmother seems to be convinced that her mother was a descendant of the Bedonkohe band of the Apache tribe. Her story says that the children of Geronimo, or atleast members of his family were taken from their families and sent to Europe, and one of which, a daughter came into my family line. Does anyone know if any children were taken from the tribe legally and put up for adoption, and if so, where were the locations and dates?

My Great grandmother when buried apparently was buried with an Indian headdress, and my own father also says that she did appear of Native American appearance.

Any information at all about the tribe would be great. I shall try and get more information and possibly any photographs from my grandmother, but she is very secure in what she talks about.

Thank you,

Sean
I have discovered my Native American/Inuit family history through DNA testing.

So, if you really want answers you need to get DNA testing. Ancestry, Myheritage and 23andme. Run the raw data through Gedmatch and DNA tribes and there's your answer. If your Great Grandmother was Native you should have a percentage. If it's not Native American you will find out exactly who you are. :) Good luck.

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Old 09-10-2018, 09:56 AM   #11
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With all due respect. It's not that white people want to be Native as you put it.
Actually in the states many non-Indians do. Some because they think they can get free education and health care or casino money. Others want a white-guilt get out of jail free card. And still others because they have been raised in such appalling ignorance of the riches of their own cultures, that they have to steal crumbs to fill their bellies.


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...You can't tell someone that they are grasping at straws when they are having an identity crisis and trying to figure out who they are. It's not very nice.

Life has already been mean to people who are displaced from their Natitivty and their cultural heritage. Try to understand what it feels like for someone who was raised to be Non-Native to discover they have missed out on so much. Then get rejected by Native people. Life is hard enough for Mixed race people. Open your heart ❤️
OK, this is a bit of hot button issue with me. Please listen to what I'm going to say with an "open heart."

I ask you to try to look at this from the perspective of a person raised knowing their tribe. A person who is living the life and death struggles to keep languages alive, prevent children from taking their own lives, recover an viable economy, preserve the scraps remaining after state sponsored cultural genocide... Shall I go on? For these people, the identity crisis of someone who can afford to hunt a heritage in their DNA is -- well I know this sounds cruel -- trivial.

I do understand understand your pain. At a point in my life, it was mine as well. I beg you to consider the reality of what you are claiming and have compassion and respect for those of a higher blood quantum.

In my over a half century on this planet, I've seen a lot of brutal attacks on full-blood or rez-born or phenotypically Indian looking people by thin-blooded, displaced mixed bloods. I've also come to respect and on a level understand what the battle to preserve and revive a wounded culture does to those who fight it.

These people and their tribes do not hold hostage the keys to your happiness and refuse them out of racism or spite. People and tribes have limited resources, they must marshall them for the most benefit. These people are living, preserving and revitalizing that which you as an iyeska are claiming. They are also just people, with all the faults and foibles one would expect of those who have struggled for so long. Compassion can be a limited resource. People can be scarred. Cut folks some slack. It will serve you well in the long run.

The first step in recovering a Native worldview is to realize it isn't about you. "That these people might live." Men and women don't sacrifice in the Sun Dance for themselves; they don't dance and pray for hours on the mesas for themselves. You (the generic you, not you in particular) may think you're going to be a great asset to your Native community. And you may well be -- someday but maybe not today. When a hammer is needed secure a board to shore up a wall, a wrench can be a poor substitute. You must learn to subordinate your needs to the well being of our children and grandchildren. When you do this, you will be honoring your ancestors.
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Old 09-10-2018, 10:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalako View Post
I don't think the Apaches had more than one wife because they loved they're family very much and would do everything to protect them.
I don't reserve the love of kin only for Native peoples :) All people love their families. Only the depraved or mentally ill don't. Even peoples who allowed the taking of multiple wives, loved their families.

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Hecel oyate nin nipi kte. What dos this mean, is it Apache?
That these people might live. It is a Lakota -- I'm not sure what exactly you're call it -- truism.
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Old 09-10-2018, 09:38 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Actually in the states many non-Indians do. Some because they think they can get free education and health care or casino money. Others want a white-guilt get out of jail free card. And still others because they have been raised in such appalling ignorance of the riches of their own cultures, that they have to steal crumbs to fill their bellies.




OK, this is a bit of hot button issue with me. Please listen to what I'm going to say with an "open heart."

I ask you to try to look at this from the perspective of a person raised knowing their tribe. A person who is living the life and death struggles to keep languages alive, prevent children from taking their own lives, recover an viable economy, preserve the scraps remaining after state sponsored cultural genocide... Shall I go on? For these people, the identity crisis of someone who can afford to hunt a heritage in their DNA is -- well I know this sounds cruel -- trivial.

I do understand understand your pain. At a point in my life, it was mine as well. I beg you to consider the reality of what you are claiming and have compassion and respect for those of a higher blood quantum.

In my over a half century on this planet, I've seen a lot of brutal attacks on full-blood or rez-born or phenotypically Indian looking people by thin-blooded, displaced mixed bloods. I've also come to respect and on a level understand what the battle to preserve and revive a wounded culture does to those who fight it.

These people and their tribes do not hold hostage the keys to your happiness and refuse them out of racism or spite. People and tribes have limited resources, they must marshall them for the most benefit. These people are living, preserving and revitalizing that which you as an iyeska are claiming. They are also just people, with all the faults and foibles one would expect of those who have struggled for so long. Compassion can be a limited resource. People can be scarred. Cut folks some slack. It will serve you well in the long run.

The first step in recovering a Native worldview is to realize it isn't about you. "That these people might live." Men and women don't sacrifice in the Sun Dance for themselves; they don't dance and pray for hours on the mesas for themselves. You (the generic you, not you in particular) may think you're going to be a great asset to your Native community. And you may well be -- someday but maybe not today. When a hammer is needed secure a board to shore up a wall, a wrench can be a poor substitute. You must learn to subordinate your needs to the well being of our children and grandchildren. When you do this, you will be honoring your ancestors.


Try to keep it current about the task at hand. You keep telling me it's not about me. It's not all about you either with all due respect. I need to address that. This thread is about somebody from England NOT America. He is not trying to get benefits as he lives in another country.He is asking for genuine advice on how to find out if he is Native. Many English people have African Ancestors who left behind masks, robes etc, it's not that unusual to have an Ancestor from another culture overseas.

We all want to know where we came from and what we are made of. It's the meaning of life.

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Old 09-10-2018, 10:38 PM   #14
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Wow, you so missed my point. Since you're going to quote scripture at me, go read Matthew 7:5. Before you rail at my me about my issues.

Ma'am, if I thought you were a bad person or an unreachable one, I'd have ignored you. I too work very hard and although I love the sound of my own voice, I could lavish it on others, LOL. If you were in my neck of the woods, I might even buy you lunch and teach you to bead. Learning works much better with a dish of beads in the middle of the table.

I don't care what color you are. I don't care how many alleles you have. I don't care what you call yourself in the privacy of your own home. You can trot around the internet calling yourself a Inuit and Cherokee descendant, 'til the cows come home. Be a descendant. Be a proud descendant. But wait for the community to call you by name.

I'm sorry but you have a poor grasp of how issues of Indian identity affect tribal communities in the states. You do not live in them; you do not live near them. You can read and visit but that is only shallow knowledge. Perhaps you have parallels in your country, but I don't know enough to say yeah or nay on that.

Tribes in the US exist in a precarious legal space. They have powers akin to states, and government to government relationships with the federal government, However this power is routinely undermined and reduced. From ex parte Crow Dog to termination and PL 280 tribal sovereignty has been and is under attack. We have seen very little expansion of our rights.

Tribal sovereignty is the name of the game in Indian Country. Sovereignty is what nations have. Without sovereignty and the power it imparts, tribal nations will cease to be nations. We stand to lose the political power to protect the People and become glorified heritage clubs.

One of the fundamental acts of a sovereign nations, is the right to determine membership. When individuals demand the right to assert tribal identity -- note I did not say descent -- without the consent of the community, they unintentionally undermine this sovereignty. All nations have borders and processes for entry and citizenship. Tribes, not the feds, not me, not you determine who is in and who is out.

Further the rights of Indian nations within the US are at mercies of local voters. The closer you get to a Rez the greater the resentment of the locals for the rights and privileges of the tribe. When voters perceive that there are large numbers of" box-checking Indians" or wacky 503c (Non-profit) tribes of folks who buy cards, they become ripe to extract revenge at the polls.

This is the risk in Indian identity claims. This is what I beg dislocated mixed-bloods understand and consider. Again that these people might live.

Should you be interested in a more through and cogent discussion of these issues I recommend:

Eva Marie Garroutte, Real Indians: Identity and the Survival of Native America, University of California Press, 2003.



Also, if you were to look up some of my other posts, you'd see I generally advocate for descendants to become educated and seek their kin. But, I strongly suggest they first learn to respect the needs of the Native communities and peoples they claim. That they come humble and willing to hear the words no or not now. That they learn to respect boundaries.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:07 AM   #15
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Look, you're getting waaay too personal here. I'm not going to defend myself when there is no need to.

I never said I was Cherokee.

I am in contact with my Native Family thank you for your concern. Your comments have become way to personal and I'm over the constant attacks whenever I post to another person which has nothing to do with you.

Your opinions, however informative they are, are hurtful, unnecessary and I feel harassed.

Still, you haven't told me what your Native identity is even though you constantly attack mine and other people's.

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Old 09-12-2018, 01:44 AM   #16
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OLChemist said "The closer you get to a Rez the greater the resentment of the locals for the rights and privileges of the tribe."

This was proven true once again when the largely non-Native population of Bismarck, ND did not want the Dakota Access Pipeline (DAP) in "their" backyards. So they whined and complained until it was moved next to and on the Standing Rock Reservation. Had that not been Indian Land, odds are it wouldn't have been moved there.
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:47 AM   #17
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I've matched up with many people who have Cherokee blood as well as Inuits. All of the people I match who have Cherokee blood are descendants of Fivekiller.
Sorry. My error. I was just working from what you said in another thread -- before you removed it. I guess I misunderstood.


I'm glad you found a relative. My people, the Oglala, place great value on kin. You know your place by knowing how you are related to those about you, human and otherwise. You are judged by whether or not you act appropriately within those relationships.

I've never I've never claimed to be anything other than the granddaughter of my grandfather. I don't live on the rez, tho' I have family back home. I do claim to be an ieyska, who has lived with open eyes and ears.


I am done speaking with you. I was not bullying you, despite what you think.
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:58 PM   #18
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OLChemist said "The closer you get to a Rez the greater the resentment of the locals for the rights and privileges of the tribe."

This was proven true once again when the largely non-Native population of Bismarck, ND did not want the Dakota Access Pipeline (DAP) in "their" backyards. So they whined and complained until it was moved next to and on the Standing Rock Reservation. Had that not been Indian Land, odds are it wouldn't have been moved there.
It should never have even been considered to use Standing Rock. I have donated what I can to help the Standing Rock Protest in the past. If I was a US citizen I would have been there to protest myself.

I believe in geopathic stress and how the earth gets bruised and sustains memory. They should use an area of land where the earth has already been disturbed and leave Reservation land alone.
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:43 PM   #19
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Thank you, I appreciate that.

I have found more than 1 person. I have found 4 remote Native communities in Nunavut and Alaska to which I am related by blood and to many people in each community.

It's been a long process to confirm that my grandfather was Inuit and Cree. I've learned a lot about Inuit culture and am planning to visit my family when weather permits.

I am secure in my Native identity. I wear it on my face and carry it in my blood. I have been accepted by my people. I feel very blessed to reconnect with my kin in this way.

I am also the granddaughter of my grandfather and I wish you well and I hope your future holds much happiness.
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Old 09-15-2018, 11:11 AM   #20
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table.

I don't care what color you are. I don't care how many alleles you have. I don't care what you call yourself in the privacy of your own home. You can trot around the internet calling yourself a Inuit and Cherokee descendant, 'til the cows come home. Be a descendant. Be a proud descendant. But wait for the community to call you by name.

I'm sorry but you have a poor grasp of how issues of Indian identity affect tribal communities in the states. You do not live in them; you do not live near them. You can read and visit but that is only shallow knowledge. Perhaps you have parallels in your country, but I don't know enough to say yeah or nay on that.

I agree with this. I am one generation (according to family lore, which may or may not even be accurate - and since that side of the family are still rotten bigots and have constantly refused to give us crucial information, I'll probably never know for sure) away from hypothetically, if I actually could get the information, registering as an Apache. But even if I were 50%, or 100%, documented Apache, with my personal cultural history and focus (which has chiefly been geared towards academic study and practical reconstruction of the religion of the Scandinavian side of my family), I would have no right to call myself Apache or try to sign up for any benefits as a result of that. My doctorate is in Scandinavian religion; I have learned to speak most of the Northern languages and read all of them. If I, even with an undocumentable probably-one-generation-too-late Apache heritage, had had the same calling to my Native ancestry and put the same thirty-plus years of effort into learning and being part of the nation that I have put into studying and understanding my Norse ancestors...then that would be different. If that had been the case, then, well, my impression is that every tribe can make a place for someone who makes a serious, long-term, full-out effort to become part of it (and I don't mean "Dances With German Shepherds" bs...I mean learning the languages, living the life, and a fair amount of shutting up and listening to learn).
But I could be 100% Apache genetically, and, had I been raised as I was and called by the Northern gods as I have been for these many years, I still would have no business calling myself part of the Apache nation. If I could fully document family lore, and were one generation further back and legally entitled - I would not be morally entitled to check "Native American", or to attempt to gain any of the (fairly pathetic in comparison to the actual losses) compensations now given.
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