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Old 08-28-2014, 04:13 PM   #21
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Self made anthropologists have been pulling this ish for centuries.

Go to the tribe, learn about the tribe, then spread a bunch of theories that the tribe don't agree with.
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Old 08-28-2014, 04:42 PM   #22
Ugh. As. If.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Maize Grower, I am a scientist. The ink on my PhD was a quarter of a century old last year and I've been working in academic, government and industrial labs for over thirty years. I do not say this to dismiss or belittle you. But, instead to suggest I might have a POV you would like to consider.

I'm not going to debate population genetics or mutational frequencies. I don't really care about where, when or how the alleles drifted. That is not this issue I have with the use of genomics.

Being a Native woman has raised a few ethical dilemmas in my pursuit of science. Science as practiced in every lab I've ever been in, discussed at every conference I've ever attended, taught in every book I've ever read is a dominant culture affair. And it clothes itself in an assumption of both a supremacy and universality that is at its very roots a Western, secular humanist affair.

In the ethos of science "truth," as discovered in the lab and espoused by the practitioners, trumps the transcendental. Assertions of "non-overlapping magisteria" or descriptive vs proscriptive still demand the imposition a very Western of a physical/spiritual divide that is very difficult to reconcile with my people's teachings.

This viewpoint carries over into the use of scientific knowledge within and by the body politic. When I worked on a DOD funded project associated with a weapons lab, I was routinely questioned about the existential implications of my work. But, no one in the larger culture asks about the existential implications of work in population genetics. Genomic information is packaged in the cellophane of "universal truth."

So, let's look at your Siberian DNA. Native people are just one more set of immigrants. They have no greater or lesser moral claim on the land. They are no different than the borderland militias whining about the Spanish speaking brown people. And more damaging, accepting this forces the secular humanist framework onto our cultures. We divide our souls to serve those non-overlapping magisteria. There are those within our communities who correctly ask those of us in science and who use science to guide our decision making to look at the data with Native eyes.
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Old 08-28-2014, 05:35 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
Am I understanding you went inside yourself to find out your heritage and culture?
No, there's a difference between who and what. Who you are is only something you get from taking a good look at yourself's inner thoughts and feelings. What you are physically or ethnically is entirely out of your control since it's what you were born as or into. Who is a question of the inner being, what is a question of the outer. You get what I'm saying now?
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Old 08-28-2014, 05:53 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Maize Grower, I am a scientist. The ink on my PhD was a quarter of a century old last year and I've been working in academic, government and industrial labs for over thirty years. I do not say this to dismiss or belittle you. But, instead to suggest I might have a POV you would like to consider.

I'm not going to debate population genetics or mutational frequencies. I don't really care about where, when or how the alleles drifted. That is not this issue I have with the use of genomics.

Being a Native woman has raised a few ethical dilemmas in my pursuit of science. Science as practiced in every lab I've ever been in, discussed at every conference I've ever attended, taught in every book I've ever read is a dominant culture affair. And it clothes itself in an assumption of both a supremacy and universality that is at its very roots a Western, secular humanist affair.

In the ethos of science "truth," as discovered in the lab and espoused by the practitioners, trumps the transcendental. Assertions of "non-overlapping magisteria" or descriptive vs proscriptive still demand the imposition a very Western of a physical/spiritual divide that is very difficult to reconcile with my people's teachings.

This viewpoint carries over into the use of scientific knowledge within and by the body politic. When I worked on a DOD funded project associated with a weapons lab, I was routinely questioned about the existential implications of my work. But, no one in the larger culture asks about the existential implications of work in population genetics. Genomic information is packaged in the cellophane of "universal truth."

So, let's look at your Siberian DNA. Native people are just one more set of immigrants. They have no greater or lesser moral claim on the land. They are no different than the borderland militias whining about the Spanish speaking brown people. And more damaging, accepting this forces the secular humanist framework onto our cultures. We divide our souls to serve those non-overlapping magisteria. There are those within our communities who correctly ask those of us in science and who use science to guide our decision making to look at the data with Native eyes.

I agree that it is politically and emotionally difficult, but I also know that most of the genetic material is unaccounted for and there are some hypotheses suggesting that the migration was from here to there since most of the DNA hasn't been found in the Eastern Hemisphere. Even if it turns out that we did all immigrate, we were still here first, and the first to claim something has always been the one to own it. In my humble opinion, the land claim is not diminished in the slightest by accepting the scientific analyses of the ancient past.
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Old 08-28-2014, 06:08 PM   #25
Ugh. As. If.
 
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yeah that totally makes sense....
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Old 08-28-2014, 07:08 PM   #26
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Shovel-shaped incisors.

There's some sort of genetic connection.

I don't perceive this as problematic.
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maize-Grower View Post
No, there's a difference between who and what. Who you are is only something you get from taking a good look at yourself's inner thoughts and feelings. What you are physically or ethnically is entirely out of your control since it's what you were born as or into. Who is a question of the inner being, what is a question of the outer.
Hmmmmm. Maybe this is just a Cherokee thing. To me it reads much more as western dualism. But I'm not Cherokee :)

I'm not sure how I could form or for that matter examine my inner thoughts and feelings except as they relate to other people or powers -- mostly with some type of culturally kinship relationship and responsibility. As a human I exist within a culturally prescribed and proscribed framework. This shapes the mores and norms I live by, governs the modes and nature of my interaction with transcendent powers, and dictates the language which molds my worldview.

From my perspective, who is a product of what.

Or maybe I read too much Sapir and Benedict as an undergrad -- dang liberal arts education.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maize-Grower View Post
I agree that it is politically and emotionally difficult...
Here is where we get into Rose's Unofficial Ethics of Being a Non-enrolled, Mixed blood. As a non-enrolled person, I have to be aware that I am insulated from the political fate of my Nation. My kinship connections are more tenuous, so I am less subject to mechanisms of social constraint. This means there may issues where I may hold a point of view contrary to the community consensus, but my circumstances insulate me from aspects of the damage asserting my viewpoint would do. These are areas where I believe it is incumbent on me to be circumspect.

Conversations about these types of sensitive issues need to occur among those socially and politically fully invested in their tribal communities. It is not the place of outsiders -- sorry, in my book that is what many of us, urban born, non-enrolled, mixed bloods are. Further, it is my responsibility is be especially sensitive to the will of the community in these matters.

Now, you say what is the harm in the land bridge. Ignoring the land claim for a moment, consider that when you say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maize-Grower View Post
I know my ancestors' creation story; and I know it's impossible for the whole continent to float on the back of a water bug.
you are potentially challenging someone's deeply held religious belief. You are asserting that your understanding of the water bug as a garden variety member of Dytiscidae is superior to their understanding of a supernatural being. With an adult this is just confrontational. But with a child, you are calling into doubt the teachings of his parents and community. Didn't we get enough of that in the boarding schools where our beliefs, manners, languages, even foods where regarded as primitive determents to development?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maize-Grower View Post
In my humble opinion, the land claim is not diminished in the slightest by accepting the scientific analyses of the ancient past.
Promise me that the politicians and American people will see it that way.... But I bet it will just lead to another chorus of: "we came, we conquered, we won, you lost."
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Hmmmmm. Maybe this is just a Cherokee thing. To me it reads much more as western dualism. But I'm not Cherokee :)"
It's the OP's thing....he/she said as much
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:41 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maize-Grower View Post
No, there's a difference between who and what. Who you are is only something you get from taking a good look at yourself's inner thoughts and feelings. What you are physically or ethnically is entirely out of your control since it's what you were born as or into. Who is a question of the inner being, what is a question of the outer. You get what I'm saying now?
If who you are is seperate from your ethnicity, what are you doing here? You might as well put on a FUBU shirt and do stand up at the Apollo, Or go on the 700 club wearing a tight tie and a toupee.

I saw on another thread you were asking about the Cherokee language.. Why don't you learn Mongolian? What part of you desires to be in touch with your NDN culture? If Cherokee is only what you are but not who you are.... you aren't Cherokee.

Maybe in February...
(Inside joke)
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Old 08-29-2014, 02:53 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Hmmmmm. Maybe this is just a Cherokee thing. To me it reads much more as western dualism. But I'm not Cherokee :)

I'm not sure how I could form or for that matter examine my inner thoughts and feelings except as they relate to other people or powers -- mostly with some type of culturally kinship relationship and responsibility. As a human I exist within a culturally prescribed and proscribed framework. This shapes the mores and norms I live by, governs the modes and nature of my interaction with transcendent powers, and dictates the language which molds my worldview.

From my perspective, who is a product of what.

Or maybe I read too much Sapir and Benedict as an undergrad -- dang liberal arts education.
That's just the way I see it. Mom always said we are our soul (which she defines as the mind, will, and emotions), and we have a body. If there is a consensus among Cherokees, it probably follows the Christian majority's perspective. (Cue the christian in-fighting.)

Quote:
Here is where we get into Rose's Unofficial Ethics of Being a Non-enrolled, Mixed blood. As a non-enrolled person, I have to be aware that I am insulated from the political fate of my Nation. My kinship connections are more tenuous, so I am less subject to mechanisms of social constraint. This means there may issues where I may hold a point of view contrary to the community consensus, but my circumstances insulate me from aspects of the damage asserting my viewpoint would do. These are areas where I believe it is incumbent on me to be circumspect.

Conversations about these types of sensitive issues need to occur among those socially and politically fully invested in their tribal communities. It is not the place of outsiders -- sorry, in my book that is what many of us, urban born, non-enrolled, mixed bloods are. Further, it is my responsibility is be especially sensitive to the will of the community in these matters.
I should be more sensitive. I'm told quite often that I'm too blunt and tend to rub people the wrong way. (PM coming about the rest.)


Quote:
Now, you say what is the harm in the land bridge. Ignoring the land claim for a moment, consider that when you say:

you are potentially challenging someone's deeply held religious belief. You are asserting that your understanding of the water bug as a garden variety member of Dytiscidae is superior to their understanding of a supernatural being. With an adult this is just confrontational. But with a child, you are calling into doubt the teachings of his parents and community. Didn't we get enough of that in the boarding schools where our beliefs, manners, languages, even foods where regarded as primitive determents to development?
I totally thought the people I was talking to were adults. I don't see the various sacred stories as primitive. I think they're useful as metaphors and teach people to live a good life. Every culture has them.

Quote:
Promise me that the politicians and American people will see it that way.... But I bet it will just lead to another chorus of: "we came, we conquered, we won, you lost."
Yeah, I can't. I think the bulk of the US population is incapable of rational thought when it comes to politics. Seems like most folk run entirely on emotion. Kinda disturbing really. I got into it with some people my age who said that Japan's big tsunami in 2011 was God's punishment for Pearl Harbor... That's pretty absurd on its face but people are crazy these days.
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Old 08-29-2014, 03:44 AM   #31
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If who you are is seperate from your ethnicity, what are you doing here? You might as well put on a FUBU shirt and do stand up at the Apollo, Or go on the 700 club wearing a tight tie and a toupee.

I saw on another thread you were asking about the Cherokee language.. Why don't you learn Mongolian? What part of you desires to be in touch with your NDN culture? If Cherokee is only what you are but not who you are.... you aren't Cherokee.

Maybe in February...
(Inside joke)
What's a "FUBU shirt"? Isn't Apollo a Space program and a Roman God of War? I don't own a working TV, so if it's something on Cable or regular TV, you're going to have to explain it... Or if it's a new phone app, I just have a phone that makes calls.

I know some Cherokee already, mostly plant names because mine is a family of farmers mostly. But, where we live (rural SE Ohio), there is nobody to practice with outside of the family. How can I get better at it without talking to others who know more of it?

"What part of you desires to be in touch with your NDN culture?"

Isn't it natural to be curious about your family's language and culture outside the scope of your immediate household?
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:22 AM   #32
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Isn't it natural to be curious about your family's language and culture outside the scope of your immediate household?
Maybe, but if it's not part of who you are, your identity, what's the point?

It becomes a HOBBY.

Might as well speak English.
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:41 PM   #33
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I know some Cherokee already, But, where we live (rural SE Ohio),
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Old 08-29-2014, 08:02 PM   #34
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Maybe, but if it's not part of who you are, your identity, what's the point?

It becomes a HOBBY.

Might as well speak English.
I'll give that some thought. I'm still pretty young and have been thinking about my identity and how it relates to others but it ain't real clear.

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What? You don't like Ohio? The weather is pretty nice and the land is fertile and green. Also lots of hickory trees. I kinda can't wait for the fall so we can go nut gathering. I love the things in soup.
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Old 08-29-2014, 10:31 PM   #35
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Maize-Grower, can I make a suggestion?

In my younger days, I had some stress and uncertainty about my identity. I went home. I went back to the land where my people's stories happened. When I felt it in my heart, I figured it out.

Take those stories and go home. I lived in the Smokeys for five years while I was in college. When I needed Indian time, I drove through Newfound Gap over to NC. If that land can speak to a plains dweller like me, I suspect it might have volumes to say to you.

Once you've seen an entire mountain side light up in with the synchronized flash of tens of thousands of fireflies, you may find there is an spiritual dimension to Photinus carolinus reproduction. Or seen a 29" hellbender salamander, giant spiritual beetles not be too far fetched. Go to a mountain stream.

One of things that makes us Native people is our ties to this land. Our metaphorical garden of Eden is here. Our roots are deep. You said you don't know anyone at Qualla. If you know the stories, you know the land. Ohio is similar, but it is not home (in the metaphysical sense). Maybe this is why you are struggling with identity.
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Old 08-30-2014, 03:35 PM   #36
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Maize-Grower, can I make a suggestion?

In my younger days, I had some stress and uncertainty about my identity. I went home. I went back to the land where my people's stories happened. When I felt it in my heart, I figured it out.

Take those stories and go home. I lived in the Smokeys for five years while I was in college. When I needed Indian time, I drove through Newfound Gap over to NC. If that land can speak to a plains dweller like me, I suspect it might have volumes to say to you.

Once you've seen an entire mountain side light up in with the synchronized flash of tens of thousands of fireflies, you may find there is an spiritual dimension to Photinus carolinus reproduction. Or seen a 29" hellbender salamander, giant spiritual beetles not be too far fetched. Go to a mountain stream.

One of things that makes us Native people is our ties to this land. Our metaphorical garden of Eden is here. Our roots are deep. You said you don't know anyone at Qualla. If you know the stories, you know the land. Ohio is similar, but it is not home (in the metaphysical sense). Maybe this is why you are struggling with identity.
Maybe next summer, instead of growing crops (have to stay and harvest this year's or I'd go tomorrow) I'll just have to walk down there or hitch a ride or something. I don't think my car could make it as it is now.
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