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Old 09-12-2010, 02:07 PM   #21
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I understand that each tribe wants to be shown as a strong nation, but wouldn't it be better if they went by how much native you are as a whole? I am 1/4 Navajo, 1/4 Oklahoma Choctaw, and 1/4 Mississippi Band of Choctaw. How is it that the Mississippi Band wouldn't take me because I'm not half, but the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma would and counted both groups of choctaw to make me half? That's just crazy. They come from the same place. I'm sure both groups had the same ancestors.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:20 PM   #22
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What about Tribes with per capita, and other Tribal benefits, like land, homes, health care, etc.?

Seems like some might see a large surge in memberships, based upon the benefits. You get so many members, there's not that many benefits.

Seems like making requirements other than ancestry makes it more like some sort of club. If you are a Tribal member it's something you are born into, not because you took some sort of test.

Maybe they should have some sort of interim membership, intern, or honorary membership, maybe a naturalized member, while certain privileges are withheld. The US has many naturalized citizens, certain privileges/rights are withheld. Like a Naturalized citizen cannot be President.

If Tribes die out, that's just a natural demographic trend not much can be done about it. Just opening up membership, or citizenship, does not really change that, they still don't have any Indians. Just figure if you're Indian, you are in short supply. You know how to make more Indians.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:26 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ChahtaGrasser View Post
I understand that each tribe wants to be shown as a strong nation, but wouldn't it be better if they went by how much native you are as a whole? I am 1/4 Navajo, 1/4 Oklahoma Choctaw, and 1/4 Mississippi Band of Choctaw. How is it that the Mississippi Band wouldn't take me because I'm not half, but the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma would and counted both groups of choctaw to make me half? That's just crazy. They come from the same place. I'm sure both groups had the same ancestors.
I can actually answer this, I think.LOL

THe Mississippi band of Choctaw had a blood quantum limit due to them being outside of IT aka Oklahoma. The Choctaw of OK were one of the 5 civilized Nations, per the gov. So they were the ones who moved from the East or Southern states to IT way back when. And when they did that the gov, at that time, "allowed" them to accept member's no matter what their blood quantum was. Back as early as the 1850's it is stated in gov records that the gov themselves didn't recognize anyone as being Native who was less then 1/4 NDN. And if you actually look at many of the tribal enrollments (Choctaw or Cherokee--both OK and East) you will see that they had many member's who were less then that who were listed on the Rolls as being tribal members. For the EBC this changed on the 1908 Churchill roll where people, who themselves and their ancestor's had all been on all the previous rolls were being rejected for tribal membership. However, by comparing both the CNO Dawes roll and the EBC Churchill roll you will find that many people who were rejected that any of their relations (siblings, parents, grandparents, children, etc.) who went to IT around that time were automatically accepted as members of the CNO on the Dawes Roll. Now, I haven't gone too much into the other 4 Civilized Nations, but the Dawes Roll, basically, covered them all if you read the info from the Dawes commission.

And the same goes the same way with the CNO, they will accept EBC Blood and CNO as a whole, but I think (If I remember right) the same is true in reverse, the EBC will accept CNO blood together with EBC. Why the Choctaw don't, that I really don't know, but the OK tribe is explained through the Dawes Commission, actually. But it's an aweful lot of reading.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:42 AM   #24
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Maybe they should have some sort of interim membership, intern, or honorary membership, maybe a naturalized member, while certain privileges are withheld....

gtb,

I think you are on to something! Perhaps as blood quantum are being filtered out and roll decendency is being debated, a system differentiating tribal membership and tribal decendency can be adopted? Whatcha' think? Each would have different criteria and benefits.
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:43 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by WhoMe View Post
gtb,

I think you are on to something! Perhaps as blood quantum are being filtered out and roll decendency is being debated, a system differentiating tribal membership and tribal decendency can be adopted? Whatcha' think? Each would have different criteria and benefits.
We allow foreign-born persons to join the U.S. Military, get a greencard (immigrate) and get in line for eventual U.S. citizenship. and then can sponsor their other siblings and even their parents to immigrate into the U.S.

The soldiers then can marry a foreigner and give them an "automatic" greencard. Then that foreign spouse eventually gains U.S. citizenship, and THEIR blood relatives clamor to be brought to the U.S.

I give this as an example of how systems start as a good idea, then get overwhelmed in the long run.

It would only take two generations for the Natives to get "out-numbered" by newcomers, so yes voting rights and tribal council membership rights should be protected by original descendants.

Last edited by AmigoKumeyaay; 09-27-2010 at 03:33 PM.. Reason: shortened for easier reading
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:15 PM   #26
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gtb,

I think you are on to something! Perhaps as blood quantum are being filtered out and roll decendency is being debated, a system differentiating tribal membership and tribal decendency can be adopted? Whatcha' think? Each would have different criteria and benefits.
I thought that already occurred?

I know enrolled skinz get their CDIB from the Tribal Office, and the decscendants usuualy go to the BIA office with documents in hand and BIA will write them a descendency letter - so they can go to IHS LOL.
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:47 PM   #27
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:50 PM   #28
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this is such a sad conversation for some. But the choices are few good. I have to tell my my grandchildren that they aren't Indian but that they have a history to be proud of. I think its harder for me than them at times.Thats just how it is.
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:40 PM   #29
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I can actually answer this, I think.LOL

THe Mississippi band of Choctaw had a blood quantum limit due to them being outside of IT aka Oklahoma. The Choctaw of OK were one of the 5 civilized Nations, per the gov. So they were the ones who moved from the East or Southern states to IT way back when. And when they did that the gov, at that time, "allowed" them to accept member's no matter what their blood quantum was. Back as early as the 1850's it is stated in gov records that the gov themselves didn't recognize anyone as being Native who was less then 1/4 NDN. And if you actually look at many of the tribal enrollments (Choctaw or Cherokee--both OK and East) you will see that they had many member's who were less then that who were listed on the Rolls as being tribal members. For the EBC this changed on the 1908 Churchill roll where people, who themselves and their ancestor's had all been on all the previous rolls were being rejected for tribal membership. However, by comparing both the CNO Dawes roll and the EBC Churchill roll you will find that many people who were rejected that any of their relations (siblings, parents, grandparents, children, etc.) who went to IT around that time were automatically accepted as members of the CNO on the Dawes Roll. Now, I haven't gone too much into the other 4 Civilized Nations, but the Dawes Roll, basically, covered them all if you read the info from the Dawes commission.

And the same goes the same way with the CNO, they will accept EBC Blood and CNO as a whole, but I think (If I remember right) the same is true in reverse, the EBC will accept CNO blood together with EBC. Why the Choctaw don't, that I really don't know, but the OK tribe is explained through the Dawes Commission, actually. But it's an aweful lot of reading.
Have you ever run across cases where different rolls for the same tribe had different BQ values for the same people? On an earlier roll the individual is listed, for example, as 1/4, but then 20 years later is listed as 1/32? Wonder why that happened.
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:31 PM   #30
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i'm more ndn than you...
LOL, ok. See, this is what I'm curious about.

One person is more "indian" than another based upon what?

skin colour?

knowledge of your tribes culture?

genetics?

participation in your tribes culture?

knowledge/use of your tribes language?

What determines if one person is more "indian" than another?

I beleive this is question I posed to Zeke before and really never got a answer, well, one that I don't remember anyway. LOL "If we don't use blood quantum, what do we use to determine tribal membership?

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Old 09-13-2010, 04:39 PM   #31
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If you continue to claim a BQ = 1/4 and if you can only marry a person within your tribe in order to keep your BQ, you will not find new members in a few generastions. But if you drop the BQ, this would mean even a white could become a member!!! How could you avoid this from happening? There are plenty of whites who would like to become a member, no?

Would it not be more correct to determine the memberships based on other conditions, like historical knowledge, social, cultural and language activity, and things like this? But than again, a white could become a member!
(Who is white? How do you determine it? Also with a BQ?)

A last thing, being a member of a tribe does it make you more Indian than one who is not member? It may be that the non-member is making more effort to live and follow the tribal traditions that the member! For me, this person would be more Indian than a member not doing any efforts, no?
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Old 09-13-2010, 07:22 PM   #32
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Have you ever run across cases where different rolls for the same tribe had different BQ values for the same people? On an earlier roll the individual is listed, for example, as 1/4, but then 20 years later is listed as 1/32? Wonder why that happened.
Well, I've heard of that and seen a little of it, not that much. I'm not sure what 'caused that, yet but am checking into it.

I have also seen and heard of where two siblings who have the same mother and father have two different blood quantums.

Both times I think that at the time the people themselves didn't think it mattered much and left it go. Just my opinion here but not totally sure, again.

I also know of a many who's full blood. He was listed as 4/4's all his life and then a few years ago (about 10 or so) they changed it to 3/4 Kiowa and 1/4 Arapaho (which he is Arapaho as well but enrolled through the Kiowa's) and he was telling me about it.

Actually it wasn't the NDN people who did the BQ thing, it was the gov. So I really don't know that they really realized what it would mean later down the road, they just went with it at the time. This, as far as I can tell, became a big thing around the 1900's, not really too much before then. That's the rolls that I'm seeing it more with then any other's. Some of the ones before the 1900's maybe mentioned that someone was "full blood" or stated "half blood" and once or twice it said "Quarter blood" but it wasn't with everyone on the rolls, just a few in most cases.

Last edited by timmy tiger; 09-13-2010 at 07:26 PM..
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:18 AM   #33
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Or it could be that the individual being enrolled back in the day had family/friends in the census office who provided a degree of blood that was incorrect (more than it should have been) and the shadiness was later caught and corrected (to the degree that it should have been in the first place).

It could be due to a number of reasons!!!!!
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:25 PM   #34
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Legally - The Navajo tribal has a BQ = 1/4. A few years ago the Navajo Nation Council debated reducing it. One reason was single mothers who don't list fathers on their children's birth certificates cut their BQ in half. So, some Navajos could not enroll, even thought they were probably at least 1/4.

Culturally - Our identity is based on clans. 1st - you are what your mother is. This is your first clan and your identity. 2nd you are born for your father's clan. This identifies all your paternal relations. 3rd you identify your maternal grandfather's clan and lastly you identify your paternal grandfather's clan.

So historically Navajos began with the 4 original clans. Now we have A LOT (not sure how many.. over 20-50?). How did this happen? Well, it's because our society is "inclusive" not "exclusive". When a new person from another tribe or race joined with a Navajo, a new clan was created. For example, Tlogi "weaver" they say comes from Zia pueblo. Maii dezh gishni "coyote pass" came from Jemez pueblo. And Nakai Dine' "Mexican people" is self-explanatory.

I heard a speech from a well known Navajo man who was very proud of the fact that his grandson's 4 clans were all one of the 4 original clans. That is what got me to thinking. So if someone who was a great great grandchild did not have any Navajo identity in their 4 clans, would my masanii (gma) have considered he or she to be Navajo??? Yes. because even recently I heard a young girl say besh bi jaah dine' - "hats made of metal" to identify her German heritage. ; )

SO...... when I think of BQ vs. cultural identity, I keep trying to think of some way to adopt the clan system. I'm still ponsering.....
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Old 09-16-2010, 05:20 AM   #35
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gtb,

I think you are on to something! Perhaps as blood quantum are being filtered out and roll decendency is being debated, a system differentiating tribal membership and tribal decendency can be adopted? Whatcha' think? Each would have different criteria and benefits.
I think it's a good idea. Maybe some Tribes already do something similar. Some Tribes have very low BQ requirements to be a full member, not even paying attention to Federal requirements of 1/4 blood. Making them very large Tribes, while other use the Fed. requirements, making them very small Tribes. Some Tribes are divided into Bands, or Clans, making them every smaller, with requirements by Band/Clan, for benefits, making them even smaller. I don't know if they are counted as part of the larger Tribe. Of course some are scattered across several States. With various Tribes/Bands/Clans.

It might be two different things that some are talking about, one is legal, the other might be just for something other than the legal, or the Tribal benefits. Some may not be interested in the Tribal benefits, just a family thing.

Like with the US, some people are Naturalized citizens, but they can't be President. Some are citizens, like PR, but certain things are withheld, like they don't have Senators, are not a State, same with D.C.

The legal requirement for being a citizens/member of a Tribe stays intact, while the overall general membership increases, you have two classes of citizenship/membership, one not entirely based upon BQ, but maybe some BQ is required, not the Fed. requirement. Other family connections could be considered, like being married to Indian. In some Tribes, if one parent is Indian, the whole family is considered Indian, at least I've been told that, but that does not mean that all family members meet the legal requirement for the all the Tribal benefits. A CDIB would still be required. Constitutions change, always being amended. Probably an on going thing.

Some Tribes have provisions that you can only belong to one Tribe/Band/Clan, you have to make a choice. You can't be a legal member of several, even though that's your lineage. You can't collect Tribal benefits from several Tribes. They usually pick the one with the most benefits.

I'm 4/4ths Indian, but from 2 Bands, of the same Tribe, I belong to a Tribe/Band that list me as 1/2 Indian. My kids are 1/4, and so forth. Their kids will not be Tribal members, unless they marry within the Tribe/Band. Both Bands the I'am descendent from are Federally recognized. I just chose my mother's band because of the benefits, but was connect to both Bands, as I lived on each reservation for various times while growing up, and remain connected to both Bands, informally, both Bands consider me a Tribal member, but legally, I am only a Tribal member of one Band/Tribe, and only 1/2, but I am 4/4ths Indian.

I feel my grandkids should be recognized as Tribal members even though they may not be entitled to Tribal benefits. If that's what they choose to do, or want to do. They should be automatically Naturalized into the Tribe, based upon their lineage, and their family connnections, and other connections, to the Tribe. It would be a limited/restricted membership/citizenship. Our family names go back generations in the Tribe, all documented, and on the official rolls. We are even documented back to when they did not have last names.
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Old 09-17-2010, 09:13 AM   #36
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...not even paying attention to Federal requirements of 1/4 blood. Making them very large Tribes, while other use the Fed. requirements, ... not the Fed. requirement.
gt,

The federal government does not have blood quantum requirements. They leave it up to the tribes to detemine their own criteria for tribal membership.


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based upon their lineage, and their family connnections, and other connections, to the Tribe. It would be a limited/restricted membership/citizenship. Our family names go back generations in the Tribe, all documented, and on the official rolls. We are even documented back to when they did not have last names.

I think this is worth consideration. I am a stake holder as are many of you in insuring that our future grandchildren be connected to their tribe(s) and on their rolls.

I too have a lineage of ancestors with only NdN names.
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Old 09-17-2010, 01:22 PM   #37
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My impression was that Tribes can and do determine such, but what the Fed requirement is for is benefits. Like in the case of land grants, and dispersing monies from law suits, from treaties, and such. Perhaps per capita payments from Tribal enterprises like casinos. It's all that legalise, that they get into.
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Old 09-17-2010, 01:52 PM   #38
Ugh. As. If.
 
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i don't need to see someone's cdib to recognize them as ndn...
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Old 09-17-2010, 03:30 PM   #39
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i don't need to see someone's cdib to recognize them as ndn...
I guess that's true, but some gotta have all these "papers", gets to be so everybody's got to have them. I have dozens of "papers". Probably need a secretary just to keep track of them all. Can't leave home without them. I went to the IHS clinic once, they wanted to see all kinds of "papers", must have spent an hour or so with just "papers". They could see I was Indian, don't know what their problems was, maybe I didn't have my war bonnet on.
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Old 09-18-2010, 02:14 PM   #40
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They could see I was Indian, don't know what their problems was, maybe I didn't have my war bonnet on.


gtb,

Thanks for the laugh!

People approach me every single day at work who have heard they were Indians from other family members, but can't prove it. Many insist that they look like an Indian (because they have high cheek bones, brown complexions and black straight hair) so therefore, they must be.

Today someone even came in with a bunch of nonIndian researchers and claimed to be a "Crow expert." I asked him a few questions and found out he "was full of it."

Another older man today, came towards me and said "How!" I said, "How what?" He said he was Narrangansett and that is how his people say their greeting. I just laughed and said "kewl." ...And to think he is speaking for Indian people to his family and others who he comes into contact with and spreading false information.


In some aspects, tribes need to issue cards to determine who their membership is.
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