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Forum Home - Go Back > General > Ancestry and Genealogy Family hid for 20 yrs..in deep hills of KY? Family hid for 20 yrs..in deep hills of KY?

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Old 09-16-2014, 07:58 AM   #21
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Noble Fields

Was Noble born in 1918?

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XM6C-S5P
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Old 09-16-2014, 08:03 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
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When you are doing Research you start with your self with what you know. Set aside All preconceived notions and stories and start with your self and work backwards. Parents then Grand parents and so forth. Understand that names are misspelled look for variations of the same spelling. Use phonetic spelling, for the census takers were not always educated in the correct spelling of names there were variations. Look at original documents do not rely on Indexes that have been entered into databases, for some people today have a hard time reading cursive which most censuses were written in prior to 1900.
But understand something here this kind of research is HARD, that is why there are people that do it for a living perhaps if you want to know once and for all it is time to hire one of these people that specialize in this kind of work.
Here is a good place to start: American Indian Records in the National Archives
Once again.......
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Old 09-16-2014, 08:07 AM   #23
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Noble

This shows a different birth date from the other record. This is a common occurrence.

Noble Fields 1, 2 was born on 21 Nov 1916 in Clay County, Kentucky. He died on 2 Oct 1990 in Clay County, Kentucky. He was buried 3 in Cradle Bow Cemetery, Chestnutburg, Kentucky.
Noble married Unknown in Clay County, Kentucky.


source:

Hiram Fields - pafg06.htm - Generated by Personal Ancestral File
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Old 09-16-2014, 09:27 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken1 View Post
Also the limited information I do have of my grandmother and great grandmother even on gen. sites.. stops at Mattie Bird with no husband and I know she was married.. Also what little I found on Noble is her married Nola. lol. Did find out my grandmothers full name was Myrtle Nola Smith born March 1927 died 1997 and Noble born 1917 died 1990 but when I start looking past those the information gets inaccurate .. they are listed as having 12 children but I know that they had 16. :-( I just do not understand why the information just keeps stopping or gets mixed in with others of the similar or same names?
What websites are you using?

The National Archive is the main storage of all Federal Census from 1940 and back (1930,1920,1910 ect)
The 1890 Census was Destroyed and very little remains
Anything earlier than 1850 only the Head of Household is listed by full name it will not show maiden names for the wives

There are websites that have copied the archives and have them available on there website for a fee. The LDS have the Ancestry.com website that links that and for a fee you can look at those records.

I am not familiar with tribal records of tribes on the east coast nor do I have access to there records.

I am more Familiar with Southeastern Tribes for they used similar methods to track there Citizens and the Agency Records of Plain's tribes don't typically start until 1880 to present.

I would suggest you read the link I provided fro you regarding the National Archives it is a lot of reading but it gives very good pointers on where and how to search for these records. I would also suggest you hire a researcher to do this they have a very good fee structure and will work out something if need be.
Good Luck
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Old 09-16-2014, 09:41 AM   #25
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Time for a teachable moment, I hope. Please note, I am speaking to a larger issue here, rather than any specifics of your case.


Assertions of Native identity have political implications. Tribes aren't just collections of families with a shared culture; they are political entities with responsibilities to their citizens and formal relationships with other Tribes and Nations. Every sovereign nation has established practices by which it marshals and distributes resources among its citizens, one of these is establishing standards of membership. Witness the ongoing flap about illegal immigration in the US.

Our Tribes' sovereignty has been under assault since 1492. In the US it is a strange and delicate thing. Membership is one of the areas where Tribes -- not the US government -- is in control. When groups or individual claim membership in Tribes, it is the equivalent of the tunnel under the border wall. Further, our tribes' political fate is too often in the hands of an electorate that often sees treaties, reservations, and tribal governments as a reproach upon the American ideals on individualism and egalitarianism. When they see the antics of a group of phenotypically non-Indian looking people practicing a mishmash of distorted, appropriated cultural practices and asserting a history with no documentary evidence, they are not infrequently moved to hostility against the Tribes. Look at the media coverage of Elizabeth Warren -- that was a veritable negative stereotype festival, which will have implications when voters and lawmakers decide issues regarding the relationship of states and the feds to the Tribes.

For this reasons, tribes and member of tribes are often so adamant in asserting these boundaries. This is like it or not why boundaries matter. It is why this is a touchy issue. It is not about phenotype. It is not about sharing the pie. It is about tribal sovereignty, pure and simple.

On this forum it is not uncommon for enrolled citizens of Tribes to be attacked precisely because they are enrolled. They will be compared to pedigreed animals, called sellouts or racists -- by people who claim to be part of their culture. People who should care about the political integrity of their Tribe.

It is a very different thing to to assert descendancy. That kind of link, properly asserted, does not attack tribal sovereignty.

Let me illustrate. I am 1/4 Scots. I know my clan and sept; I've been to visit the "Old Country" and meet the distant cousin or two. On Burns Day, I'll serve you some neebs and tatties and cranachan (forget the Haggis -- I think my ancestors left the old country to escape the puddlings made with oats and lungs, LOL). I am free to enjoy Scottish culture but I don't get to vote on Scottish independence. And I don't get to represent myself as an expert of Scottish history, culture or politics or assert rights to such.

Last edited by OLChemist; 09-16-2014 at 11:22 AM.. Reason: Repetitious redundancies.
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Old 09-16-2014, 09:44 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Time for a teachable moment, I hope. Please note, I am speaking to a larger issue here, rather than any specifics of your case.


Assertions of Native identity have political implications. Tribes aren't just collections of families with a shared culture; they are political entities with responsibilities to their citizens and formal established relationships with other Tribes and Nations. Every sovereign nation has established practices by which it marshals and distributes resources among its citizens, one of these is establishing standards of membership. Witness the ongoing flap about illegal immigration in the US.

Our Tribes' sovereignty has been under assault since 1492. In the US it is a strange and delicate thing. Membership is one of the areas where Tribes -- not the US government -- is in control. When groups or individual assert membership in Tribes, it is the equivalent of the tunnel under the border wall. Further, our tribes' political fate is too often in the hands of an electorate that often sees treaties, reservations, and tribal governments as a reproach upon the American ideals on individualism and egalitarianism. When they see the antics of a group of phenotypically non-Indian looking people practicing a mishmash of distorted, appropriated cultural practices and asserting a history with no documentary evidence, they are not infrequently moved to hostility against the Tribes. Look at the media coverage of Elizabeth Warren -- that was a veritable negative stereotype festival, which will have implications when voters and lawmakers decide issues regarding the relationship of states and the feds to the Tribes.

For this reasons, tribes and member of tribes are often so adamant in asserting these boundaries. This is like it or not why boundaries matter. It is why this is a touchy issue. It is not about phenotype. It is not about sharing the pie. It is about tribal sovereignty, pure and simple.

On this forum it is not uncommon for enrolled citizens of Tribes to be attacked precisely because they are enrolled. They will be compared to pedigreed animals, called sellouts or racists -- by people who claim to be part of their culture. People who should care about the political integrity of their Tribe.

It is a very different thing to to assert descendancy. That kind of link, properly asserted, does not attack tribal sovereignty.

Let me illustrate. I am 1/4 Scots. I know my clan and sept; I've been to visit the "Old Country" and meet the distant cousin or two. On Burns Day, I'll serve you some neebs and tatties and cranachan (forget the Haggis -- I think my ancestors left the old country to escape the puddlings made with oats and lungs, LOL). I am free to enjoy Scottish culture but I don't get to vote on Scottish independence. And I don't get to represent myself as an expert of Scottish history, culture or politics or assert rights to such.
Excellent points as always!
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Old 09-16-2014, 05:31 PM   #27
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Talking Year, names decent

hello
As for the year of which Noble was born I cannot in reality confirm this. I can only tell you he may have died around 1990, I say these things because I have not been able to confirm either piece of information with a death record or birth record and even in archive documents dates are not the same. As for name spelling and variations I sure do understand that issuse! I traced my fathers heritage back to the 1600's( got to love those English they are such great record keepers lol)
I do think some of the problem with my mothers family is I do know for SURE that she had to travel to KY and and her oldest living relative had to go also to sign a documents stating who she was who who parents were and when she was born, where and so on.. the place that had held her original birth certificate had burnt! (here I thought that was only in the movie lol) So there may have been records destroyed...like marriage and death certificates ..I was always taught when I was looking up heritage on my fathers side to never consider anything face until you saw the actual record. lol
I think I understand the other issues of heritage and politics that is why I think.. I used words like "she said" and "it was said" ? if I did not in certain areas I did mean to.. as for claiming..well its not that i want to claim anything other than the family ..:-)
Honestly I am what I call a "mutt" lol!! (my own warped sense of humor as I rescue animals) just from my fathers side.. I am English and German.. the German proof took a long time to figure out.. but once I did I was able to locate every document I needed in less than 24 hrs! I had been unable to locate my great grandparents anywhere it was like they did not exist..THEN changed the spelling and found they were JEWISH GERMAN and "wa la" found them. I hope everyone knows I came here not claiming "HEY I AM NATIVE damn it" but because Matty claimed to be Cherokee and because Noble was said to be Native also.
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Old 09-16-2014, 08:17 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken1 View Post
hello
As for the year of which Noble was born I cannot in reality confirm this. I can only tell you he may have died around 1990, I say these things becuse I have not been able to confirm either piece of information with a death record or birth record and even in archive documents dates are not the same. As for name spelling and variations I sure do understand that issuse! I traced my fathers heritage back to the 1600's( got to love those English they are such great record keepers lol)
I do think some of the problem with my mothers family is I do know for SURE that she had to travel to KY and and her oldest living relative had to go also to sign a documents stating who she was who who parents were and when she was born, where and so on.. the place that had held her original birth certificate had burnt! (here I thought that was only in the movie lol) So there may have been records destroyed...like marriage and death certificates ..I was always taught when I was looking up heritage on my fathers side to never consider anything face until you saw the actual record. lol
I think I understand the other issues of heritage and politics that is why I think.. I used words like "she said" and "it was said" ? if I did not in certain areas I did mean to.. as for claiming..well its not that i want to claim anything other than the family ..:-)
Honestly I am what I call a "mutt" lol!! (my own warped sense of humor as I rescue animals) just from my fathers side.. I am English and German.. the German proof took a long time to figure out.. but once I did I was able to locate every document I needed in less than 24 hrs! I had been unable to locate my great grandparents anywhere it was like they did not exist..THEN changed the spelling and found they were JEWISH GERMAN and "wa la" found them. I hope everyone knows I came here not claiming "HEY I AM NATIVE damn it" but because Matty claimed to be Cherokee and because Noble was said to be Native also.
Ok so the claim is that Mattie Byrd was Cherokee and Her daughter married a Fields who may have been Mohawk.
And Byrd is her maiden name? She may have been born in the 1900s in Kentucky. Her parents left there original area and moved into Kentucky.

Lets do an excersise in Genealogy:
When you dont know the birth or death date of a person you are looking for you go to the next generation untill you do know, then you can use predictive assumptions to determine age and birthdates. So in this case Mattie Byrd was born possibley in 1900-1920, so her mother's age at her birth would have been approx 15-25. So that means her Mother was born sometime between 1875 to 1900. This narrows down significantly the age of the person you are looking for in census records. Since the 1890 census was destroyed then you can move back to 1880 or forward to 1900. Census records are divided by enumeration districts so if you know what county they may have lived in you can narrow your search even more.

As for Native angle here, the fact that they are listed on Census records shows that they were not counted as Native for a very long time. I figure at least 3 or 4 generations before the birth of Mattie Byrd. Again using Predictive Assuptions the Cherokees that would have felt compelled to leave the original homeland would have done so in the 1830's so again assuming they were of marrying age the original group would have been in there 20' s or 30's then the next generation born in the 1850 and the next in the 1870 and on and so forth on up to Mattie Byrd.
Another clue here is the Guion Miller roll of 1907. It is a treasure trove of information in several ways one of the main fact is that it counted all Cherokees living in the east and the west with the exception
of the Old Settlers that were subject to the 1828 treaty its another subject.
My point is that it was a PAYMENT ROLL it paid to anyone that could trace to a decendant of any previous rolls mainly the 1851 or 1835 east of west. Over 200,000 people from as far away as Territory of Hawaii and the country of Poland applied to recieve the payment.
Only 43,000 were counted to have successfully proven to be a decendant. The index lists every body that filed a claim and whether or not it was allowed.
The claims were filed by each family member and would list each other on there claims even if one did not file. I just spent about an hour reading each claim file by any one listed by last name of Byrd 17 were listed none with name of Mattie there were two Marys one from Tenn and the other from Georgia both were rejected. But theynwere the only ones with a name close to Mattie. I then looked for any Byrd that was listed as Kentucky and none were found in this short list. Either she had a different last name or the Byrds from Kentucky did not feel the need to claim the money due to them from this court of claims.
I can not find a tie without more information
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:39 PM   #29
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Just as there is a possibility of her being part Native, there is always a possibility of her being no Native at all. You have to be open to all possibilities when conducting research.

Remember this part of your post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken1 View Post
I was always taught when I was looking up heritage on my fathers side to never consider anything face until you saw the actual record. lol
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:28 AM   #30
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I just spent about an hour reading each claim file ....

Wow. I believe some type of tangible thank you would be in order for the time Josiah has invested in this thread.


Just sayin
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Old 09-18-2014, 07:54 AM   #31
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Myrtle on a census

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken1 View Post
Also the limited information I do have of my grandmother and great grandmother even on gen. sites.. stops at Mattie Bird with no husband and I know she was married.. Also what little I found on Noble is her married Nola. lol. Did find out my grandmothers full name was Myrtle Nola Smith born March 1927 died 1997 and Noble born 1917 died 1990 but when I start looking past those the information gets inaccurate .. they are listed as having 12 children but I know that they had 16. :-( I just do not understand why the information just keeps stopping or gets mixed in with others of the similar or same names?

Marion Smith Head M 38 Kentucky
Mattie Smith Wife F 33 Kentucky
Willie Smith Son M 14 Kentucky
Myrtle N Smith Daughter F 12 Kentucky
Talbert Smith Son M 6 Kentucky
Manford Smith Son M 5 Kentucky
Rhoda S Smith Daughter F 2 Kentucky
Stanley Smith Son M 0 Kentucky

District: 26-10 , Family Number: 107 , Sheet Number and Letter: 7B , Line Number: 71 , Affiliate Publication Number: T627 , Affiliate Film Number: 1296 , Digital Folder Number: 005460602 , Image Number: 00405
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:02 AM   #32
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So if this is the Family then this would be the 1940 Census??

And should be able to go back to 1930 Census to find this family
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:45 PM   #33
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Kentucky Birth Index

Name:
Myrtle Smith



Date of Birth:
16 Mar 1928

Birth Place:
Clay, Kentucky, USA

Mother's name:
Mattie Byrd

Volume Number:
023

Certificate Number:
11049

Volume Year:
1928
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:47 PM   #34
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Springfield Illinois
Posts: 39
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1930 Census

Name:
Myrtle N Smith

Gender:
Female

Birth Year:
abt 1928

Birthplace:
Kentucky

Race:
White

Home in 1930:
Sextons Creek, Clay, Kentucky

Map of Home:
View Map


Marital Status:
Single

Relation to Head of House:
Daughter

Father's Name:
Marrie Smith

Father's Birthplace:
Kentucky

Mother's name:
Mattie Smith

Mother's Birthplace:
Kentucky


Occupation:

Education:

Military service:

Rent/home value:

Age at first marriage:

Parents' birthplace:



View image


Neighbors:
View others on page

Household Members:


Name

Age

Marrie Smith 28
Mattie Smith 22
William C Smith 4
[4 1/12]
Myrtle N Smith 2
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:05 PM   #35
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Springfield Illinois
Posts: 39
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1920 Census

Name:
Henry Fields

Age:
40
[49]

Birth Year:
abt 1880
[abt 1871]

Birthplace:
Kentucky

Home in 1920:
Sextons Creek, Clay, Kentucky

House Number:
Farm

Race:
White

Gender:
Male

Relation to Head of House:
Head

Marital Status:
Married

Spouse's Name:
Sarah Fields

Father's Birthplace:
Kentucky

Mother's Birthplace:
Kentucky

Occupation:
Farmer

Industry:
Home Fm

Employment Field:
Own Account

Neighbors:
View others on page

Household Members:


Name

Age

Henry Fields 40
[49]
Sarah Fields 39
Virgil Fields 15
Myrtle Fields 12
Lazzie Fields 10
Sopha Fields 8
Alee Fields 6
Noble Fields 3
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:15 PM   #36
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Seemed to have found the family
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:23 PM   #37
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More information on the Fields family.

Hi my name is Beth and I am addicted to Genealogy.

Here is the information I located for the family of Noble Fields:

Noble's parents

Henry Fields born abt 1880 died Sept 7 1952 in Kentucky.
Sarah Fields, maiden name Hall 1881-1969 in Kentucky.

Henry was married twice and had several children with each wife. Noble's mother is Sarah.

The other wife was Sally Sandifer 1880-1957.

The parents of Henry Fields:

John Toler Fields 1849-1936 born in Kentucky.
Elizabeth Thomas 1846-1880 born in Kentucky.

The parents of Sarah Hall:

Hezekia Carr Hall 1850-1934.
Eliza Harris 1948-1887.

This is the information I located on Ancestry.com. All the information may not be completely accurate however there were many many trees that confirmed the information for Noble's parents etc.
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:38 PM   #38
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More information

This page has arrows you can click to trace back the Fields family tree. It also helps source and confirm the information in my previous post.

Henry FIELDS, b: 1879 - Kentucky
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:39 PM   #39
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:54 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Costales View Post
Name:
Myrtle Smith

Date of Birth:
16 Mar 1928

Birth Place:
Clay, Kentucky, USA

Mother's name:
Mattie Byrd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Costales View Post
Name:
Myrtle N Smith

Gender:
Female

Birth Year:
abt 1928

Birthplace:
Kentucky

Race:
White

Home in 1930:
Sextons Creek, Clay, Kentucky

Father's Name:
Marrie Smith

Father's Birthplace:
Kentucky

Mother's name:
Mattie Smith

Mother's Birthplace:
Kentucky
Looks like the answer you been looking for has been found
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