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Old 09-19-2014, 07:26 AM   #41
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A few things about the Federal Census
The Indian Population was not counted on the Federal Census until 1900

When a Census taker went to the house of those they were Enumerating they would attempt to determine the Race.
In most cases it would be White or Negro.
It was very difficult for Natives to blend in or hide
For Land was counted in County Surveys as far back as 1789.
Actually the First President of these Untied States was a Land Surveyor and was very Familiar with the process. In all cases dealing with the Land and Natives a clear Title to the land had to be determined and then and only then would somebody receive title.

This is a picture that was taken in the mid 1920's by the Indian Commission tasked with to determine the status of the Native population after the Curtis Act was enacted and enforced.
It is difficult to believe that these people could be mistaken for anything other than what they are besides the fact they spoke only broken English...
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Old 09-19-2014, 12:41 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Broken1 View Post
Many years ago prior to my birth or right shortly after (1972) my father met my great grandmother whom people called Matty Byrd. He said he thought she had another name but he was unable to pronounce nor remember it..
My great grandmother spoke to my father in depth.. the story is as follows (not exact but an outline) Grandmother told my father that when she was a very small child (he claimed she was very old then white hair to her feet) that her "family" took her deep in the hills of KY to hide due to her people being forced upon what he figured was reservations. She said "forced from the land" and she told him that for 20 years they hid. no outsiders and to her knowledge no visitors outside of the family, she described her family as many so my father is guessing it was part of her tribe.

She claimed when they finally felt it was "safe" to leave that many stayed and that the ones who left only went as far as where she lived.. which was still what most call the "hollar".

She never allowed her picture to be taken, never left that area. her daughters name was Nola whom married a man by the name of Noble Fields whom my father said was claimed to be French Canadian and Mohawk.

I know nothing more but I have searched for several years and always come up with nothing other than a POSSIBLE death certificate.. since NO one in my family on my mothers side seems to know where great grandmother is buried nor her age nor anything other than her name! Can anyone help me?

or is there someone out there that might be aware of her? or this family or tribe?I have heard her family may have taken on the name Byrd from the branch of Cherokee they were, but again no idea if this is a possibility or not!

I truly just want to know more about her... and my heritage.. and if anyone knows anything about Noble Fields this too would be appreciated. Thank you so much
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Costales View Post
Name:
Myrtle Smith



Date of Birth:
16 Mar 1928

Birth Place:
Clay, Kentucky, USA

Mother's name:
Mattie Byrd

Volume Number:
023

Certificate Number:
11049

Volume Year:
1928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Costales View Post
Name:
Myrtle N Smith

Gender:
Female

Birth Year:
abt 1928

Birthplace:
Kentucky

Race:
White

Home in 1930:
Sextons Creek, Clay, Kentucky

Map of Home:
View Map


Marital Status:
Single

Relation to Head of House:
Daughter

Father's Name:
Marrie Smith

Father's Birthplace:
Kentucky

Mother's name:
Mattie Smith

Mother's Birthplace:
Kentucky


Occupation:

Education:

Military service:

Rent/home value:

Age at first marriage:

Parents' birthplace:



View image


Neighbors:
View others on page

Household Members:


Name

Age

Marrie Smith 28
Mattie Smith 22
William C Smith 4
[4 1/12]
Myrtle N Smith 2
So what happens to the original poster (OP) if this is true.

+Her family has an 'Indian hid in the hills' story. The Census records indicate the person is 'white', not Indian. The before and after family looks like a bunch of white people. (It's my belief that Indigenous people at that time still had features different than anglo features so the "I took my daddy's english side of the family looks' wasn't always true).

Do you concede you're 'white', or do you continue trying to prove you got Indian in you?

I'm just asking what a lot of other people are thinking.
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Old 09-19-2014, 12:43 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
A few things about the Federal Census
The Indian Population was not counted on the Federal Census until 1900

When a Census taker went to the house of those they were Enumerating they would attempt to determine the Race.
In most cases it would be White or Negro.
It was very difficult for Natives to blend in or hide
For Land was counted in County Surveys as far back as 1789.
Actually the First President of these Untied States was a Land Surveyor and was very Familiar with the process. In all cases dealing with the Land and Natives a clear Title to the land had to be determined and then and only then would somebody receive title.

This is a picture that was taken in the mid 1920's by the Indian Commission tasked with to determine the status of the Native population after the Curtis Act was enacted and enforced.
It is difficult to believe that these people could be mistaken for anything other than what they are besides the fact they spoke only broken English...
My Kinfolk



Backhills:

I'm just wondering what would happen to the pots and pans when a tornado would come by?

Good looking family, Josiah.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


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Old 09-19-2014, 07:55 PM   #44
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DNA test

If you are convinced that the family stories are true, you could have a DNA test done.
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Old 09-20-2014, 02:54 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
I'm just wondering what would happen to the pots and pans when a tornado would come by?

Good looking family, Josiah.
What!!!! You mean in Kentucky, there would have been tornado? I did not even know that. My father was born in Kentucky (Calhoun County) in 1913. I had never known there would be tornado there. Very interesting.
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Old 09-20-2014, 07:10 AM   #46
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What!!!! You mean in Kentucky, there would have been tornado? I did not even know that. My father wastborn in Kentucky (Calhoun County) in 1913. I had never known there would be tornado there. Very interesting.
No not Kentucky
The family in pictures decend from those that were part of the Trail of Tears that for them started in North Carolina and Georgia. They were on there allotment land when the picture was taken in what we estimate as 1928 near Lost City in Cherokee County Oklahoma.

I posted these pictures to demostrate that it would be very difficult to Natives to hide amongst whites they kind of stick out and that they tend to cluster together. In the second picture the elder sitting on the chair is Alex Hawkins born 1853 he is the grandfather of the woman sitting on the porch with her legs crossed. In the first picture is several generations of Cherokees and the old way of marriage in thefact that the husband comes to live with his wife's family the gentleman on the end to the right is Jess Drywater and son in law of George Coffee who is the far left gentleman
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Old 09-20-2014, 12:02 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
No not Kentucky
The family in pictures decend from those that were part of the Trail of Tears that for them started in North Carolina and Georgia. They were on there allotment land when the picture was taken in what we estimate as 1928 near Lost City in Cherokee County Oklahoma.
And of course we all know there are tornados in Oklahoma. Ahh Lost City, The little country school that went to eighth grade and then you either went to Hulbert or Tahlequah High school after that. I hurd Lost City schools closed down, I had a lot of good memories going to school there

I used to live in the farm house across from the Baptist church, lost city school was about 3 miles away. I went for a visit to that area about 7 years ago. Nobody ever mentions Lost City - so I had comment
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Old 09-20-2014, 09:29 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
No not Kentucky
The family in pictures decend from those that were part of the Trail of Tears that for them started in North Carolina and Georgia. They were on there allotment land when the picture was taken in what we estimate as 1928 near Lost City in Cherokee County Oklahoma.

I posted these pictures to demostrate that it would be very difficult to Natives to hide amongst whites they kind of stick out and that they tend to cluster together. In the second picture the elder sitting on the chair is Alex Hawkins born 1853 he is the grandfather of the woman sitting on the porch with her legs crossed. In the first picture is several generations of Cherokees and the old way of marriage in thefact that the husband comes to live with his wife's family the gentleman on the end to the right is Jess Drywater and son in law of George Coffee who is the far left gentleman
I am sorry for misunderstanding what you were just trying to explained about your family. I know that Oklahoma had tornadoes for many years. But I thought in the East coast don't seem to have them except to have hurricanes a lot. I understand now. Miigwetch (Thank you) for clearing this up. My, I am getting to be a little bit senile. I wish I was young again and have sharp mind and energy. Oh, well. I like the old pictures.
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Old 09-20-2014, 10:47 PM   #49
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And of course we all know there are tornados in Oklahoma. Ahh Lost City, The little country school that went to eighth grade and then you either went to Hulbert or Tahlequah High school after that. I hurd Lost City schools closed down, I had a lot of good memories going to school there

I used to live in the farm house across from the Baptist church, lost city school was about 3 miles away. I went for a visit to that area about 7 years ago. Nobody ever mentions Lost City - so I had comment
So your familiar with Swimmer Church and Cemetary on 14 mile creek... Thats where a large number of my kin are buried as are alot of those folks that are in these pics I posted.
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Old 09-21-2014, 12:02 AM   #50
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I really liked all the smaller schools in Cherokee and Adair counties. I went to school in Zion, Hulbert, Lost City, and Tahlequah. So many Indian kids too, we all joke about the light skinned Cherokees and there are indeed many of them, but having lived where I did, I knew so many dark skinned Cherokees and they knew their language/culture too. I enjoyed going to stomp dance at smiths/stokes and also during the labor day weekend when they had four days of dancing with the lead singers coming from their diff clans in rotation throughout the day and night. Since I was a guest of my Cherokee friends I got to dance too.
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Old 09-21-2014, 09:47 AM   #51
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I really liked all the smaller schools in Cherokee and Adair counties. I went to school in Zion, Hulbert, Lost City, and Tahlequah. So many Indian kids too, we all joke about the light skinned Cherokees and there are indeed many of them, but having lived where I did, I knew so many dark skinned Cherokees and they knew their language/culture too. I enjoyed going to stomp dance at smiths/stokes and also during the labor day weekend when they had four days of dancing with the lead singers coming from their diff clans in rotation throughout the day and night. Since I was a guest of my Cherokee friends I got to dance too.
I went to city schools in Tahlequah, Greenwood off and on and graduated from Tahlequah Senior High, but we moved back and forth between Arizona and New Mexico hell at one point I actually ate more mutton than kunnachi!!! Lol
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Old 09-25-2014, 10:35 PM   #52
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Thumbs up Try the Melungeons

You may find some results if you search for Melungeon ancestry. Melungeons are mixed blood people from Appalachia. I have seen the Byrd and Fields name connected to Melungeon families.
I have heard many people say that oral family history is unreliable, and I have had some pretty wild stories in my own family history, but to my surprise every one of those stories had the truth at the core of it with only minor details in error.
Also there were Cherokees that hid out and later became the Eastern Cherokee and there were others that hid out or left the Trail of Tears and eventually blended into the white population.
Being "forced from the land" does not necessarily mean the Trail of Tears. Individual families of non- white ancestry were often forced from their land by unscrupulous whites who had the money or power to do so.
If your family had the tradition of being Native American BEFORE the 60's and 70's when it became popular, you probably do have Native ancestry no matter how far back because before that, NO-ONE would have claimed Native ancestry as the only thing that would get them was pain and discrimination.
Keep looking and don't give up.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:37 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7armadillos View Post
You may find some results if you search for Melungeon ancestry. Melungeons are mixed blood people from Appalachia. I have seen the Byrd and Fields name connected to Melungeon families.
I have heard many people say that oral family history is unreliable, and I have had some pretty wild stories in my own family history, but to my surprise every one of those stories had the truth at the core of it with only minor details in error.
Also there were Cherokees that hid out and later became the Eastern Cherokee and there were others that hid out or left the Trail of Tears and eventually blended into the white population.
Being "forced from the land" does not necessarily mean the Trail of Tears. Individual families of non- white ancestry were often forced from their land by unscrupulous whites who had the money or power to do so.
If your family had the tradition of being Native American BEFORE the 60's and 70's when it became popular, you probably do have Native ancestry no matter how far back because before that, NO-ONE would have claimed Native ancestry as the only thing that would get them was pain and discrimination.
Keep looking and don't give up.
Actually, That is not completely true. Thousands upon thousands of whites attempted to claim Cherokee blood just read the 100000 rejected claims for compensation to the Miller Roll 1908. Tracing claims of whites today we find in a lot of cases they base there claim today on the fact that an ancestor signed up for the miller roll and was rejected. They now twist that fact around that they were rejected for political reasons! Evidence just does not support claims that anyone hid out, since all they had to do was stay in North Carolina and they weren't subject to the removal act. I addressed all of these myths in my first few posts in this thread I suggest you read it!
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:48 AM   #54
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One other point in all of this our three nations have some of the best Historians and Geneologists in the country for the very fact that at least a thousand people a day apply for citizenship to one of the three parts to the Cherokee Nation (Cherokee nation, United Keetoowah and Eastern band). We have kept records of our citizens for over 175 years not just rolls but marriages,council and many other documents and records that is also kept in the national archives. We never lived on a reservation we had our own government and we determined who was a citizen of our sovereign nation it has always been that way.
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Old 09-26-2014, 05:03 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Broken1 View Post
not a very good picture but one of the few rare pictures of my grandmother Nola daughter of Matty,
Based on skull shape alone you can tell she's mixed with some Native. No telling how close or far the pure-blooded ancestor is, but it's something. I was just reading about this last week on the differences between Native, European, and African skull shapes. The paper was put out by the Smithsonian, though I forget the title. Good luck with your search.
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Old 09-26-2014, 05:13 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Maize-Grower View Post
Based on skull shape alone you can tell she's mixed with some Native. No telling how close or far the pure-blooded ancestor is, but it's something. I was just reading about this last week on the differences between Native, European, and African skull shapes. The paper was put out by the Smithsonian, though I forget the title. Good luck with your search.
whoa......hold it there dude.......

you cant look at someones grainy picture and make a statement like that

what are your credentials and how many years do you have in the field?

thats just like the "i never burn and my aunt had dark hair and high cheekbones you can just TELL she is indian, i think probably cherokee" crowd
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Old 09-26-2014, 05:32 PM   #57
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whoa......hold it there dude.......

you cant look at someones grainy picture and make a statement like that

what are your credentials and how many years do you have in the field?

thats just like the "i never burn and my aunt had dark hair and high cheekbones you can just TELL she is indian, i think probably cherokee" crowd
I was looking at browline, width of face compared to height, the space between the nose and upper lip and whether it was concave or flat, shape of eye sockets, etc... You can look it up for yourself if you feel up for it. There's also the off-chance she could be Hungarian (Magyar people, from Central Asia originally, previously called "Huns"), but you'd have to admit an at least casual genetic relationship between Altaic peoples and Native Americans, and who wants to open that can of worms again?

I don't think she's Cherokee... If her mum was originally from Indiana (as mentioned in the census data above), could be Sauk and Fox or another tribe, but Cherokee would be extremely unlikely. That assumes the above census is or the correct person.
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:10 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Maize-Grower View Post
I was looking at browline, width of face compared to height, the space between the nose and upper lip and whether it was concave or flat, shape of eye sockets, etc... You can look it up for yourself if you feel up for it. There's also the off-chance she could be Hungarian (Magyar people, from Central Asia originally, previously called "Huns"), but you'd have to admit an at least casual genetic relationship between Altaic peoples and Native Americans, and who wants to open that can of worms again?

I don't think she's Cherokee... If her mum was originally from Indiana (as mentioned in the census data above), could be Sauk and Fox or another tribe, but Cherokee would be extremely unlikely. That assumes the above census is or the correct person.
i used cherokee as an example.....
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:43 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Maize-Grower View Post
I was looking at browline, width of face compared to height, the space between the nose and upper lip and whether it was concave or flat, shape of eye sockets, etc... You can look it up for yourself if you feel up for it. There's also the off-chance she could be Hungarian (Magyar people, from Central Asia originally, previously called "Huns"), but you'd have to admit an at least casual genetic relationship between Altaic peoples and Native Americans, and who wants to open that can of worms again?

I don't think she's Cherokee... If her mum was originally from Indiana (as mentioned in the census data above), could be Sauk and Fox or another tribe, but Cherokee would be extremely unlikely. That assumes the above census is or the correct person.
Your talking about Eugenics, and not surprising it is still being quoted and used that is a debunked pseudoscience from the 19th Century! Still not surprising considering most Americans still stick to the Bering Strait Theory also.

Nothing trumps primary documents tracing Lineal Discendancy starting from the subject and tracing back thru parents grandparents ect ect. If they are of any tribe somewhere in the past they would have been counted, if not them then there parents or grandparents and so forth. A group of Natives did not just disappear then reappear at a later date. We can trace back and forth movement of families and even individuals that decided on there own to leave Indian Territory and go back to North Carolina in the 1840's or even those that left North Carolina in the 1870's and lived in the Cherokee Nation and settled in an area north of present day Stillwell Oklahoma.
A very common misinformation is the very fact of what the Status of Cherokees in Indian Territory and it was simply this: The Cherokee Nation from 1839 to 1907 was a SOVEREIGN NATION. Able to pass laws, Enforce laws with Cherokee Marshals and Grant Citizenship to those that sought to reside in the Boundaries of the Cherokee Nation yes carefully read that last line they granted Citizenship to WHITES to reside within the boundaries that would include Doctors, Lawyers Blacksmiths ect ect ect.
It was not until the Intermarriage act Passed by the Cherokee Council in 1888 that this changed and what the Dawes Commission used to exclude Whites from gaining land in the Dawes Act.

Why would a Cherokee Decide to Hide out?? When all they had to do was travel to the Cherokee Nation where they would be recognized as a citizen and could farm any part of the Cherokee nation they chose to, and more importantly not living in fear of being found out??
Or simply go back to North Carolina to be with there relatives being understood and speak with them and live in the open???
Why does this MYTH persist to this day?? When Nothing ever supports it, we don't have lists of Families that suddenly Disappeared never to be heard from again. We knew each other, we still know each other we can meet and never know the person but thru conversation we can narrow down where there family comes from who they belong to we all do it! Its a Native thing it happens all over Ndn Country, I meet people that knew my Father or Grandparents and makes my heart proud that they knew them and speak well of them as in there day they would do the same thing its the way its been for a very long long time far in the past generation after generation!!

Nothing Trumps Documents
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:11 PM   #60
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Your talking about Eugenics, and not surprising it is still being quoted and used that is a debunked pseudoscience from the 19th Century! Still not surprising considering most Americans still stick to the Bering Strait Theory also.

Nothing trumps primary documents tracing Lineal Discendancy starting from the subject and tracing back thru parents grandparents ect ect. If they are of any tribe somewhere in the past they would have been counted, if not them then there parents or grandparents and so forth. A group of Natives did not just disappear then reappear at a later date. We can trace back and forth movement of families and even individuals that decided on there own to leave Indian Territory and go back to North Carolina in the 1840's or even those that left North Carolina in the 1870's and lived in the Cherokee Nation and settled in an area north of present day Stillwell Oklahoma.
A very common misinformation is the very fact of what the Status of Cherokees in Indian Territory and it was simply this: The Cherokee Nation from 1839 to 1907 was a SOVEREIGN NATION. Able to pass laws, Enforce laws with Cherokee Marshals and Grant Citizenship to those that sought to reside in the Boundaries of the Cherokee Nation yes carefully read that last line they granted Citizenship to WHITES to reside within the boundaries that would include Doctors, Lawyers Blacksmiths ect ect ect.
It was not until the Intermarriage act Passed by the Cherokee Council in 1888 that this changed and what the Dawes Commission used to exclude Whites from gaining land in the Dawes Act.

Why would a Cherokee Decide to Hide out?? When all they had to do was travel to the Cherokee Nation where they would be recognized as a citizen and could farm any part of the Cherokee nation they chose to, and more importantly not living in fear of being found out??
Or simply go back to North Carolina to be with there relatives being understood and speak with them and live in the open???
Why does this MYTH persist to this day?? When Nothing ever supports it, we don't have lists of Families that suddenly Disappeared never to be heard from again. We knew each other, we still know each other we can meet and never know the person but thru conversation we can narrow down where there family comes from who they belong to we all do it! Its a Native thing it happens all over Ndn Country, I meet people that knew my Father or Grandparents and makes my heart proud that they knew them and speak well of them as in there day they would do the same thing its the way its been for a very long long time far in the past generation after generation!!

Nothing Trumps Documents
Except high cheekbones!
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