[Joe's Dad]

Originally Posted by DeafElderWoman

I am sorry for misunderstanding what you were just trying to explained about your family. I know that Oklahoma had tornadoes for many years. But I thought in the East coast don't seem to have them except to have hurricanes a lot. I understand now. Miigwetch (Thank you) for clearing this up. My, I am getting to be a little bit senile. I wish I was young again and have sharp mind and energy. Oh, well. I like the old pictures.

I should have made it clearer...but I'm old like dat!

[milehighsalute]

Originally Posted by Josiah

I went to city schools in Tahlequah, Greenwood off and on and graduated from Tahlequah Senior High, but we moved back and forth between Arizona and New Mexico hell at one point I actually ate more mutton than kunnachi!!! Lol

dude i eat more kunnachi than your average injun


i am well known and respected here amongst white and chicana women because i am a poet when i talk or write..... have always been a cunning linguist.....i have a way with words

[milehighsalute]

i dont know many cherokee.....at least not many real ones that are actually indians

but the one thing i do know from the few i met, is that "hiding" is a very un-cherokee thing to do and its not likely that hoardes of tsalagi escaped to hide in the hills or whatever the twinkie fantasy is

i was told that the cherokee thing to do is stick alongside your family through better or worse. not likely that many cherokee abandoned their families being marched along the trail of tears

when will they ever learn????????

[Joe's Dad]

Originally Posted by milehighsalute

i dont know many cherokee.....at least not many real ones that are actually indians

but the one thing i do know from the few i met, is that "hiding" is a very un-cherokee thing to do and its not likely that hoardes of tsalagi escaped to hide in the hills or whatever the twinkie fantasy is

i was told that the cherokee thing to do is stick alongside your family through better or worse. not likely that many cherokee abandoned their families being marched along the trail of tears

when will they ever learn????????

I've had the pleasure of visiting Qualla Boundary. Been up through Big Cove. Met grandmothers there. First plume given to my son for dancing came from a guy from there. Will is still dancing. Not the first one I saw there had caucasion features. Looked straight up NDN.

[milehighsalute]

Originally Posted by Joe's Dad

I've had the pleasure of visiting Qualla Boundary. Been up through Big Cove. Met grandmothers there. First plume given to my son for dancing came from a guy from there. Will is still dancing. Not the first one I saw there had caucasion features. Looked straight up NDN.

i know theyre out there....... i just never been to cherokee country

[Josiah]

Originally Posted by milehighsalute

i know theyre out there....... i just never been to cherokee country

I have been to both Qualla Boundry and was born and raised in Eastern Oklahoma and it has been my experience that most "Cherokees" still reside within those areas to this day. The rest are decendants that moved but still have ties to those areas or have no ties whatsoever in generation after generation after generation of the individual in question...

[Joe's Dad]

Originally Posted by Josiah

I have been to both Qualla Boundry and was born and raised in Eastern Oklahoma and it has been my experience that most "Cherokees" still reside within those areas to this day. The rest are decendants that moved but still have ties to those areas or have no ties whatsoever in generation after generation after generation of the individual in question...

Hasn't been that long since they met for the first time since the walk. Somewhere in the 80's maybe?

[Josiah]

Originally Posted by Joe's Dad

Hasn't been that long since they met for the first time since the walk. Somewhere in the 80's maybe?

Yep 80's
The councils have actually got together also we live in interesting times. I am still sadden with the infighting amongst UKB and CN but then that has been going on since 1840. I have kin in both and it is hard to stay neutral...

[7armadillos]

Originally Posted by Josiah

Actually, That is not completely true. Thousands upon thousands of whites attempted to claim Cherokee blood just read the 100000 rejected claims for compensation to the Miller Roll 1908. Tracing claims of whites today we find in a lot of cases they base there claim today on the fact that an ancestor signed up for the miller roll and was rejected. They now twist that fact around that they were rejected for political reasons! Evidence just does not support claims that anyone hid out, since all they had to do was stay in North Carolina and they weren't subject to the removal act. I addressed all of these myths in my first few posts in this thread I suggest you read it!

WHERE are you getting the idea that "all they had to do was stay in North Carolina"??? Ridge ceded "ALL Lands east of the Mississippi" including North Carolina. The reason Qualla Boundary exists at all is because of those Cherokee that refused to go to Oklahoma and hid out in the hills. Qualla Boundary was formed LATER for those people and not all of them came in. They HAD to hide if they didn't want to go as the soldiers were rounding them up wherever they could find them and didn't care if they were Cherokee or not. Don't you know the history of Tsali? Also, over 30,000 were approved for the Miller roll out of over 125,000 applicants, so your figures are wrong as are your dates for the Miller Roll. As for your suggestion that I read your former post, I already did and that is why I felt I had to reply. Why do find it hard to believe that some applicants were rejected for political reasons? The less Cherokees were enrolled, the less money it cost the government. Since when has the government dealt fairly with us? It was in the governments best interest to reject applicants.

[subeeds]

Originally Posted by 7armadillos

WHERE are you getting the idea that "all they had to do was stay in North Carolina"??? Ridge ceded "ALL Lands east of the Mississippi" including North Carolina. The reason Qualla Boundary exists at all is because of those Cherokee that refused to go to Oklahoma and hid out in the hills. Qualla Boundary was formed LATER for those people and not all of them came in. They HAD to hide if they didn't want to go as the soldiers were rounding them up wherever they could find them and didn't care if they were Cherokee or not. Don't you know the history of Tsali? Also, over 30,000 were approved for the Miller roll out of over 125,000 applicants, so your figures are wrong as are your dates for the Miller Roll. As for your suggestion that I read your former post, I already did and that is why I felt I had to reply. Why do find it hard to believe that some applicants were rejected for political reasons? The less Cherokees were enrolled, the less money it cost the government. Since when has the government dealt fairly with us? It was in the governments best interest to reject applicants.

I think you need to check Josiah out and see who you are calling wrong. If you do, and decide to eat your words, I'm sure someone will be happy to find you some salt and pepper.

[milehighsalute]

Originally Posted by 7armadillos

WHERE are you getting the idea that "all they had to do was stay in North Carolina"??? Ridge ceded "ALL Lands east of the Mississippi" including North Carolina. The reason Qualla Boundary exists at all is because of those Cherokee that refused to go to Oklahoma and hid out in the hills. Qualla Boundary was formed LATER for those people and not all of them came in. They HAD to hide if they didn't want to go as the soldiers were rounding them up wherever they could find them and didn't care if they were Cherokee or not. Don't you know the history of Tsali? Also, over 30,000 were approved for the Miller roll out of over 125,000 applicants, so your figures are wrong as are your dates for the Miller Roll. As for your suggestion that I read your former post, I already did and that is why I felt I had to reply. Why do find it hard to believe that some applicants were rejected for political reasons? The less Cherokees were enrolled, the less money it cost the government. Since when has the government dealt fairly with us? It was in the governments best interest to reject applicants.

oh boy.....this is gonna be good

[Josiah]

Originally Posted by 7armadillos

WHERE are you getting the idea that "all they had to do was stay in North Carolina"??? Ridge ceded "ALL Lands east of the Mississippi" including North Carolina. The reason Qualla Boundary exists at all is because of those Cherokee that refused to go to Oklahoma and hid out in the hills. Qualla Boundary was formed LATER for those people and not all of them came in. They HAD to hide if they didn't want to go as the soldiers were rounding them up wherever they could find them and didn't care if they were Cherokee or not. Don't you know the history of Tsali?

(TSA-LA-GI) or more accurately ANIKITWUH
Eastern Band is where I get my information from actually Historians that work for the Eastern Band

Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians comprising of Descendants of those that resided at the time in North Carolina thru a provision called the Reservation Act of 1819 which excluded them from the Removal act of 1830 or by evading the United States Army in Tennessee and Georgia during the roundups prior to Forced Removal to Indian Territory in 1838-1839.
Those that remained behind could not hold property, which by law during this time Native Americans were neither citizens of the United States nor the State where they resided, therefore they could not own or have rights to property. An adopted Cherokee named Will Thomas bought land with money that Cherokees gave him in their behalf; he held the deeds in his name and allowed the Cherokees to live on and work the land. This ambiguous status continued until after the Civil War when the Cherokee question surfaced again. After several years of legal wrangling, the Cherokee formed a corporation. As a business, the Cherokee could hold the land and the land, which was to become known as the Qualla Boundary, again the land was in Cherokee control. Eastern Band was never subject to the Allotment act of 1889 and was able to fend off attempts to force compliance until the Howard Wheeler Act of 1936 abolished Allotment. Today they live in far western North Carolina in an area known as Qualla Boundary a Land Trust not a reservation the Tribe owns the land. Enrollment is granted to the applicant if they can prove a minimum Blood Quantum of 1/16th degree of Cherokee blood and Lineal Descendant of an Ancestor that is listed on the Baker Roll of 1924.
History & Culture | | Eastern Band of Cherokee

Also, over 30,000 were approved for the Miller roll out of over 125,000 applicants, so your figures are wrong as are your dates for the Miller Roll.

This Roll is a list of Cherokees that applied for compensation arising from the judgment of the United States Court of Claims on May 28, 1906 for the Eastern Cherokee Tribe. Approximately 146,000 people applied for compensation but not all were admitted. Basically this was a payment roll ($133.33 per person) for the Eastern Cherokee and their descendants that had been removed from the Southeast. It was not a citizenship roll as the Dawes Roll was. The Guion Miller Roll lists Cherokees in two broad categories: Cherokees residing East of the Mississippi and Cherokees residing West of the Mississippi. This compensation did not apply to those Cherokees that had left the East prior to 1835 and were covered by the Treaty of 1828, what we today call the Old Settlers. The Old Settlers received compensation in 1896 for loss of lands and other goods promised them by treaties of 1828 and 1832. The commission would take the application and determine if they could trace either the applicant or descendants of the applicant to either the Drennon, Chapman or Henderson Rolls. These three rolls were of Cherokee that resided in Indian Territory in 1851 (Drennon), Resided in Eastern Cherokee lands in 1849 (Chapman) or the Emigration Roll of those that were forcibly removed from the east in 1835-1838 (Henderson).

The thing is there is so much information written about the Cherokee by none Cherokees it makes your head swim/ Plus all the Fake tribes that are busy rewriting history so that they can insert them selves into it. The Problem with that is so much is written about the Cherokee that simple cross checking you discover what happened and more importantly you dicover the myths that sprung about regarding those that ran away or hid out! Why I ask would a Cherokee do that??
ANSWER THAT ONE... Why would a person that was raised all there life to protect our ways run away??

[7armadillos]

Originally Posted by subeeds

I think you need to check Josiah out and see who you are calling wrong. If you do, and decide to eat your words, I'm sure someone will be happy to find you some salt and pepper.

I know the difference between Tsa-La-Gi and Tsali, do you, Josiah?
I know about the things you mention. I have seen no evidence that the Reservation Act of 1819 would cause the military to exempt anyone from the removal even if it did make it illegal. Since when has that mattered? And any person raised to protect our ways might decide that included our land, as you know there was quite a bit of trouble over that issue. I do not say that anyone "ran away", just evaded the military round up. Again, what about Tsali? With suitable evidence I will gladly ask for salt, but not pepper as I am allergic.
By the way, Thank you for your Service.

[milehighsalute]

i predict a smack coming down

[Josiah]

I do a lot of traveling around and on occasion run across other travelers that share a common heritage. Funny how we always seem to ask the same kinds of questions.
Where are you from? Lost City
Who is your Grandparents?...
And with just those simple questions we can sometimes find a common ancestor or at the very least know of there family or at least heard of them.

Funny I could do the same thing when I spent sometime in Qualla Boundary I descend from Swimmers and Kingfishers and going back we found who had decided to go to the west and who decided to stay put.
Just casual conversations while we ate together and reconnected.

Funny its as simple as that, You are first part of a community and they have common language and culture and then the Big government gives them Federal Recognition! Ahhh the path to the easy life of Percaps, Free Healthcare and Free Education Glory be!!!
The Haves and the Havenots
Sad indeed.

I can type until my fingers bleed and NOTHING will Change your Mind nor the Thousands upon Thousand that I meet when I go into Arkansas or Missouri who have just as compelling argument about evasion and escape and reforming into communities. Funny thing is I know some Cherokees that did move into Arkansas and Missouri in the latter part of the 1800's not to escape or evade but to build farms and raise families and yet to this day they still have ties to us we know there families and they are recognized as citizens.

And the most patient man I have ever met is Ed Fields
Language instructor for Online classes
Patiently teaching Whites to sound like Cherokees


Fields huh?
Hmm Bunch?
Well yes...
Sam Fields??
Great Uncle...
My Great Grandpa...
Kin
LoL

[gilisi]

All of Tsali's family was accounted for, unless of course you are reading fiction.

[Josiah]

Originally Posted by 7armadillos

I know the difference between Tsa-La-Gi and Tsali, do you, Josiah?

I had to take some time to address this question I was bit rushed this morning and avoided on purpose from Answering it.

Cha-Li or Old Charlie is a sad story indeed and curious why you would bring up such a story?? For no matter how its told and I am told it is even included in the Production of Unto these Hills!! It brings up a very ticklish situation, kind of the "Turd in the Punch Bowl moment" and everybody trying there best to ignore.

There are some of my kin that would say that the story truly addresses the fact that the "core 200" that now make up the Eastern Band showed there true colors during that time and would do anything including hunting down and shooting there own Kinsmen to remain behind! It shows that they are truly just remnants of our old culture and by then were baptized brown people who now cash in on Chiefing and Tourist Trade. Like I said some of my Kin...

We Cherokees have fought each other for a very long time. Thin bloods Full bloods half breeds. Even during the Civil War our 1st Cherokee Regiment attacked and chased Creeks across Indian Territory. Those Full bloods that refused became the 2nd Home Guard and moved up into Kansas until after the war.

So Why did you bring this up I am curious??
I answered your Question...
You have obviously looked at my profile and yes that is my English name. You have looked at pictures and yes I Powwow, Yes I served Honorable in the US Navy and yes I am very proud of my Granddaughter "she brings Joy to our Life".

But you are a mystery man one that likes to sit in the shadows and bring up hurtful history and Zingers???
Step into the open it will be alright...

[7armadillos]

The reason I mention Tsali is because some of his family IN NORTH CAROLINA during the removal was killed by the soldiers. Tsali's relatives that hadn't been killed were absorbed by the Eastern Band Cherokee and thus EVADED the Trail.
When you say that "some of my kin" would say things highly insulting to Eastern Cherokee, well, "Some of MY kin" would say, why are yours so insulting and is this some more of the Oklahoma Cherokee conceit that they alone are the true representatives of all Cherokee people?
I thought that this was going to be an intelligent discussion of the facts surrounding the removal and the trail. This has become not a discussion but an insult-fest. By the way, I am not a man and if I was prone to sit in the shadows I would not have posted here. Past history is past history, only you can choose if you want it to hurt you or not.
End of discussion as there is no point in what it has become.

[Grits & Beans]

Originally Posted by 7armadillos

I thought that this was going to be an intelligent discussion of the facts surrounding the removal and the trail.

And Josiah provided both intelligent discussion and facts.

Originally Posted by 7armadillos

I guess I was wrong.

So now would be a good time to eat your words, lick your fingers too...

[Josiah]

Originally Posted by 7armadillos

The reason I mention Tsali is because some of his family IN NORTH CAROLINA during the removal was killed by the soldiers. Tsali's family that hadn't been killed was absorbed by the Eastern Band Cherokee and thus EVADED the Trail.
When you say that "some of my kin" would say things highly insulting to Eastern Cherokee, well, "Some of MY kin" would say, why are yours so insulting and is this some more of the Oklahoma Cherokee conceit that they alone are the true representatives of all Cherokee people?
I thought that this was going to be an intelligent discussion of the facts surrounding the removal and the trail. I guess I was wrong as this has become not a discussion but an insult-fest. By the way, I am not a man and if I was prone to sit in the shadows I would not have posted here. Past history is past history, only you can choose if you want it to hurt you or not.
End of discussion as there is no point in what it has become.

Interesting...
1. They did not survive.
2. More importantly, Why would they stay with the very people that just killed Tsali and sons?
3. I wrote the fact that ALL three have been fighting and insulting each other for 175 years by saying oklahoma cherokees demostrates your lack of knowledge of the Anikituwah peoples or what is known as old settlers
4. You yourself added information to this discussion that had no bearing on the discussion by your previous posts that I dont know what I am talking about.
5. I answered in kind
6. This is not my first discussion about this subject
7. Documents and not myths and legends always hold up to scrutiny
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