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Old 07-20-2010, 06:21 PM   #1
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First to be born off of Land Trust

Greetings..this is my first post.

My question is this...my ancestors (paternal side) have been in the Cherokee Nation since before the Dawes Registration. My father left when he was 15 years of age. Most, but not all of my ancestors lived and have died near Tahlequah, OK. All of those ancestors had both Cherokee and Irish blood to varying extent. One of my great-grand mothers was born in Georgia and registered as a Creek in OK. I do have a total of 3 ancestors who are registered on the Dawes Roll. How does one determine their "blood" relationship/percentage/quantum with a certain tribe regardless of the mix and does it truly matter as long as you live with the "spirit" in your heart.

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Old 07-20-2010, 06:28 PM   #2
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
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Old 07-21-2010, 02:39 PM   #3
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@ Joe's Dad!!!!


Is all about fractions dude. 1/2 1/4 1/8 1/16 1/32 1/64 1/112........beyond? ummm....
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Old 07-21-2010, 02:41 PM   #4
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Oh and .... .what does being born off or on trust land have to do with this????

Just wondering....
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Old 07-21-2010, 03:11 PM   #5
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1/112 ? Ok, I have to ask... Which biology book were those ancestors using? The one from the little green men in Roswell?
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Old 07-21-2010, 04:16 PM   #6
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Well 1/112th sounds more honest than 10% LOLOL

Oops, threadjacking alert!


Well, is wa-ti wa-hya looking for a CDIB card? or tribal enrollment? or?

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Old 07-21-2010, 05:20 PM   #7
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Amigo...sort of/maybe. I have very recently found my father after many many years. He has told me that I should enroll with the Cherokee Nation. On one hand, having found out my NDN bloodline and ancestors on the Dawes Roll gives me membership...my conscience questions whether or not should do so because I have not lived as nor was I raised with any knowledge of that heritage. I have always in my heart lived the good life, have spent a lifetime teaching woodcraft and survival skills, respected our earth, (all of which has always seemed natural for me). On the other hand...should one join because he can and then attempt to live up to certain expectations. I have stepped into an arena of which I have very little knowledge. Oh yea..why do some tribal memberships require certain "blood" quantums and not others.

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Old 07-21-2010, 05:50 PM   #8
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Tribal enrollment -- really citizenship -- is a political identity as well as cultural. Tribal governments provide services for their citizens and like all governments have to live within their means.

Tribes have a unique government to government relationship with the federal government. This confers certain special rights and responsibilities upon a tribes members. Because these may run counter to laws restricting the rights of non-Indians -- i.e. feathers or hunting and fishing rights -- there has to be a means for the tribe to identify its members to the larger government. Historically, this came to be based on 18th century, Euro-American eugenic principles of race. Hence blood quantum. For most tribes this ran counter to kinship and culture based standards of membership.

Each tribe has the right to determine its own membership criterion. Most use some level of blood quantum. Several have residency requirements as well. Some require matrilineal descent. Rules can and do change, with changing political and economic conditions.

If you have to ask about whether you belong, them I suggest you ask what you expect to get from a card. Paper does not an Indian make. Community and family participation and acknowledgement is key to Indian identity. In my opinion, if you need a card to tell people who you are, then you are not adequately enculturated to consider taking on the responsibilities of tribal citizenship.

Being an unenrolled Indian descendent is not a terrible thing to be. You can still learn and eventually participate in Native community life.

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Old 07-21-2010, 06:18 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by ta-wa wa-hya View Post
Amigo...sort of/maybe. I have very recently found my father after many many years. He has told me that I should enroll with the Cherokee Nation. On one hand, having found out my NDN bloodline and ancestors on the Dawes Roll gives me membership...my conscience questions whether or not should do so because I have not lived as nor was I raised with any knowledge of that heritage. I have always in my heart lived the good life, have spent a lifetime teaching woodcraft and survival skills, respected our earth, (all of which has always seemed natural for me). On the other hand...should one join because he can and then attempt to live up to certain expectations. I have stepped into an arena of which I have very little knowledge. Oh yea..why do some tribal memberships require certain "blood" quantums and not others.

Respectfully

Well, Mr. __ -__ Wolf, keep reading around here, plenty of answers and suggestions will surely follow your posts (yikes). By the way, what breed is the dog in your avatar pic? Not sure if that is your K9 partner....


Respectfully, from an innocent bystander non-NDN,

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Old 07-22-2010, 01:37 PM   #10
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OLChemist...Thank you for your informative and thoughtful response. My research has led me to the same insight that you describe here as far as the political/cultural identities. I agree with you regarding the "card" not making the person. I can understand the tribal requirement of residency, but, find it difficult to understand the "blood quantum" issue when there are many other factors involved such full blooded ancestors who did not trust the US and thus decided not to register or live on land trust/rez. All points aside..things are as they are. In addition...speaking for myself, I believe that one should live with the Indian sense of community and family as you stated, but, also believe that documenting tribal membership so that that our decendants may be reminded of thier ancestral heritage and attempt to respect and honor those before them...Thank You for this site...a helpful tool indeed.

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Old 07-22-2010, 01:44 PM   #11
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AmigoKumeyaay, yes this site has already proven to be useful....especially for someone who doesn't have any NDN associations/contacts/friends. It is helpful to "bounce" ideas and issues off of people with like interest. Oh yea...that's my partner showing off for the camera!

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Old 07-22-2010, 03:10 PM   #12
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I can understand the tribal requirement of residency, but, find it difficult to understand the "blood quantum" issue when there are many other factors involved such full blooded ancestors who did not trust the US and thus decided not to register or live on land trust/rez.
First a bit of friendly advice: Don't lead off with this. Most of us have heard a few too many times about the "raven haired, high cheek-boned full-blood medicine woman grandma" who didn't register because "she didn't need no papers like a show-dog." We tend to be a bit jaded, so even when the story is true it is poorly received. So best keep that bit of family history to yourself until you really get to know people.

The use of blood quantum for determining Indian is hotly debated. You will find people on all sides of the argument. And some like me who come down in the middle because, I haven't figured out a fraud resistant cultural standard. Nor a cultural standard which doesn't pose a real and present danger to our ability as people to change to meet the needs of changing times. So for now, I defend those who use it for the following reasons:

Ignoring the metaphysical for the moment, the degree of blood quantum tends to correlate with degree of enculturation. Culture is contagious, you catch it from your kin. The more people who model Native mores in your environment, the more you are likely to exhibit the same characteristics.

Genetics determines phenotype. In the dominant culture phenotype has profound consequences with regard to relating to the institutions -- both those with a capital letter and those without -- of power within this society. We who can "pass" too often overlook the effects of deviating from the "white" norm, suffered by those who cannot pass. They bear a disproportionate burden of the negative aspects of being a Native person.

Finally, the bureaucratic mechanisms of the dominant culture are proficient at recording births, deaths, and marriages and generating official documents of such. And they understand and accept these things as significant links in ancestral chain. It gives us some common framework for formulating membership.


On another matter, often in these discussions people keep talking about being proud to have an Indian ancestor. How can one be proud of one's heritage? (Not to be confused with not being ashamed of one's culture.) Was there anything one could do to earn it? I can be proud of the program I wrote today, or kinetics studies I've done, or the dresses I've beaded... Sorry, just don't get it. You are what you are. Best to make the best of it.
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Old 07-22-2010, 06:00 PM   #13
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OLChemist...Good advice, but the high-cheekbone, great-grand mother stuff was not intended...I was using that as an example of what I see as a way for the govt to alienate an untold number of Native Americans who would be otherwise elgible for membership within their respective tribe(s).
I somewhat agree with your "cultural is contagious" comment. As we so many times these days hear that we are a "product of our environment" but that is also influenced by the choices we make. I also believe to a certain extent that genetics plays a part...but...I am by no means an expert in this field...I just see many simularities between myself and recently aquainted relatives who have lived and grown in a world apart, unknown to each other and yet demostrate many, many like habits, reactions, and beliefs.
Regarding the discussion of being proud of one's ancestry....if we do not remember where we came from...neither will anyone else. It is our responsibility to pass these things down to our children, etc. Too many times these days...people want to rewrite other peoples history to suit their respective desires and intents, for whatever reasons. I believe you can and should be proud of your ancestry...taking the good with the bad...just as I would hope that my descendants would respect me for being the best person that I could have been.

Thank you for your insight...and advice.

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Old 07-22-2010, 08:51 PM   #14
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AmigoKumeyaay, yes this site has already proven to be useful....especially for someone who doesn't have any NDN associations/contacts/friends. It is helpful to "bounce" ideas and issues off of people with like interest. Oh yea...that's my partner showing off for the camera!

Respectfully
What "bounced" off me is you mentioned you recently "found" your father, and he told you to enroll with "the Cherokee"? Do you still have contact with your father?

Are you with the U.S. military, an MP?

Have you checked through the Powwow Calendar for Maryland powwows coming up?

Red beads are piling up on you, not from me by the way.....wa-ti? brown or dark?






enquiring minds.........wanna know.......hmmm
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:48 AM   #15
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Amigo...I was an engineer..retired. Planning to attend Howard Co. with my grand children this weekend...
Regarding the red beads...I thought that I had opened a thread in the Ancestry/Genealogy forum. My intent is not to tick folks off but to further my knowledge of Native American ancestry. No polictics, religion or confrontations intended...strickly searching for answers to questions from people with experience and knowledge in this area...no offense intended...

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Old 07-23-2010, 12:01 PM   #16
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Right On wa ti wa hya, your grandkids will always remember you taking them. OLChemist put out some great posts for you. If you qualify to enroll, why not? Be an asset to the Nation however you can, be good to all people whereever.

I made friends with a Korean War Vet at karaoke, 81 years young and he sings Don Williams songs mostly. As we got to know each other, turns out he is 50/50 Irish/Cherokee, his mom was from Talequah, but he was raised urban in Chicago, did not have contact with rest of his Cherokee family, did not have that upbringing, but he is a great guy, respectful, a gentleman.

I invited him to his very first powwow here in San Diego. He sat there with a big smile on his face, said it was first time ever near the drums. So, it's never too late! That's all 'm gonna say here, Peace!

Last edited by AmigoKumeyaay; 07-23-2010 at 12:03 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 07-24-2010, 09:22 PM   #17
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To be eligible for CDIB/Tribal Citizenship with the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, you must be able to provide documents that connect you to an enrolled lineal ancestor, who is listed on the (DAWES ROLL) FINAL ROLLS OF CITIZENS AND FREEDMEN OF THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES, Cherokee Nation with a blood degree. This roll was taken between 1899-1906 of Citizens and Freedmen residing in Indian Territory (now NE Oklahoma).

Many applicants do not qualify for CDIB/Citizenship as their ancestors did not meet the enrollment requirements and were not enrolled. Certain requirements had to be met in order to be placed on the Dawes Roll.
1) They must have physically lived within the boundries of the Cherokee Nation as defined prior to 1907.

2) Must still be living at time of Dawes Commission (Some died at time of enrollment and were stricken from the rolls)

3) Must have Cherokee Citizenship this was proven by being counted on previous census usually 1896 and/or 1880 both done by the Cherokee Nation.

Myths: Some refused to enroll and "hid" out in Missouri or Arkansas. If you were a citizen of the Cherokee Nation and had been on a previous "Census" and were still living you were enrolled no ifs,and, or buts about it. The commission was very aware of the Nights of Keetoowah and Pins Soceities they were enrolled like everybody else...

As for blood Quantum the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma does not require a Minimum for enrolled as a Citizen of the Cherokee Nation nor do you have to physically live within the boundries of the Cherokee Nation
Fairly simple process
Provide a birth certificate for yourself and Mother or Father that are related to the person on the Roll must show that you are Lineal Descendant to that Ancestor Aunt or Uncle will not do must be Grand Parents or Great Grandparents

here is the documents Good Luck:
http://www.cherokee.org/docs/Registr...structions.pdf

http://www.cherokee.org/docs/registr...gistration.pdf
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Old 07-24-2010, 10:23 PM   #18
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Thanks for that post Josiah
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Old 07-26-2010, 01:25 PM   #19
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Josiah...Thank you for the post...I am forwarding the links to my brothers and our father. Thank You
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