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Old 01-17-2012, 01:01 AM   #81
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There is definitely racism, and so much people don't even realize it when its going on sometimes. my friends used to ask me whether we were Mexicans all the time, like my aunts and uncles when they visited, and we don't even know what nation grandma was from, she's a total different color than her family! The family she lived with bootlegged, worked on steamboats for generations, and ran taverns. I don't even know how she came to be with them, but that she suffered bad abuse she would not talk about it.

Girls can be just taken by people and married off or whatever, back just a few generations. When my mom told her boyfriend, who's a jerk and slovakian, that I took after and spent lots of time as a child with the "Indian" part of the family, he started criticizing me and prefacing it with "you can tell she's an Indian..." I no longer speak to him. I went to Missouri and heard all kinds of bad things and bad names I hadn't heard since I was out west. I couldnt believe what people were like out west. A bunch of cowboy dorks.

I identify with this part of my family because I was very close to them and treated badly by my own family and only had love and peace with them. My mom doesnt care a bit about her Indian blood, she thinks she's too high class even for her own family, but my grandpa loved me alot. Her father and my grandma taught me alot of basic things as a very young child and I would say did more to raise me than my own folks. I think this has something to do with how you see yourself when you are mixed. My aunt says my sister and mom are so pink, they are, I was a throwback. My grandparents are always with me (they have passed on) but my other relatives I do not have the same feeling. I think I would cry every day if I did not have them with me.

We couldn't see grandma pray, we left her tobacco. We couldn't know how to pray, not the words, but my aunt showed me how grandma waved tobacco up into the air and how she burned it when we were little kids. We had to keep it a secret. If my born again Christian family found out, or the rest of the Christian neighbors, Social Services probably would have taken us away. she had no community to support her.
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:48 AM   #82
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Genealogy is not a laughing matter
Tracing your Ancestry is not a Laughing matter
This is serious business!
Having said that you must keep an open mind
Not all us descend from Famous Folks
Jesse James must have a Million Descendants but when you actually trace that is not so.

I got interested into doing this research about 7 years ago and along the way have met other people that have the same interest. I consider my self a thorough researcher because that is what it takes. You can't have a preconceived idea that you are going to find something sensational. I have traced my Paternal side and Maternal side.

Ok now we will talk about NDN ancestry
Specifically Cherokee there are Three Federally Recognized Tribes Two in Oklahoma and one in North Carolina
First Oklahoma:
Cherokee Nation and United Keetoowahs use the same roll the famous Dawes Roll of 1907. This is a listing of Cherokees that lived in Indian Territory as of the taking of the roll 1896 to 1907. Some popular misconception's about this roll
1) It was not Voluntary!
2) It is incomplete because people hid out in Arkansas to keep from signing up
3) People were arrested but they escaped and refused to sign up

The Dawes commission was assembled and traveled throughout the Indian Territory enrolling the different tribes. In our case they had the Records of the Cherokee Nation specifically The 1896 payment Roll the 1880 Citizenship rolls both done by the Cherokee Nation Themselves. So they already had a pretty clear picture of who was Cherokee and living in Indian Territory. Over 100,000 people showed up to enroll (HMMM) but only 40,000 were in fact enrolled. When you came to the commission they had a Commissioner,Interpreter a Scribe and a Representative from the Cherokee Nation usually WW Hastings. You sat down and they asked you questions who are you what are your parents etc etc. If you read through the Dawes packets it has a wealth of information. A snapshot of who a person was at the turn of the century. Notes would be written down this person was indeed found on previous rolls yes they had lived within the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation and No they had not left. Parents and Grandparents would be written down if they spoke English and what was there post office. A person would be used as a reference that would attest that they lived where they said they did and how long they knew them. Fairly extensive process to enroll a Family, in the case of my Grandma on my Father's side she was Born Nov 11 1907. So she was not enrolled but a too late. So her Parent's roll number was used so we go back another Generation to Josiah and Evabelle Hawkins roll number 18404 and 18405. Looking up their Dawes Packet you find something that dispels several myths about the Dawes Rolls. Josiah and Evabelle were not present at the time they were signed up by Mother in Law Sarah Swimmer!!
She testified that she was enrolling her daughter because she was sick and feeble at the time. They asked about Josiah (by Name) and she said he would not be coming in because he refused to enroll. They asked if he was Keetoowah she said yes... They enrolled both my Great Grandparents without them actually being present. They wrote down the fact that both were found on previous rolls and that they had both lived and were alive in the Cherokee Nation they wrote down the name of there Children as of that date and they were assigned Roll Numbers and Received 160 acres plus 40 for Homestead case closed NEXT...

Redbird Smith also refused to enroll and was traveling all over Indian Territory making speeches to keep people from enrolling
He was arrested in Muskogee and was enrolled along with his whole family and others.

This information is found in many places on the Internet and in the National Archives. The LDS have librarys all over the country that is open to the public and anyone can use for the most are free but if they have to send off for microfilm it ia a nominal fee.

If its there, you will find it, you do not need to go back hundreds of years but to 1900 Grandparents or even Great Grandparents age
I found my Great Great Granparents on the roll also plus Great Aunts, Uncles lots and lots of people you just have to look.

Last edited by Josiah; 01-17-2012 at 10:26 AM.. Reason: minor corrections
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:58 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Genealogy is not a laughing matter
Tracing your Ancestry is not a Laughing matter
This is serious business!
Having said that you must keep an open mind
Not all us descend from Famous Folks
Jesse James must have a Million Descendants but when you actually trace that is not so.

I got interested into doing this research about 7 years ago and along the way have met other people that have the same interest. I consider my self a thorough researcher because that is what it takes. You can't have a preconceived idea that you are going to find something sensational. I have traced my Paternal side and Maternal side.

Ok now we will talk about NDN ancestry
Specifically Cherokee there are Three Federally Recognized Tribes Two in Oklahoma and one in North Carolina
First Oklahoma:
Cherokee Nation and United Keetoowahs use the same roll the famous Dawes Roll of 1907. This is a listing of Cherokees that lived in Indian Territory as of the taking of the roll 1896 to 1907. Some popular misconception's about this roll
1) It was not Voluntary!
2) It is incomplete because people hid out in Arkansas to keep from signing up
3) People were arrested but they escaped and refused to sign up

The Dawes commission was assembled and traveled throughout the Indian Territory enrolling the different tribes. In our case they had the Records of the Cherokee Nation specifically The 1896 payment Roll the 1880 Citizenship rolls both done by the Cherokee Nation Themselves. So they already had a pretty clear picture of who was Cherokee and living in Indian Territory. Over 100,000 people showed up to enroll (HMMM) but only 40,000 were in fact enrolled. When you came to the commission they had a Commissioner,Interpreter a Scribe and a Representative from the Cherokee Nation usually WW Hastings. You sat down and they asked you questions who are you what are your parents etc etc. If you read through the Dawes packets it has a wealth of information. A snapshot of who a person was at the turn of the century. Notes would be written down this person was indeed found on previous rolls yes they had lived within the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation and No they had not left. Parents and Grandparents would be written down if they spoke English and what was there post office. A person would be used as a reference that would attest that they lived where they said they did and how long they knew them. Fairly extensive process to enroll a Family, in the case of my Grandma on my Father's side she was Born Nov 11 1907. So she was not enrolled but a too late. So her Parent's roll number was used so we go back another Generation to Josiah and Evabelle Hawkins roll number 18204 and 18205. Looking up their Dawes Packet you find something that dispels several myths about the Dawes Rolls. Josiah and Evabelle were not present at the time they were signed up by Mother in Law Sarah Swimmer!!
She testified that she was enrolling her daughter because she was sick and feeble at the time. They asked about Josiah (by Name) and she said he would not be coming in because he refused to enroll. They asked if he was Keetoowah she said yes... They enrolled both my Great Grandparents without them actually being present. They wrote down the fact that both were found on previous rolls and that they had both lived and were alive in the Cherokee Nation they wrote down the name of there Children as of that date and they were assigned Roll Numbers and Received 160 acres plus 40 for Homestead case closed NEXT...

Redbird Smith also refused to enroll and was traveling all over Indian Territory making speeches to keep people from enrolling
He was arrested in Muskogee and was enrolled along with his whole family and others.

This information is found in many places on the Internet and in the National Archives. The LDS have librarys all over the country that is open to the public and anyone can use for the most are free but if they have to send off for microfilm it ia a nominal fee.

If its there, you will find it, you do not need to go back hundreds of years but to 1900 Grandparents or even Great Grandparents age
I found my Great Great Granparents on the roll also plus Great Aunts, Uncles lots and lots of people you just have to look.
At the risk of starting up yet ANOTHER "discussion", Isn't this the point that we've all been trying to make? Where as one person who has little to no blood quantum, but lives within the community and is active within the community, could and would be considered Native. But in cases like this, (assuming the poster is NOT in a Native community, this is where, (I believe) blood quantum is important. Because here we have AGAIN, a 3G grandma or grandpa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by docgary View Post
With that I mind, I dug some more and found an ancestor, but it only makes me 1/32nd blood and one generation down from qualifying in the Eastern Band of Cherokee. So great, I can have the defects and weaknesses but not the CDIB card! Perfect!
@Josiah haven't you, on several occasion, stated qualifications of Cherokee enrollment is 1/4 blood quantum and lineage? And that all the same rules and regulations apply throughout all 3 tribes?

Adding to what comadre said, Mr. docgary, if I were you, I think I would be content with the defects and weaknesses and forget the CDIB card, that makes an NDN NOT!, that merely shows blood quantum, it does NOT make you a bonafide NDN. What does however make one an NDN is all the crap that comes with it. The parts that NewAgers and wannabes LOVE to over look. It's the stuff like, of the 10 childhood friends that you grew up with and were close to through school, 5 are dead, 2 are in prison, and 3 are still drinking and drugging and eventually to either the morge or prison, whichever comes first. May not be an issues so much here in the valley of Arizona, but up north and on reservations all over the US, but finding elders, children babies, grandmas and grandpas, auntie's and uncles sisters and brothers mothers and fathers, frozen to death because there is not sufficient enough heat, or because the power company took the meter, during the time of year that it is illegal to do, even when there are people in the home who have medical issues, http://www.powwows.com/gathering/showthread.php?t=57791 here a link to see for yourself. It also includes devastatingly aggressive alcoholism, domestic violence, murder rates higher than the national average, incest, rape. Too many times folks watch Dances with Wolves or Last of the Mohicans and believe the Hollywood romance of Native life. You really want to know what Native life is like watch this movie, it's called Mile Post 398. You can only buy it online, but you can watch the trailer here



All I'm saying is it's not a lucrative life to be Native, it comes with more hardships than romance, That's all I'm saying
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Old 01-17-2012, 11:29 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigheaded View Post



@Josiah haven't you, on several occasion, stated qualifications of Cherokee enrollment is 1/4 blood quantum and lineage? And that all the same rules and regulations apply throughout all 3 tribes?
Actually all three tribes have different criteria in there Requirements

Cherokee Nation: Trace to a Lineal Descendant on the Dawes Rolls no minimum Blood Quantum.

United Keetoowahs Band: Trace to a Lineal Descendant on the Dawes Roll must be at least 1/4 degree and approved by the Tribal Council

Eastern Cherokee: Trace to a Lineal Descendant on the Baker Roll of 1924 minimum 1/8th degree and approved by the Council.
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Old 01-17-2012, 11:42 AM   #85
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Actually all three tribes have different criteria in there Requirements

Cherokee Nation: Trace to a Lineal Descendant on the Dawes Rolls no minimum Blood Quantum.

United Keetoowahs Band: Trace to a Lineal Descendant on the Dawes Roll must be at least 1/4 degree and approved by the Tribal Council

Eastern Cherokee: Trace to a Lineal Descendant on the Baker Roll of 1924 minimum 1/8th degree and approved by the Council.
OK, so instead of 1 generation out he claimed, he's still actually 3 instead of 5 if quantum was 1/4 for Eastern. Thanks

Last edited by pigheaded; 01-17-2012 at 11:45 AM..
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:04 PM   #86
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i knew little on this subject, now i know more. with all that has been said i still am tired of people who want to become indian because they found out that 3 or 4 generations ago they are linked with one. they love the romance of it as was stated earlier. i had someone on this site joke that they thought i was kidding because i said i like the cobbler style jingle. lol they sent me a pm saying they were sorry that they thought i was joking because the cobbler had not been in fashion for some time. lol. what ever.
with this, i surely do not want to discourage the true seeker. i welcome anyone who is native by heart, so to speak. not very eloquent this morning, having one of those mornings.....
blah.
so thank you Josiah for once again posting some knowledge and to pigheaded for posting the truth as well. i agree with you both. lol now i am off to take a nap as i have been up since five and had a full day already as you can tell by my great post. lol
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Old 01-17-2012, 02:27 PM   #87
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No heat and people dying, and all the rest of the problems listed. It's why some people felt that giving up their kids or moving off rez was the right thing to do. Its horrible that these should be identifying factors of being Indian. And for these adopted out kids and other people who felt compelled to leave, having fragmented culture, secret culture, or complete loss of culture, is bad too.

So the choice is, stay and suffer or leave and suffer some too. Or be taken away, worse. So when people reconnect, they are faulted for leaving and not maintaining contact. I understand it, but it is bad too, because it denies the depth of the racism that forced the people away in the first place and people fail to realize the sacrifice these people made or were forced to make in the case of adoption. There is no good answer. It's horrible and unnatural, that's why there is no answer. As for drinking and drugs, it follows you around no matter where you are. My family was destroyed by not knowing, literally. And they got discriminated based on their skin color too.

So don't be hard on those who don't know, because some are not so distantly related. And for those who leave, sometimes all they get to know is all the bad things and none of the good things, imagine that. For a long time I thought being mixed indian means low self esteem and as a woman being treated bad, esp. by white guys if you told them you are part Indian. My ex who was Indian treated me so different, so much better. I saw alot of abuse though, I think that was from the boarding schools and alcoholism, not an aspect of culture, at least not in my family, quite the opposite, we kids were spoiled.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:05 PM   #88
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~sigh~ I apologize if my words seemed harsh. After sleeping on it I wondered if I could have been more gentle with my words or whether I should have said anything at all.Generally I am one who holds up the positive in all things.The encourager if you will. But-I lacked some self control on this issue last night.I may have even overstepped my bounds a bit by even being the one to bring up the subject. If I have offended, I apologize.
I think what Josiah has to say is good. So I would like to hear more of what he has to say.Thanks for listening.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:26 PM   #89
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~sigh~ I apologize if my words seemed harsh. After sleeping on it I wondered if I could have been more gentle with my words or whether I should have said anything at all.Generally I am one who holds up the positive in all things.The encourager if you will. But-I lacked some self control on this issue last night.I may have even overstepped my bounds a bit by even being the one to bring up the subject. If I have offended, I apologize.
I think what Josiah has to say is good. So I would like to hear more of what he has to say.Thanks for listening.

I don't think you were out of line comadre. I think you spoke from what you know and experience. You as a spouse of a native deal with some stuff too because you are with a native, sometimes I think twice as bad, cause you not only get it from some of the natives who are prejudice, (yep I said it), but from the white community because you are with a native. My wife gets it also, and from some of her own family. My opinion you don't owe anyone an apology. I don't think you came off any other way but informative and respectful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
No heat and people dying, and all the rest of the problems listed. It's why some people felt that giving up their kids or moving off rez was the right thing to do. Its horrible that these should be identifying factors of being Indian. And for these adopted out kids and other people who felt compelled to leave, having fragmented culture, secret culture, or complete loss of culture, is bad too.

So the choice is, stay and suffer or leave and suffer some too. Or be taken away, worse. So when people reconnect, they are faulted for leaving and not maintaining contact. I understand it, but it is bad too, because it denies the depth of the racism that forced the people away in the first place and people fail to realize the sacrifice these people made or were forced to make in the case of adoption. There is no good answer. It's horrible and unnatural, that's why there is no answer. As for drinking and drugs, it follows you around no matter where you are. My family was destroyed by not knowing, literally. And they got discriminated based on their skin color too.

So don't be hard on those who don't know, because some are not so distantly related. And for those who leave, sometimes all they get to know is all the bad things and none of the good things, imagine that. For a long time I thought being mixed indian means low self esteem and as a woman being treated bad, esp. by white guys if you told them you are part Indian. My ex who was Indian treated me so different, so much better. I saw alot of abuse though, I think that was from the boarding schools and alcoholism, not an aspect of culture, at least not in my family, quite the opposite, we kids were spoiled.
muskrat,

The problem is not that when folks RE-connect they are treated bad. The problem is folks trying to connect to something that is not there. In all honesty, I would rather someone who has 1/128 blood just come out and be honest and say, look, somewhere in the wood pile, there is native, but it's so far down the line it's more like kindling, but I'm curious as to what the life and culture and heritage is like. Unfortunately that's not how it goes, you know that, you've seen it on here. That's all I'm saying. And the other thing is, is that I wish we could just break this romanticized Hollywood fairytale that folks think it is to be native. It's tough being Native, and that's just that. Anyway I'm done.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:01 AM   #90
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[QUOTE=The problem is not that when folks RE-connect they are treated bad. The problem is folks trying to connect to something that is not there. In all honesty, I would rather someone who has 1/128 blood just come out and be honest and say, look, somewhere in the wood pile, there is native, but it's so far down the line it's more like kindling, but I'm curious as to what the life and culture and heritage is like. Unfortunately that's not how it goes, you know that, you've seen it on here. That's all I'm saying. And the other thing is, is that I wish we could just break this romanticized Hollywood fairytale that folks think it is to be native. It's tough being Native, and that's just that. Anyway I'm done.[/QUOTE]


gotta say my 2 cents worth here,,, my wife and daughter are both Cherokee and were told they were black irish to avoid conflicts! They grew up wondering and feeling lost. I Married Falcon Rising in november of 2010 and took time with her and Flying Raven.... yes both members here... Christine was hinted at that she was Cherokee when she was a child, her mom never went outside to keep her skin white as possible so as not to loose the homestead. Katie (flying raven), came to see me and felt lost,,, she started dancing and it came to her so fast and natural that she KNEW where home was. Since then both have been digging and found their true roots, Cherokee from North Carolina where Katie now lives,,, she married her childhood friend Jon... also Cherokee... however even though I married Christine it still doesn't make me one... but it does show total respect and apreciation to the heritage! So to any of you that read this,, this is only one of the reasons I defend what I have been doing for so long,,, showing honour and respect for my friends and relations, not because I WANT to be. I grew up in a very tuff time....racism was everyday rampant and degrading,,, being raised in two homes made my life wierd... then having dad in the forces and showing me parts of europe made me wonder even more... I came home, disapointed in humans in general and when I went back to the reserve in Pikwakangan I started to come alive again,, there was no way to explain it in simple words or even detail... I was home was all I could think. People that really know me for who I am are in my circle and do believe I am what I am,... adopted very young and have found my home. I am lost without the circle. So to one and all have a good day.
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Born in Winnipeg raised in the Pikwakanagan, Deutschland was never home! Army brat that had no choice in a parents duties to home and country. I Too Serve our flag and work for the uniform.
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Old 01-25-2012, 05:08 AM   #91
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@Josiah got me thinking about a few things he said. He made genealogy seem interesting. So I looked up my hubby's family on the rolls. Pretty neat stuff! Found the Miller,Chapman, and Dawes rolls online and found the family along with notes. What got real interesting was that I could see them on several rolls.As I looked at dates and rolls and territories I could literally see the history of a family unfold right there on paperwork. kinda neat. I called my mother in law to tell her about it and she thought it was neat as well.One can literally see where the families were moved and relocated.Well- nothing neat about that part. It was real sad however to see the list of orphans. It made me stop and wonder if these orphans lost their parents along the trail during removal.If you sit before that history on paper- it's as if you can close your eyes and watch history unfold.I've never done that before.(We European breeds keep our stuff in bibles.Lol.)
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Old 01-28-2012, 04:48 PM   #92
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@Josiah got me thinking about a few things he said. He made genealogy seem interesting. So I looked up my hubby's family on the rolls. Pretty neat stuff! Found the Miller,Chapman, and Dawes rolls online and found the family along with notes. What got real interesting was that I could see them on several rolls.As I looked at dates and rolls and territories I could literally see the history of a family unfold right there on paperwork. kinda neat. I called my mother in law to tell her about it and she thought it was neat as well.One can literally see where the families were moved and relocated.Well- nothing neat about that part. It was real sad however to see the list of orphans. It made me stop and wonder if these orphans lost their parents along the trail during removal.If you sit before that history on paper- it's as if you can close your eyes and watch history unfold.I've never done that before.(We European breeds keep our stuff in bibles.Lol.)
That is exactly why I do what I do. It is as if you can sit and see them when you close your eyes. I work in the Rolls on a daily basis and I love it totally. I do it all the time and love to watch it unfold before my eyes. That's the best part.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:26 AM   #93
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That is exactly why I do what I do. It is as if you can sit and see them when you close your eyes. I work in the Rolls on a daily basis and I love it totally. I do it all the time and love to watch it unfold before my eyes. That's the best part.
what touched me were the children that would show up at a roll station orphaned and yet they would be with other adults and other families who cared for their needs. Here is what I saw.Nothing less than a beautiful portrayal of native men and women caring for the children.
And it is just like native families even today.
I think so often on this board we talk and yell and even joke about the tough stuff in native land. The poverty and alcoholism and.........(I just went off about those things a little ways up in this same thread), but I think sometimes we need to remember the good stuff and honor that good stuff. Such as exactly what I just mentioned. People taking good care of people.It is also a strong quality I found in your communities and families.
Anyway-ya T Tiger I can see the stories unfold too now and understand why you enjoy doing what you do.
Could you imagine the lessons that we could learn about ourselves if this kind of history was included in our schools?!!!Hello! I am probably NOT the first to ask that huh? Lol.
My point is...it was goot reading.
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