Register Groups Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Like Tree12Likes

Forum Home - Go Back > General > Ancestry and Genealogy Are there Eastern Blackfeet/Blackfoot? Are there Eastern Blackfeet/Blackfoot?

Reply LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-29-2013, 10:15 PM   #1
Senior Dancer
 
muskrat_skull's Avatar
 
Items DollCatTreasure ChestDevil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: at home
Posts: 690
Blog Entries: 2
Credits: 20,802.32
Savings: 0.00
Are there Eastern Blackfeet/Blackfoot?

Okay, here it is, a new thread.
So, a lot of people in the East say they "have a little Blackfoot" or "Blackfeet Indian in them" usually "way back".

And while for many people, it just means non-Cherokee Eastern Indian that they lump into a group.

Other people say there are or were Blackfoot or Blackfeet Indians in the East.

Blackfoot church in IN:
Memorial To Blackfoot Church~History

Origin of Eastern "Blackfoot" term
Mitsawokett: A 17th Century Native American Community in Central Delaware

Searching for Saponi Town -- Eastern Siouan, Eastern Blackfoot Descendants

I was told by friends long ago that the Eastern Blackfoot/Blackfeet had nothing to do with the nations out west, it was a nickname for some eastern tribe nobody remembers anything about. Some say the name Saponi is from those words.

I figured there were probably lots of native peoples that might use that name or have been called that by whites who couldn't pronounce the real names or who saw their blackened moccasins. Like most people who have heard the eastern blackfoot thing, usually it goes like this, the eastern are blackfeet and the western are blackfoot. But the old records show that blackfoot was the recorded term used, whether a euphamism or not. So that is another part of it.

So here is your debate! I don't have a dog in this fight. I am not any of it.
muskrat_skull is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-30-2013, 09:23 AM   #2
Sg̱aaga g̱uu hla.
 
yaahl's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestElephantGuitarPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
yaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond repute
yaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 2,790
Credits: 42,587.55
Savings: 0.00
I'd like to see samples of the language these eastern "blackfoot" speak.

The Blackfoot Confederacy has within its ranks the Tsuu T'ina - aka Sarcee (Dene/Athabaskan based) which are linguistically unrelated to the Blackfoot language (Algonkian based).

At one time, the Gros Venture (Atsina) were considered part of the confederacy.

In anthropological theories, it is believed that the Blackfoot (which would only include the Siksika and not the Piegan or Kainaa) migrated from the Northeast part of what is now the US in approx the 12th century.

(so my take is that if someone is claiming a 'Blackfoot" ancestor from the east... they'd better have records going back until at least the 12th century...)


The language of the Siksika, is based in Algonkian, same as the Crees, Nisnobs, Innu and Mi'kmaq and other members of that linguistic group. The language of the Piegan and Kainaa is also based in Algonkian - be the same as a brit and a person from TN - they speak English but with two very different accents, vocabulary, vernacular and dialects.

Just to throw in a mix.. the Stoney or Nakoda are also present in the geographical area as well. They are related to the Lakota and Dakota.
__________________
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. — Robert A. Heinlein

I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.

Last edited by yaahl; 03-30-2013 at 09:57 AM..
yaahl is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-30-2013, 07:03 PM   #3
Senior Dancer
 
muskrat_skull's Avatar
 
Items DollCatTreasure ChestDevil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: at home
Posts: 690
Blog Entries: 2
Credits: 20,802.32
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
I'd like to see samples of the language these eastern "blackfoot" speak.

The Blackfoot Confederacy has within its ranks the Tsuu T'ina - aka Sarcee (Dene/Athabaskan based) which are linguistically unrelated to the Blackfoot language (Algonkian based).

At one time, the Gros Venture (Atsina) were considered part of the confederacy.

In anthropological theories, it is believed that the Blackfoot (which would only include the Siksika and not the Piegan or Kainaa) migrated from the Northeast part of what is now the US in approx the 12th century.

(so my take is that if someone is claiming a 'Blackfoot" ancestor from the east... they'd better have records going back until at least the 12th century...)


The language of the Siksika, is based in Algonkian, same as the Crees, Nisnobs, Innu and Mi'kmaq and other members of that linguistic group. The language of the Piegan and Kainaa is also based in Algonkian - be the same as a brit and a person from TN - they speak English but with two very different accents, vocabulary, vernacular and dialects.

Just to throw in a mix.. the Stoney or Nakoda are also present in the geographical area as well. They are related to the Lakota and Dakota.
Some of the Saponi is based on Tutelo, because they were adopted by them at some point. The Saura, Cheraw, Sissipahaw, and Catawba are called Siouan.

The Minor Vocabularies of Tutelo and Saponi (American Language Reprints, 26) by Edward Sapir and Leo Joachim Frachtenberg

Language/word examples:
Tutelo-Saponi Language Lesson
Tutelo Words

Here is pretty complete listing of the tribes in the area and how they migrated and merged:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mo.../faqs/faq2.htm

I think the Siksika is what they do talk about. The connection if any would be so long ago and there was so much migration and regrouping, even the English language has changed significantly.
Some say the name Saponi come from sapa.

Edward Sapir is a pretty famous linguist, I just found that book. Most of cognitive linguistics is based on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (Linguistic Relativity).
muskrat_skull is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-31-2013, 05:16 AM   #4
Ready to dance
 
wyo_rose's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestElephantGuitarPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
wyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond repute
wyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond reputewyo_rose has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Back and Forth
Posts: 16,510
Blog Entries: 2
Credits: 63,056.53
Savings: 0.00
Hmmm...don't see any mention of Blackfoot in those links.

And I think it's been posted here before Siouan isn't Sioux. There's western Siouan and Eastern Siouan which is more often just call Catawban. I'm sure they're related WAY back..before "America" and modern terminology.
__________________
...it is what it is...
wyo_rose is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-31-2013, 10:49 AM   #5
Senior Dancer
 
muskrat_skull's Avatar
 
Items DollCatTreasure ChestDevil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: at home
Posts: 690
Blog Entries: 2
Credits: 20,802.32
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
Hmmm...don't see any mention of Blackfoot in those links.

And I think it's been posted here before Siouan isn't Sioux. There's western Siouan and Eastern Siouan which is more often just call Catawban. I'm sure they're related WAY back..before "America" and modern terminology.
It was in the links in the other thread. I can repost them, or just google it. oh, sorry, top post in this thread, several links.

Last edited by muskrat_skull; 03-31-2013 at 10:50 AM.. Reason: in this thread
muskrat_skull is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-31-2013, 12:03 PM   #6
Senior Dancer
 
muskrat_skull's Avatar
 
Items DollCatTreasure ChestDevil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: at home
Posts: 690
Blog Entries: 2
Credits: 20,802.32
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
The Confederacy used to hunt and forage on both sides of the current Canada-USA border. But both governments forced them to end their nomadic traditions and settle on "Indian reserves" ...The Niitsitapi, also known as the Blackfoot Indians, reside in the Great Plains of Montana and the Canadian provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan.[6] Only one of the Niitsitapi are called Blackfoot or Siksika. The name is said to have come from the color of the peoples’ moccasins, made of leather. They had typically dyed or painted the soles of their moccasins black. One legendary story claimed that the Siksika walked through ashes of prairie fires, which in turn colored the bottoms of their moccasins black.[6] Anthropologists believe the Niitsitapi had not originated in the Great Plains of the Midwest North America, but rather migrated from the upper Northeastern part of the country.

Due to language and cultural patterns, anthropologists believe that the Blackfoot originally coalesced as a group whilst living in the forests of what is now the Northeastern United States. They were mostly located around the modern-day border between Canada and the state of Maine. By 1200, the Niitsitapi had decided to relocate in search of more land.[citation needed] They moved west and settled for a while north of the Great Lakes in present-day Canada, but had to compete with existing tribes. They decided to leave the Great Lakes area and keep moving west.[7]
Blackfoot Confederacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
muskrat_skull is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-31-2013, 01:41 PM   #7
The voices tell me...
 
Joe's Dad's Avatar
 
Items CatCatCatCat
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Joe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond repute
Joe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: I'm right here!
Posts: 15,776
Credits: 137,123.84
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
Hmmm...don't see any mention of Blackfoot in those links.

And I think it's been posted here before Siouan isn't Sioux. There's western Siouan and Eastern Siouan which is more often just call Catawban. I'm sure they're related WAY back..before "America" and modern terminology.
I was under the impression 'Siouan' is the plural of 'Sioux'.
__________________


Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
Joe's Dad is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-31-2013, 01:44 PM   #8
The voices tell me...
 
Joe's Dad's Avatar
 
Items CatCatCatCat
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Joe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond repute
Joe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: I'm right here!
Posts: 15,776
Credits: 137,123.84
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
I'd like to see samples of the language these eastern "blackfoot" speak.

The Blackfoot Confederacy has within its ranks the Tsuu T'ina - aka Sarcee (Dene/Athabaskan based) which are linguistically unrelated to the Blackfoot language (Algonkian based).

At one time, the Gros Venture (Atsina) were considered part of the confederacy.

In anthropological theories, it is believed that the Blackfoot (which would only include the Siksika and not the Piegan or Kainaa) migrated from the Northeast part of what is now the US in approx the 12th century.

(so my take is that if someone is claiming a 'Blackfoot" ancestor from the east... they'd better have records going back until at least the 12th century...)


The language of the Siksika, is based in Algonkian, same as the Crees, Nisnobs, Innu and Mi'kmaq and other members of that linguistic group. The language of the Piegan and Kainaa is also based in Algonkian - be the same as a brit and a person from TN - they speak English but with two very different accents, vocabulary, vernacular and dialects.

Just to throw in a mix.. the Stoney or Nakoda are also present in the geographical area as well. They are related to the Lakota and Dakota.
This is an excerpt from a Southeast tribe.


Language

The earliest Europeans in the Carolinas were astounded by the linguistic diversity of what is now the Southeastern United States. Within the region now known as North Carolina, three language families were represented, as distinct from one another as Indo-European languages are from Uralic languages:
The Hatteras, Chowan, Moratok, Pamlico, Secotan, Machapunga, and the Weapemeoc of the coastal plain spoke a variety of Algonquian languages.
The Cherokee, Tuscarora, Coree, and Meherrin, who inhabited homelands from the coastal plain to the Appalachian Mountains, spoke a variety of Iroquoian languages.
The Catawba, Cheraw, Cape Fear, Eno, Keyauwee, Occaneechi, Tutelo, Saponi, Shakori, Sissipahaw, Sugeree, Wateree, Waxhaw, and Waccamaw of the Cape Fear River and Piedmont regions, were related Siouan-speaking peoples.
The ancestral Siouan Woccon language of the Waccamaw Siouan Indians of North Carolina was lost due to devastating population losses and social disruption of the 18th and 19th centuries, and survives in only a handful of vocabulary items that were recorded in the early 1700s.

Still no mention of Blackfoots.
__________________


Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
Joe's Dad is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-31-2013, 04:28 PM   #9
Senior Dancer
 
muskrat_skull's Avatar
 
Items DollCatTreasure ChestDevil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: at home
Posts: 690
Blog Entries: 2
Credits: 20,802.32
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
I was under the impression 'Siouan' is the plural of 'Sioux'.
Dictionary definition of SIOUAN:
Quote:
n a member of a group of North American Indian peoples who spoke a Siouan language and who ranged from Lake Michigan to the Rocky Mountains
Synonyms:
Sioux
Examples:
show 4 examples...
Types:
hide 25 types...
Biloxi
a member of the Siouan people of southeastern Mississippi
Catawba
a member of the Siouan people formerly living in the Carolinas
Crow
a member of the Siouan people formerly living in eastern Montana
Dakota
a member of the Siouan people of the northern Mississippi valley; commonly called the Sioux
Dhegiha
any member of a Siouan people speaking one of the Dhegiha languages
Gros Ventre, Hidatsa
a member of the Sioux people formerly inhabiting an area along the Missouri river in western North Dakota
Iowa, Ioway
a member of the Siouan people formerly living in Iowa and Minnesota and Missouri
Missouri
a member of the Siouan people formerly inhabiting the valley of the Missouri river in Missouri
Ofo
a member of the Siouan people living in the Yazoo river valley in Mississippi
Oto, Otoe
a member of the Siouan people inhabiting the valleys of the Platte and Missouri rivers in Nebraska
Eastern Sioux, Santee, Santee Dakota, Santee Sioux
a member of the eastern branch of the Sioux
Lakota, Teton, Teton Dakota, Teton Sioux
a member of the large western branch of Sioux people which was made up of several groups that lived on the plains
Tutelo
a member of the Siouan people of Virginia and North Carolina
Winnebago
a member of the Siouan-speaking people formerly living in eastern Wisconsin south of Green Bay; ally of the Menomini and enemy of the Fox and Sauk people
Brule
a member of a group of Siouan people who constituted a division of the Teton Sioux
Hunkpapa
a member of the Siouan people who constituted a division of the Teton Sioux and who formerly lived in the western Dakotas; they were prominent in resisting the white encroachment into the northern Great Plains
Kansa, Kansas
a member of the Siouan people of the Kansas river valley in Kansas
Miniconju
a member of a group of Siouan people who constituted a division of the Teton Sioux
Ogalala, Oglala
a member of the Siouan people who constituted a division of the Teton Sioux and who formerly inhabited the Black Hills of western South Dakota
Maha, Omaha
a member of the Siouan people formerly living in the Missouri river valley in northeastern Nebraska
Osage
a member of the Siouan people formerly living in Missouri in the valleys of the Missouri and Osage rivers; oil was found on Osage lands early in the 20th century
Ponca, Ponka
a member of the Siouan people of the Missouri river valley in northeastern Nebraska
Quapaw
a member of the Siouan people of the Arkansas river valley in Arkansas
Sihasapa
a member of a group of Siouan people who constituted a division of the Teton Sioux
Two Kettle
a member of the Siouan people who constituted a division of the Teton Sioux
Type of:
Buffalo Indian, Plains Indian
a member of one of the tribes of American Indians who lived a nomadic life following the buffalo in the Great Plains of North America

a family of North American Indian languages spoken by the Sioux
Synonyms:
Siouan language
Types:
hide 21 types...
Biloxi
the Siouan language spoken by the Biloxi
Catawba
the Siouan language spoken by the Catawba
Chiwere
the Siouan language spoken by the Iowa and Oto and Missouri
Crow
a Siouan language spoken by the Crow
Dakota
the Siouan language spoken by the Dakota
Dhegiha
a branch of the Siouan languages
Gros Ventre, Hidatsa
a Siouan language spoken by the Hidatsa
Hunkpapa
a Siouan language spoken by the Hunkpapa
Ofo
a Siouan language spoken by the Ofo
Ogalala, Oglala
a Siouan language spoken by the Oglala
Santee
the Siouan language spoken by the Santee
Tutelo
the Siouan language spoken by the Tutelo
Winnebago
the Siouan language spoken by the Winnebago
Iowa, Ioway
a dialect of the Chiwere language spoken by the Iowa
Missouri
a dialect of the Chiwere language spoken by the Missouri
Oto, Otoe
a dialect of the Chiwere language spoken by the Oto
Kansa, Kansas
the Dhegiha dialect spoken by the Kansa
Omaha
the Dhegiha dialect spoken by the Omaha
Osage
the Dhegiha dialect spoken by the Osage
Ponca, Ponka
the Dhegiha dialect spoken by the Ponca
Quapaw
the Dhegiha dialect spoken by the Quapaw

adj.
of or relating to the Sioux people or their language and culture
muskrat_skull is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-31-2013, 07:45 PM   #10
Senior Dancer
 
muskrat_skull's Avatar
 
Items DollCatTreasure ChestDevil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: at home
Posts: 690
Blog Entries: 2
Credits: 20,802.32
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
Hmmm...don't see any mention of Blackfoot in those links.
You need to move your mouse to each of the links in the first post of the thread and click on it. You will see a new web page displayed in your browser, one is all about the "Eastern Blackfoot" in great detail. If you reach these pages and still experience difficulty then well that's a problem only you can solve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
And I think it's been posted here before Siouan isn't Sioux.
About as authoritative as saying "I got some Blackfoot Indian blood in me way back..."

Quote:
And I think it's been posted here before Siouan isn't Sioux. There's western Siouan and Eastern Siouan which is more often just call Catawban. I'm sure they're related WAY back..before "America" and modern terminology.
Leaving aside the gross generalization and whether or not Eastern Siouan is "more often call Catawban", isn't the above quoted statement just a "gentle euphamism" for saying "the only real Indians are the ones in the cowboy movies"? Or to frame a deeper argument of romanticized cultural superiority or otherness? The temporal qualification to your reluctant reversal of position and admission of some relationship between the language families is invalid and non-sensical as the languages either are or aren't related. You are just dragging your feet.

By what parameters do you disqualify the 21 or so Eastern Siouan languages from membership in the Siouan language family and qualify them in a separate and distinctly unique non-Western Siouan "Catawban" language family, what is the proximity for all those languages and is this a more "modern" and more importantly accurate term/classification?

Quote:
The Catawban, or Eastern Siouan, languages form a small language family in east North America. The Catawban family is a branch of the larger Siouan aka Siouan–Catawban family....The Catawban family consists of two languages:
Catawba (†)
Woccon (†)
Both are now extinct (†). They were not closely related.
Oops! Guess not.

Quote:
Tutelo Language, part of the WESTERN SIOUAN language family: Hale published a brief grammar and vocabulary in 1883, and confirmed the language as Siouan through comparisons with Dakota and Hidatsa.[1] His excitement at finding an ancient Dakotan tongue once widespread in Virginia, to be preserved on an Iroquois reserve in Ontario, was considerable.[4] Previously, the only recorded information on the language had been a short list of words and phrases collected by Lt. John Fontaine at Fort Christanna in 1716, and a few assorted terms recorded by colonial sources such as John Lederer, Abraham Wood, Hugh Jones, and William Byrd II. Hale noted the testimony of colonial historian Robert Beverley, Jr. that the presumably related dialect of the Occaneechi was used as a lingua franca by all the tribes in the region of whatever linguistic stock, and was known to the chiefs, "conjurers", and priests of all tribes, who even used it in their ceremonies, just as European priests used Latin. Hale's grammar also noted further comparisons to Latin and ancient Greek in terms of the classical nature of Tutelo's rich variety of verb tenses available to the speaker, including what he remarked as an 'aorist' perfect verb tense ending in "-wa".[1]
James Dorsey, another Siouan linguist, collected extensive vocabulary and grammar samples around the same time as Hale, as did Hewitt a few years later. Frachtenberg and Sapir both visited in the first decade of the 1900s and found only a handful of words were still remembered, by a very few Cayuga of Tutelo ancestry. Speck did much fieldwork in preserving their traditions in the 1930s, but found little of the speech remaining. Mithun managed to collect a handful of terms still remembered in 1980.[3]
The Tutelo language as preserved by these efforts is now believed to have been mutually intelligible with, if not identical to, the speech of other Virginia Siouan groups in general, including the Monacan and Manahoac and Nahyssan confederacies, as well as the subdivisions of Occaneechi, Saponi, etc.
In the 21st century there has been interest, especially among descendants of these original native groups, in contemporary language revitalization.[5]
muskrat_skull is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 04-01-2013, 11:49 AM   #11
Sg̱aaga g̱uu hla.
 
yaahl's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestElephantGuitarPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
yaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond repute
yaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 2,790
Credits: 42,587.55
Savings: 0.00
I guess what I am having trouble with is the cross over between what would be an extension of a migration of a people from east to west (algonkian or proto-algonkian) who ended up being called "the Blackfoot" by others not themselves to what is allegedly remaining in the east.

We are a continent of misnamed peoples. Our tribal names were placed upon us by those who didn't speak our languages. What we call ourselves has been one of many ways to make us disappear.

Many of your groupings are not based on a natural family or clanship but rather colonization and being in the wrong place at the time of the Indian Agent showing up to check off names.

Families that happen to be in the same area for fishing camps were lumped together as a "band" and thus named accordingly. Members that were absent because of being off fishing somewhere else ended up with a different name.

If these easterners are calling themselves Blackfoot and they are not of the same or similar linguistic base as the algonkian (proto or otherwise) then they are not the same people. They are by all accounts, something else with a misnomer attached to them. However, that said many of the so called great linguistic scholars in Aboriginal languages made half their crap up about their language understanding. They imposed linguistic rules that simply can not be used here with many of the languages.

These colonizers made many mistakes in recording and studying our languages, groupings and land use. I am always cautious when using their references to us. If a Haida talks about a Haida, we use certain words that indicate that we understand the construct of our societies, houses and clans. We use our words not those imposed upon us by some linguist that tries to see a connection to their own and when they can't they say..."It's a language isolate".

As Josiah is often seen to say, "we all have our creation stories and our teachings...a mass migration over an ice bridge is not one of them." Our entire history according to whiteman scholarship has little known fact in it...it is primarily based on their theories that allow them to feel good that we might not always have been here - so therefore the stealing of the land isn't as bad as we make it out.

The Dene/Dine are what appears two distinct groups according to some linguists and anthropologists. But when the north was opened up in the late 1900 after the gold rush, there was a "discovery" that these two groups were linguistically connected. Albert Gallatin the linguist that studied the languages of the north, was quited as:

"I have designated them by the arbitrary denomination of Athabaskans, which derived from the original name of the lake.

—1836"

Albert Gallatin’s arbitrary designation has unfortunate connotations as the term describes a shallow, weedy lake rather than a coherent people with shared language and culture. Most Athabaskans prefer to be identified by their specific language and location, however the general term persists in linguistics and anthropology despite alternative suggestions such as “Dene”.

All those codetalkers that the US thought were the only ones able to speak their language... well we have an entire population up here and much closer at that point to being "discovered" by the Japanese that speaks the same language. In the arrogance of the colonizer, it was assumed we all lived in little idyllic camps along the rivers and never traveled, split or migrated away - taking with us the language and ways.

If Japan had successfully managed to cross the Alaskan territory and came across the Atha'b/Dene (which is another name attached by a non-speaker - this time it was a Cree - Athabaskan is a Cree word) in situ, the war in the Pacific might have had a very different outcome. It was our isolation that prevented the knowledge that we also spoke the same language as the codetalkers.
(the irony is the US Army was all over our territory from 1942 and no one made the linguistic connection - it was assumed that we were all different - give us a different name and we are allegedly not the same.)

In my territory, the band name is Champagne - named after a member of the Dalton Trail builders. In their language the place is called - Shadhäla-ra. It was and still is a place where the Tlingit, Tutchone come to meet.

Now back to the Blackfoot/feet. I think that like the "western" tribes of the 1970s and 1990s new age followers, that everyone wanted to have a connection. It seems that a particular group is named to be the tribe of the day for these folks.

The problem is now with online info, interconnectedness with each other, stronger presence to the public it's getting harder to find these remote tribes to all of a sudden become a member of or have an ancestor.

So let's think about that aspect for a moment. The Lakota, Cheyenne, Commanche, Cherokee, etc have all had their turn at the new ager mimicking them and trying to be them or the average joe laying claim to being part something...indian. Now because of tribal documentation being available - too easy to figure out if someone is a fake indian. However, people like the Germans, Poles and new agers still want to be Indian so now they are finding ways to lay claims of native ancestry through historical- and often defunct tribes. These folks don't want the hassle of having to change out their "plains indian" outfits they worked so hard on so they have to find a tribe that are either big enough population that it would be hard to know everyone or isolated enough and far away enough that no one will bother to check their story. Crees, Stoney, Anishnobs, Dene while a very cool plains people, aren't being used because they are in Canada - too hard to explain why the family history has been in the US for generations... eastern tribes just don't have the romanticized mystique of the plains so they are often disregarded by these folks.

So that leaves the smaller plains folks - the Blackfoot... and if anyone does try to check there is the get out of the lie by saying, well my family came from Canada side so the records are there. The there are the tenuous ones that claim an eastern "Blackfoot". I saw a few people try to say they were Lakota a few years back... the US Lakota never heard of them... so their story changed to really being Nakoda from Canada - "ya know, how my family had to run away and hide in the hills because of Custer etc - but we came back to the US when it was safe" excuse.

It seems that the US is running out of tribes that aren't well known enough to have these new agers and wannabes to attach themselves - they are having to dig deeper to find that one tribe that no longer exists but somehow their family survived with the culture intact to claim it these days.
__________________
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. — Robert A. Heinlein

I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.
yaahl is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 04-02-2013, 08:48 AM   #12
On The Rocks
 
AmigoKumeyaay's Avatar
 
Items ElephantTreasure ChestPresentPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
AmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond repute
AmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On The Road mostly, Retired Vagabond
Posts: 5,547
Blog Entries: 2
Credits: 99,523.66
Savings: 1.00
Awesome post Y!

People pay for those DNA tests...then they claim nativeness based upon results...

...supposedly we all came from Adam & Eve anyways? I got their DNA somewhere on me...
AmigoKumeyaay is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 04-02-2013, 09:11 AM   #13
Sg̱aaga g̱uu hla.
 
yaahl's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestElephantGuitarPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
yaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond repute
yaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 2,790
Credits: 42,587.55
Savings: 0.00
Don't know about you AK, but my creation was from the birth of humans from a clam that brought us ot the surface. Not sure who this Adam and Eve are...lol...were they Blackfoot? :)
__________________
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. — Robert A. Heinlein

I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.
yaahl is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 04-02-2013, 10:18 AM   #14
The voices tell me...
 
Joe's Dad's Avatar
 
Items CatCatCatCat
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Joe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond repute
Joe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: I'm right here!
Posts: 15,776
Credits: 137,123.84
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
You need to move your mouse to each of the links in the first post of the thread and click on it. You will see a new web page displayed in your browser, one is all about the "Eastern Blackfoot" in great detail. If you reach these pages and still experience difficulty then well that's a problem only you can solve.

About as authoritative as saying "I got some Blackfoot Indian blood in me way back..."



Leaving aside the gross generalization and whether or not Eastern Siouan is "more often call Catawban", isn't the above quoted statement just a "gentle euphamism" for saying "the only real Indians are the ones in the cowboy movies"? Or to frame a deeper argument of romanticized cultural superiority or otherness? The temporal qualification to your reluctant reversal of position and admission of some relationship between the language families is invalid and non-sensical as the languages either are or aren't related. You are just dragging your feet.

By what parameters do you disqualify the 21 or so Eastern Siouan languages from membership in the Siouan language family and qualify them in a separate and distinctly unique non-Western Siouan "Catawban" language family, what is the proximity for all those languages and is this a more "modern" and more importantly accurate term/classification?



Oops! Guess not.
Wow. For not having a dog in the fight. LOL


In having lived amongst the Siouan Indians of Southeastern North Carolina for decades and raising a family there, I have yet, in 40 years, to hear someone speak the Woccon language. I have, met or know, at least one member of every state recognized North Carolina tribe (with the exception of the Sappony)and never once, have I heard them speak Woccon.

Having John White, write down Woccon words, and hearing Woccon words, are not the same thing. Dr. Pat Lerch, an anthropologist and the University of North Carolina at Wilmington worked closely with the natives of the region and would come to my office on occasion. Never once did I hear her speak of the Woccon language.

One of the greatest barriers in many of the Eastern tribes seeking Federal Recognition is having a language.

On with the Blackfoot discussion! lol
__________________


Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
Joe's Dad is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 04-02-2013, 12:09 PM   #15
Senior Dancer
 
muskrat_skull's Avatar
 
Items DollCatTreasure ChestDevil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: at home
Posts: 690
Blog Entries: 2
Credits: 20,802.32
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
Wow. For not having a dog in the fight. LOL


In having lived amongst the Siouan Indians of Southeastern North Carolina for decades and raising a family there, I have yet, in 40 years, to hear someone speak the Woccon language. I have, met or know, at least one member of every state recognized North Carolina tribe (with the exception of the Sappony)and never once, have I heard them speak Woccon.

Having John White, write down Woccon words, and hearing Woccon words, are not the same thing. Dr. Pat Lerch, an anthropologist and the University of North Carolina at Wilmington worked closely with the natives of the region and would come to my office on occasion. Never once did I hear her speak of the Woccon language.
Well, apparently at some people, these people did. The Woccan aren't part of this discussion. They aren't claiming blackfoot ancestry.
Quote:
One of the greatest barriers in many of the Eastern tribes seeking Federal Recognition is having a language.

On with the Blackfoot discussion! lol
Nah, if you guys can't bother to read the material for the argument before discussing it, read and accurately understand and quote my replies, I'm not wasting my time arguing it. I'm not getting paid to educate people, especially when they make no effort to even understand the arguments for and against.

I really don't have a dog in this fight. I just like seeing how people can be and the lengths they can go to try to defend themselves. Racial bias is bias whether its from ndns or non-ndns.

I mean, who are you and I to tell these people who and what they are? You don't even know what group of people are in question in this argument.
muskrat_skull is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 04-02-2013, 12:18 PM   #16
The voices tell me...
 
Joe's Dad's Avatar
 
Items CatCatCatCat
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Joe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond repute
Joe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: I'm right here!
Posts: 15,776
Credits: 137,123.84
Savings: 1.00
I just quoted you telling wyo_rose the Woccon language was not extinct.

Why would I be racist if my children are from Eastern Siouan bloodlines? You see, I have sat in my office at the tribal office reading this material. I've gone over much of this literature trying to tie in a language base for Southeast North Carolina tribes.


Paid to educate? Who are you educating?

I'm like yaahl. Show me someone who speaks the Eastern Blackfoot language?
__________________


Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
Joe's Dad is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 04-02-2013, 12:30 PM   #17
On The Rocks
 
AmigoKumeyaay's Avatar
 
Items ElephantTreasure ChestPresentPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
AmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond repute
AmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On The Road mostly, Retired Vagabond
Posts: 5,547
Blog Entries: 2
Credits: 99,523.66
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Don't know about you AK, but my creation was from the birth of humans from a clam that brought us ot the surface. Not sure who this Adam and Eve are...lol...were they Blackfoot? :)
Eve was the Original Princess!

I won't say which tribe.......
AmigoKumeyaay is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 04-02-2013, 01:32 PM   #18
Senior Dancer
 
muskrat_skull's Avatar
 
Items DollCatTreasure ChestDevil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
muskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond reputemuskrat_skull has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: at home
Posts: 690
Blog Entries: 2
Credits: 20,802.32
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
I guess what I am having trouble with is the cross over between what would be an extension of a migration of a people from east to west (algonkian or proto-algonkian) who ended up being called "the Blackfoot" by others not themselves to what is allegedly remaining in the east.

We are a continent of misnamed peoples. Our tribal names were placed upon us by those who didn't speak our languages. What we call ourselves has been one of many ways to make us disappear.

Many of your groupings are not based on a natural family or clanship but rather colonization and being in the wrong place at the time of the Indian Agent showing up to check off names.

Families that happen to be in the same area for fishing camps were lumped together as a "band" and thus named accordingly. Members that were absent because of being off fishing somewhere else ended up with a different name.

If these easterners are calling themselves Blackfoot and they are not of the same or similar linguistic base as the algonkian (proto or otherwise) then they are not the same people. They are by all accounts, something else with a misnomer attached to them. However, that said many of the so called great linguistic scholars in Aboriginal languages made half their crap up about their language understanding. They imposed linguistic rules that simply can not be used here with many of the languages.

These colonizers made many mistakes in recording and studying our languages, groupings and land use. I am always cautious when using their references to us. If a Haida talks about a Haida, we use certain words that indicate that we understand the construct of our societies, houses and clans. We use our words not those imposed upon us by some linguist that tries to see a connection to their own and when they can't they say..."It's a language isolate".

As Josiah is often seen to say, "we all have our creation stories and our teachings...a mass migration over an ice bridge is not one of them." Our entire history according to whiteman scholarship has little known fact in it...it is primarily based on their theories that allow them to feel good that we might not always have been here - so therefore the stealing of the land isn't as bad as we make it out.

The Dene/Dine are what appears two distinct groups according to some linguists and anthropologists. But when the north was opened up in the late 1900 after the gold rush, there was a "discovery" that these two groups were linguistically connected. Albert Gallatin the linguist that studied the languages of the north, was quited as:

"I have designated them by the arbitrary denomination of Athabaskans, which derived from the original name of the lake.

—1836"

Albert Gallatin’s arbitrary designation has unfortunate connotations as the term describes a shallow, weedy lake rather than a coherent people with shared language and culture. Most Athabaskans prefer to be identified by their specific language and location, however the general term persists in linguistics and anthropology despite alternative suggestions such as “Dene”.

All those codetalkers that the US thought were the only ones able to speak their language... well we have an entire population up here and much closer at that point to being "discovered" by the Japanese that speaks the same language. In the arrogance of the colonizer, it was assumed we all lived in little idyllic camps along the rivers and never traveled, split or migrated away - taking with us the language and ways.

If Japan had successfully managed to cross the Alaskan territory and came across the Atha'b/Dene (which is another name attached by a non-speaker - this time it was a Cree - Athabaskan is a Cree word) in situ, the war in the Pacific might have had a very different outcome. It was our isolation that prevented the knowledge that we also spoke the same language as the codetalkers.
(the irony is the US Army was all over our territory from 1942 and no one made the linguistic connection - it was assumed that we were all different - give us a different name and we are allegedly not the same.)

In my territory, the band name is Champagne - named after a member of the Dalton Trail builders. In their language the place is called - Shadhäla-ra. It was and still is a place where the Tlingit, Tutchone come to meet.

Now back to the Blackfoot/feet. I think that like the "western" tribes of the 1970s and 1990s new age followers, that everyone wanted to have a connection. It seems that a particular group is named to be the tribe of the day for these folks.

The problem is now with online info, interconnectedness with each other, stronger presence to the public it's getting harder to find these remote tribes to all of a sudden become a member of or have an ancestor.

So let's think about that aspect for a moment. The Lakota, Cheyenne, Commanche, Cherokee, etc have all had their turn at the new ager mimicking them and trying to be them or the average joe laying claim to being part something...indian. Now because of tribal documentation being available - too easy to figure out if someone is a fake indian. However, people like the Germans, Poles and new agers still want to be Indian so now they are finding ways to lay claims of native ancestry through historical- and often defunct tribes. These folks don't want the hassle of having to change out their "plains indian" outfits they worked so hard on so they have to find a tribe that are either big enough population that it would be hard to know everyone or isolated enough and far away enough that no one will bother to check their story. Crees, Stoney, Anishnobs, Dene while a very cool plains people, aren't being used because they are in Canada - too hard to explain why the family history has been in the US for generations... eastern tribes just don't have the romanticized mystique of the plains so they are often disregarded by these folks.

So that leaves the smaller plains folks - the Blackfoot... and if anyone does try to check there is the get out of the lie by saying, well my family came from Canada side so the records are there. The there are the tenuous ones that claim an eastern "Blackfoot". I saw a few people try to say they were Lakota a few years back... the US Lakota never heard of them... so their story changed to really being Nakoda from Canada - "ya know, how my family had to run away and hide in the hills because of Custer etc - but we came back to the US when it was safe" excuse.

It seems that the US is running out of tribes that aren't well known enough to have these new agers and wannabes to attach themselves - they are having to dig deeper to find that one tribe that no longer exists but somehow their family survived with the culture intact to claim it these days.
I appreciate the thoughtful reply, but I doubt there is this big conspiracy here on which tribe to pick, and all these people picked the same tribe because they just knew. With all due respect, this point is pretty nebulous. But it is entirely possible that in the 1800s, any ndn person with black soled moccasins would be designated that by non-ndns.

But, the question isn't, is there a bunch of people glomming onto the term "blackfoot", we could have the same fight about the Cherokee, but that doesn't mean there aren't real Cherokee people.

The question isn't whether the population significant enough or is there enough blood left for any of these people to call themselves nndn.

We can say alot of Eastern ndn nations are gone, but then they show up again. Is it right to dismiss people because they were bore the brunt of damage from the colonists? If there is only a handful of people in a nation left, does that mean they aren't ndn? You can say that about most tribes of first contact. Are any of these tribes for real? Many of the Eastern tribes were "scattered" by settlers, so if their tribal or clan structures didn't stay intact, does that mean they aren't ndn?

The question I posed in the post is: Were there and/or is there any REAL Eastern Blackfoot people, and is the term appropriate to be used for any of the eastern ndn peoples? the only group I see claiming it is the Saponi.

Name:

I like point that most of tribal names are names they are called by other people. I wondered about that.

Quote:
The Sihásapa or Blackfoot Sioux are a division of the Titonwan, or Teton (also known as Lakota) Sioux.
Sihásapa is the Lakota word for "Blackfoot", whereas Siksiká has the same meaning in the Blackfoot language. Therefore, both nations have the same English name and sometimes are confused with one another.
This is the Blackfoot they refer to, and this nation called themselves "Blackfoot". So it would be right for these Eastern people, if related, to do the same.

Clans:

They do have clans, but then so do most white people, so that doesn't mean squat in my book. Quakers intermarried. Lots of people intermarried. In fact, cousin marriages and other intermarriage was quite common for whites in America. After all, they wanted to make sure they didn't marry a non-white, what better way! And so we have the American south.

Language:

Tutelo/Saponi--language classified as part of the "Western" Siouan language. I can't speak about how much there is but there seems to be enough for people to write books about it and some descendents say they remember native speakers. I don't know how many words is needed to qualify their language as acceptable to people.

LIST OR ROLL OF MEMBERS:

Quote:
According to archaeologists and others, the original Native population of the Ohio Country was wholly or mainly Siouan. Anthropologists generally agree to on a great Siouan occupation of the Ohio lands.

At the beginning of historic time, the great Ohio Valley had been emptied by Iroquois invaders. The Siouan people were separated, going to the four directions. Some the Siouan tribes were driven toward the southeast and found refuge in Virginia and the Carolinas. They then emerged on the pages of history as the Tutelo, the Saponi, the Monacan, the Occaneechi and others.

Lt. Governor Alexander Spotswood of Virginia sought to protect the various Siouan people by inviting them to settle in 1713 around Fort Christanna in Brunswick County, Virginia. From the western history's point of view these groups were consolidated as the "Saponi Nation".
There is a census from Fort Christiana, documenting these people, their names, many of them had English names, and people can trace their descendency to these people.

So this is the "evidence". If anyone reads this.

Linguists deal with a variety of languages, including asian and polynesian languages, the structure of native american languages, while having differences, is not entirely alien to them. We all have the same brains that work the same way, and there a huge core commonality to all languages because of this. We all have nouns and verbs, and other parts of speech to some degree. I'm not saying that all linguists were well educated, because going way back, they didn't usually have any training at all but the exposure to the language, and that there isn't crappy stuff out there.

Edward Sapir was a pretty good linguist though.
muskrat_skull is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 04-15-2013, 03:47 PM   #19
Dances With Fat Chicks
 
milehighsalute's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
milehighsalute has a reputation beyond repute
milehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond reputemilehighsalute has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2012
Location: DENVER
Posts: 1,057
Credits: 31,977.76
Savings: 0.00
could just be that blackfoot = the new cherokee amongst whites

hey i say a post here long before i registered by some clown claiming a blackfoot/cherokee connection because supposedly the blackfook came down from canada to aid the cherokee in the civil war......whatever.....some people (especially non-indians) make up indian history as they go along
milehighsalute is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 04-17-2013, 03:30 PM   #20
PauWau Coordinator
 
WhoMe's Avatar
 
Items Devil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
WhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond repute
WhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties
Posts: 7,150
Credits: 11,589.70
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
So, a lot of people in the East say they "have a little Blackfoot" or "Blackfeet Indian in them" usually "way back".

Other people say there are or were Blackfoot or Blackfeet Indians in the East.
m_skull,

According to the 2010 U.S. Census 105,304 Americans self identified themselves to be Blackfeet, making them the 8th largest tribe in the United States. However.... as of November 15, 2011 the membership of the Blackfeet Nation is only 16,924 ENROLLED members! The majority of Americans who self identified themselves as Blackfeet or Blackfoot came from the east coast!


HMMMMMM?
muskrat_skull likes this.
__________________
Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.
WhoMe is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
United Keetoowah Band Of Cherokees Josiah Native Issues 32 12-14-2011 05:29 PM
Eastern Blanket and Eastern War Dancing? WhoMe Pow Wow Talk 22 12-17-2006 08:23 PM
Area leaders support IBIA Eastern Pequot Tribal Nation decision Blackbear Native Issues 0 08-12-2005 02:34 PM
Flowers: Surviving termination: The Eastern Pequots, then and now Blackbear Native Issues 0 07-29-2005 08:19 PM
Just wondering about eastern powwows? off the top Pow Wow Singing 15 03-22-2001 08:34 AM

    

Join the online community forum celebrating Native American Culture, Pow Wows, tribes, music, art, and history.

Join PowWows.com Today!

Your Guide to Native American Pow Wows Since 1996

Register For Free

Enjoy the benefits of being a member of PowWows.com!

Join our Native American online community focused on Pow Wow singing, dancing, crafts, Native American music, Native American videos, and more.

Add your Pow Wow to our Calendar

Share your photos and videos

Play games, enter contests, and much more!






New Threads

Pow Wow Calendar Search

 
Month: Year:

Location:

Videos

Featured Articles

Dance Styles

Crafts

Gallery