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Old 08-05-2003, 06:34 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by JingleBelle
http://www.powwows.com/galleries/sho....php?photo=803

look at the photo, note the child in the photo.
Which child? I saw a dozen kids in the photo, a good number of which were wearing original-style jingle dresses.
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Old 08-06-2003, 02:47 PM   #42
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The baby-girl. The original post made a reference to the fact that the little girl was too young to be wearing a jingle dress. also notice that her dress doesn't just have straight lines.
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Old 08-06-2003, 03:07 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by JingleBelle
The baby-girl. The original post made a reference to the fact that the little girl was too young to be wearing a jingle dress. also notice that her dress doesn't just have straight lines.
OMG ... don't tell the powwow police about that picture! They'll get it banned from the archives as a fake!! LOL ...

I'm still betting the "elder" that chewed out the little girl (original post in this thread) is merely an older person who learned her traditions from a book or someone claiming some kind of similar authority.

I guess we just have to be thankful about that "what you give you get back 10 times or whatever theory," and rest assured someone will come along and kick that "elder's" hiney for being a fool.

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Old 08-07-2003, 12:22 PM   #44
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Okay, here's what I'm thinking as I'm reading these posts. And this will take us off topic (but it's all been said anyway so... :p ).

Anyhooo...has anybody else noticed this trend that not only are white people taking our culture, they're also trying to be some kinda experts at it now? Cuz it sounds to me like this lady is some kinda wannabe. There isn't a single dang Indian elder and/or older person I know on my res who would do this. If it was inappropriate, they would just chuckle to themselves or frown at the family and leave it up to that child's family to correct her. Nowadays, with all these white people running around pow-wowing, there ain't NOBODY in their families who can step up to that role and correct them. That's the problem.

So that's my :Yell . And, BTW, I'm not saying this lady was actually white or that the dress was inappropriate nor I am I calling anyone else white and blah, blah, blah. I'm adding this disclaimer so nobody will get their pannies in a bunch about it. It's just my own opinion to add to the mix.
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Old 08-07-2003, 07:05 PM   #45
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w-w-w-what?

i cant believe that karazy old lady said that.i can just imagine how your daughter felt.dont let that break her spirit.if thats what she wants to do is jingle tell her that if she does it w/good spirits & good medicine then nothing bad will happen to her no matter what any of the elders say!:Angel:
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Old 08-13-2003, 01:50 AM   #46
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My mother is an Elder , an she would never hurt a child like that . But if she saw something like skin hangin out she will take you to the side an school ya fast , I have seen it an I sure dont want her to school me again.
But back to the child , if you see this woman again , approach her an ask her just what is so wrong with what your child was doing. If she is a real elder She will know our children are sacred an if they dance let them dance their little feet off no matter if its in time or not if they feel the drum call let them DANCE!
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Old 07-10-2005, 08:04 PM   #47
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I know this is an old issue and the shock of the krazy lady has passed... it's too bad she treated your daughter that way. But re-reading all this makes me wonder about some of the people we call "elders".... I mean they are older than most of us, but that doesn't make them "wise" (said earlier thank goodness)....

I remember when I asked on elder woman about the veteran's recognition.... she told me that it was for "war veterans".... the next powwow, I asked the AD before grand entry.... he said if you've served, you should be up there and made sure I was. After that the veterans never let me participate in grand entry with the other women dancers... no I had to come in with them. Talk about being loved ...

That elder lady wouldn't say two words to me for the longest time, but she eventually forgot about the whole thing and is a friend again. I'm glad I never confronted her about the issue after the AD instructed me to participate where I belonged... it may have aggrevated the issue. But I'll admit that I wanted badly to say something to her at the time.... good thing I bit my tongue

I was actually looking for some jingle dress info but this thread drew my attention and I felt that it should be stressed that it's okay to help someone adjust a slip up (ie. skin showing that shouldn't be), but not okay to tell a young child that they are doing it wrong or wearing the wrong colors. Just what are proper jingle dress colors? I've seen a lot of pinks and purples and a lot of others too. I think it depends on the dancer's preference.
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Old 07-10-2005, 08:29 PM   #48
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Well i think that the elder was just trying to do whats right by teaching the kid about the "old ways". And although you might have been angry you were right not to go after her. WOW i read some of you guys' comments and sheesh i would hate to be an elder. Little to no respect for your elders. at least that is what I am seeing. I have a friend from the Mille Lacs people that's always telling me how things are with the Jingle dress like when she goes back there for the powwow in August, the jingle dresses are all traditional meaning no flashy colors or designs. that would be awsome to see. She has also told me many things about how the original dance is done. I think people think it is okay to do things without knowing anything or knowing very little about it and thats crazy. OH well thats just my 2 cents what do i know anyway??
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Old 07-10-2005, 08:50 PM   #49
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I wasn't meaning to be disrespectful of elders when I found this... and I really don't think the others were thinking that either.... just goes to show what we read in others comments doesn't it?

Somehow I think the point is that the "elder" was pretty harsh in her actions... pulling the girl out and just telling her it wasn't right....

Most elders I know would say something like "honey, if you want to jingle dance, let's learn some things about it first...."

At least I realized that the elder that talked to me wasn't really sure about the veterans' custom.... that's why I asked the AD.... he wanted to know who had said that to me, but I said it didn't matter as long as it was acceptable for me to participate in the veterans' activities.

I think it's so sad when the people we think are elders and respect as such forget that we want to learn and it's up to them to show us... not just make us stop participating.
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Old 07-11-2005, 12:02 AM   #50
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I agree with what everyone has said...and i think that it sucks when young ones feel like they shouldnt dance anymore or are discouraged in anyway...in one post i read about someone saying it would be silly if someone said they couldnt dance jingle because they werent ojibwe...and i know a lady who doesnt want her daughter to dance jingle because she isnt ojibwe...but i can just see how much her daughter loves and enjoys dancing jingle...so i think if you love the dance....you know about...and respect it...then you should be able to dance it
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Old 07-13-2005, 08:13 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruby 2sday
The nerve! And yeah it's true what Maji said the elder women carrying the stick are who you have to listen to! A main reason why I can't wait to get back into fancy shawl dancing is so I won't have to feel like I'm being criticized by everyone about my jingle dresses and my style of dancing; especially at traditional powwows around here. Sometimes I feel weird out there in my dresses because I worry about what other people think and nobody has approached me well maybe once but it wasn't to get after me...usually I get compliments. But if someone came up telling me I was a disgrace and whatnot I'd probably cry! My dresses, around here anyways are seen as contemporary. But once I get to contests I'm blown away by the intricate designs and flashiness of some dresses; and I think they look good as does the oldstyle ones. I just think that sometimes people have to find something to get bent out of shape about and go from there. If anyone comes up to me to say something about my dresses and style they better have a stick in their hands! Tell your daughter to get back out there and maybe you should approach the elderly lady w/ some tobacco and say "Next time you want to pass advice on to my daughter do it through me! Because it got to the point where she doesn't even want to dance anymore and we shouldn't be discouraging our youth from dancing if we want to keep our culture alive!"
with you on that on!!
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Old 07-14-2005, 12:11 PM   #52
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thats just really mean....well anywhere ya go yar always gonna get that from ppl...i say jest let her go back into jingle..its rough when a person does that but its gonna happen or might happen all her life so best way to do it jest let the person say what they wanna say and and jest keep on dancing...sometimes ppl can be really mean...but always focus on the good things ppl will say to her those ppls thoughts are what matter...i wouldnt left the powwow jest b/c of that... i wouldnt force her into it but try to encourage her...maybe have her speak to other ojibwe jingle dancers that might help besides in the long run she'll learn more.. and have her pray about it...
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Old 08-19-2005, 03:31 PM   #53
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Learning is a long process. Get advice and education from as many knowledgable people as you can in the powwow arena. I am an old jingle dress dancer and I am still learning. I will share what I have learned, but I don't correct people. Dresses have gone through many styles, just like fashion. How many rows, colors, shape of the rows, even materials differ by personal design. I think that's what has made it a beautiful dance. Dealing with criticism and adversity is a lesson you will have to teach your daughter. It sounds like she has a lot of family support and pow wow support. Keep on dancing, keep on learning.
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:54 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by native_flutterby
my granpa had a saying, some people become elders, the other ones just get old. if she was an elder she would have more respect for your child, elders know that children are sacred. so i think she was just an old crone...
My family calls them elders and olders
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Old 01-08-2007, 05:17 PM   #55
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Real sorry to hear about that. One of my daughters was recently pushed out of the way by an elder. This push was a hard one, knocking her down to the ground. When she hit the floor, you could just see the hurt in her eyes...I really felt for her. All I could do was grab her & hold her. I didn't say anything to the person but I thought what he did was just pure rude but I also didn't know quite how to react since that person is an elder. All I can say is...May God forgive people who treat our children like so.
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Old 01-08-2007, 09:30 PM   #56
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just like with anything else we associate with greatness, being an elder means holding a certain degree of power but having the integrity and kindness inside of them not to use it for their own good. it is just so sad that people treat people that way, especially children!! as a lakota, i was always taught that children are the most sacred beings we come in contact with and we should treat them as such. an "elder" with such a lack of dignity or respect for the sacred has not right telling someone who feels the dance within their heart that they cannot do it!!
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Old 01-09-2007, 01:46 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by siouxner_sweetie
just like with anything else we associate with greatness, being an elder means holding a certain degree of power but having the integrity and kindness inside of them not to use it for their own good. it is just so sad that people treat people that way, especially children!! as a lakota, i was always taught that children are the most sacred beings we come in contact with and we should treat them as such. an "elder" with such a lack of dignity or respect for the sacred has not right telling someone who feels the dance within their heart that they cannot do it!!
SO TRUE...
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:03 PM   #58
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elder/lil jingle dancer

Ohhhh, don't get me started on this one---re: elders. My friend says there are 2 kinds of senior citizens: old people and elders. This is true. The ones that are old people try to convince others that they are elders: they're arrogant, they tell people off (i can say anything I want to), they are disrespectful, they are demanding, they try to act traditional and yet they are out there swearing, drinking, being unfaithful, making trouble, causing ill feelings.

Then there are elders who are exactly opposite. They are always in a good frame of mind, they are ready to help whereever possible, they are nonjudgemental, and they are always aware of their status---think before speaking.

HOwever, we also need to be aware of how we have been raised. There is an old saying in my tribe that "if you don't want people to get after your children, teach them how it is suppose to be." In this case, of the young jingle dress dancer, I apologize for her on behalf of our elders, as they sometimes get bad reputations because of the behavior of a few. Not all elders are that way. Have your daughter get permission from an elder to jingle dress and let the elder know what happened previously. This time, your girl will be protected and if it should happen again (hopefully not), she can always say, I got permission from so and so. I paid for that right. Things happen for a reason.

There are certain ways of doing things in the Indian way and if those things are never learned, then there will always be incidents where someone is going to be hurt. Ah-ho, I have spoken............
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:39 PM   #59
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Pink and Purple

As far as I know pink & purple are great colors. I see them alot on the dancing area. An elder should respect everyone's regalia. I wonder if this elder knows what colors are the ones to wear on a jingle dance outfit.
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Old 01-15-2007, 06:34 AM   #60
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I can't believe that an elder would do something like that. I am Ojibwa and have teachers who are elder jingle dancers and talk about it often. I have never heard of any colors being proper or improper.

Some Anishinaabekwewuk get annoyed when they see someone who hasn't been given the proper teachings on the spiritual aspect of this dance, and wear the dress anyway ,but, other tribes have adopted this style just as ojibs have adopted the styles of other tribes, and most understand this, and wouldn't expect a Navajo to practice an Ojibwa religious deed.

It sounds like craziness to me. I wouldn't have blamed you if you read that person the riot act, but I think that it is right that you didn't.

So many young ones are taking a pass on learning our traditions, and I abhor anyone who discourages our youth from participating by spouting these cruel pretensions.

If you see someone doing things the wrong way I think that it is better to make an attempt to tell them with respect and understanding, not bullying and belittling.

To bully a little girl like that is abominable. For an elder to behave in such a way is disgraceful. This is what my elders have taught me.

Niin sa, Chi anung

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