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Old 09-15-2008, 10:14 PM   #21
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yeah...historian? what say you to that?
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Old 09-16-2008, 01:24 AM   #22
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Hey Hey Hey! I must say that this has been a good read! The point was made about doing things for show and all and something hit me like a brick -ouch-!

The idea of wearing medals that you did not earn is important. I know in other discussions I have heard of sons wearing dad's/ grandpa's etc. Purple Heart, Bronze Star and what not to honor dad/ grandpa etc. But no matter how good those intentions were, the vets I know said that it took a little something away from all the men (and women) who earned the right to wear it. In addition it was misleading to people because you had to ask a person to get the low down. I was taught that these clothes once told you everything about a man and those clothes were his medals. In some places I have been it is right for a female relative (mostly wives in my experience) to wear those honors but not a son... the son has to make his own way. I am sure this is not always the case though... depends on who you talk to as I have heard different things.

Now today things have changed and I have been told that you don't wear what has not been given to you. Now something like a beaded belt might be innocent enough, but those folks told me to make yourself a old style quirt and carry it around without the honor of being a whipman is wrong. Same for tail sticks and other 'badges of office'. So when a young boy is roached, he has the right to wear that symbol and that blade feather. It was paid for in a manner that is different, but related to the older way of paying for it. Furthermore the headman of an organization often might give a person taking a new position that symbol to make it official. Even now, many people are dressed by family and the clothes were made for you and show everyone the type of support you have. A little different from the older meanings but things changed when the tribes were told where to live and the freedom to earn those old honors disappeared. Instead of giving it all up, it started to change and take new meaning.

Now every tribe does do it different and some things that mean something to one group might just be clothes to another. That is why it is important for a dancer to pay attention to more that just what they see.

Asking questions is important but how you do it is even more important I have found. Now keep in mind that I know only what has been taught to me so I am willing to bet that I am waaayyy wrong on all of this so please take this with a teenie tiny grain of salt.

Last edited by Fat Albert; 09-16-2008 at 01:28 AM..
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:15 AM   #23
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Angelo,

I don't agree with your statement, about heluska members. Do you speak for all societies and their members? Are you yourself even a member? Where, who, when, what family, better yet, what tribe?

I've known you for sometime, before you started dancing, before you claimed you was from Oklahoma. I don't see where all this expertise is coming from. Sure you talked to a few families, might've even read a few historical facts but are you yourself that knowlegable and experienced to stand out in front and make such bold statements???
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:57 AM   #24
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I couldn't agree more!!!!!!

Last edited by shawndaes; 09-16-2008 at 12:06 PM..
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Old 09-16-2008, 12:04 PM   #25
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Here we go

Opps, couldn't agree more w/ Fat Albert, but i agree w/ Osage too. LMAO
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Old 09-16-2008, 06:02 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmocs View Post
This year I have noticed a trend of wearing a plain otter cap with and roach. Now this caps I assumed from old pictures I have seen were signs of chiefs with certin tribes. Juquian Hamilton looks awsome out there with his.... But why are peps doing this? May reviving a old tradition?
This is how the thread started.........


I responded to the Juquian reference. We know the him and the family. We know the tribes he comes from. Although it looks keen, doesn't mean that you automatically have the right to wear these things. There are some of us, whites and indians, that believe that there are some things you are entitled to and others that you are not.....just like wearing medals........Just because you like it, doesn't mean it is okay. And by the way, I personally like the guy, just don't like the bear claws and roach/turban thing. But those are my tastes and beliefs.

So you will know, I also don't think that just because you like a specific dance style you should change your clothes and style of dance just because you have access to an outfit or want too because it looks cool........this doesn't apply to just straight dancers, applies to all categories and both sexes. Why not be be who you are and take care of things in a respectful manner.........pay your way and follow those ways.

The key is to be respectful, to learn the ways and to take care of it.....

Last edited by luvstraightdancrs; 09-17-2008 at 12:37 AM.. Reason: personal preference
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Old 09-17-2008, 12:33 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osagesooner View Post
Angelo,

I don't agree with your statement, about heluska members. Do you speak for all societies and their members? Are you yourself even a member? Where, who, when, what family, better yet, what tribe?

I've known you for sometime, before you started dancing, before you claimed you was from Oklahoma. I don't see where all this expertise is coming from. Sure you talked to a few families, might've even read a few historical facts but are you yourself that knowlegable and experienced to stand out in front and make such bold statements???
Couldn't agree more....I remember Indian Hills many years back and a drumstick bag I made that he won. He wasn't dancing then. Another questions is "Why don't you dance around home, Oklahoma, that is?????????
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:53 AM   #28
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Say young man(angelo) I don't get on here very often but an ole friend called and expressed his voice about this thread, so here goes.

You were speaking of warrior status and rights, who and how are you able to wear "Bear Claws", again about warriors i've heard and understand that most men earn the right or given by elders for reasons unknown to many of us and some come from Chieftain lineage same as the Otter Cap; Like my ole friend "pawtoeman" comes from the Chieftain line from both of his parents to wear the Otter cap. And he is a member of the Heluska on both sides of the families, a Whipman, Taildancer. As for members of the Heluska his good friend "osagesooner" is too.

Now the gentleman that said the Otter cap/roach that he wears is his tribal dress and as for Oklahoma dancers wearing these items, I can only say that maybe their family has photos or they know more than I do beczuse i'm no expert, I just know what I know.

I too would like to know what "osagesooner" and "luvs" asked of you, i'm jsut wondering and waiting for the answer.
I'll borrow pawtoeman's saying:

"this is all I have to say>"
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:54 AM   #29
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Last edited by uppit; 09-17-2008 at 11:56 AM..
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:15 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvstraightdancrs View Post
This is how the thread started.........


I responded to the Juquian reference. We know the him and the family. We know the tribes he comes from. Although it looks keen, doesn't mean that you automatically have the right to wear these things. There are some of us, whites and indians, that believe that there are some things you are entitled to and others that you are not.....just like wearing medals........Just because you like it, doesn't mean it is okay. And by the way, I personally like the guy, just don't like the bear claws and roach/turban thing. But those are my tastes and beliefs.

Why not be be who you are and take care of things in a respectful manner.........pay your way and follow those ways.

The key is to be respectful, to learn the ways and to take care of it.....
Luvs, you know I can't agree with you more. I sit back and watch these contemporary straight dancers and scratch my head. We've had our straight dance forever and hold it in the highest esteem, including the men that keep our dances and drums in place without much change.

What is the deal with an otter cap/roach combo and bear claw necklaces? It seems to be all about the money, the contest, the latest fashion statement. These guys need to get back to their tribal dances and back to basics, be humble. The problem is they don't. They are on the powwow trail and just out to "out do" each other. Where I come from, not just anyone can wear the bear claw or otter cap. I think that is what is so offensive and annoying. I'm all for encouraging young people to be dressed and dance, but please uphold our old ways and don't put your wallet in front of respect and what is right.
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Old 09-17-2008, 02:09 PM   #31
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Ivan& Luv:

Well freakin' said! Do what you do, but don't put that almighty dollar before being respectful and humble. Personally(just what I decided) thats why I don't contest.
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:44 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivanasnagu View Post
Luvs, you know I can't agree with you more. I sit back and watch these contemporary straight dancers and scratch my head. We've had our straight dance forever and hold it in the highest esteem, including the men that keep our dances and drums in place without much change.

What is the deal with an otter cap/roach combo and bear claw necklaces? It seems to be all about the money, the contest, the latest fashion statement. These guys need to get back to their tribal dances and back to basics, be humble. The problem is they don't. They are on the powwow trail and just out to "out do" each other. Where I come from, not just anyone can wear the bear claw or otter cap. I think that is what is so offensive and annoying. I'm all for encouraging young people to be dressed and dance, but please uphold our old ways and don't put your wallet in front of respect and what is right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADcRezFamily View Post
Ivan& Luv:

Well freakin' said! Do what you do, but don't put that almighty dollar before being respectful and humble. Personally(just what I decided) thats why I don't contest.
Thanks to both of you...was beginning to think I was part of a dying breed. But we have to take what Osagesooner and Uppit are saying into play as well. I know both of these men and they are VERY ACTIVE in their own tribal man dances. Both have served as tail dancers and you see them most all of the man dances in Oklahoma, and even some out of state.

I know my husband comes from a family of man dancers, his late father was asked to revive theirs some 50 years ago. So before anyone goes further with the "only this tribe" can have this dance.....think again. Some of the younger ones need to think before speaking their piece....maybe he missed that chapter in talking with one of his late grandpas or "teachers".
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Old 09-25-2008, 04:13 AM   #33
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Thanks!!!!!!!!!

I've been sitting back and watching/reading these things everyone is saying. I've danced our dance with my friend Osagesooner many times as well as most of these other Gentlemen. I am not an expert by no means. I am not flashy and I don't dress flashy. I do dress well, but not to bring tooo much notice to myself. Our ways are important to us in our Ceremonial world. We must remember that a Powwow is not an Inlonshka/Heluska/Irushka/etc..

I have seen many people receive the honor of wearing a Roach and Eagle feather. I have Roached both of my sons. My Father Roached me and so on. I have even been asked to help Roach. This is an honor that a young man or older man does not soon forget. Again Powwows are not Ceremonials. We must remember that many Powwows do incorporate Ceremonial aspects BUT are not Ceremonials in totality. Many folks try to keep some kind of control on these Powwows so not to get tooooo out of hand. In each part of the United States those local Peoples(Tribes/Nations) normally dictate the norms for the Powwow in that locality. I know many families in the OK/MO/KS area and who they represent. Another thing that needs to be remembered is that many of us (myself included) are of multi-nationalities. We aren't just Osage, Ponca, Kaw, Cherokee, Kiowa, Omaha,,,,,,,,.

I have seen this Turbin/Roach combo on some elders and younger dancers. It has been quite a while ago and I think they were Sauk/Fox, and or Shawnee. This thing about who has rights or not is not for me to say. I know that I do not wear my Otter Turbin during our dance in Pawhuska, I wear one of my Roaches.

Just some of my thoughts on this matter, thank you for allowing me to say these things.
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Old 09-25-2008, 06:40 AM   #34
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My dad told me....

2008 tonkawa powwow i wore my otter cap during contest night.my dad passed it down to me during ponca powwow "07".he gave me the whole speech about the meaning of the two feathers that we wear on top of the otter cap.about how we were chief decendants from ponca chief "bigelk".he also mentioned that that this was the original head dress for the ponca straight.i was proud of it and never wore it during contests.i only wore it when i would dance at the ponca hethoska.but! I wanted to show it off,and decided to wear it during contest night.during the contest one my two feathers on my otter cap came loose and was hanging on for dear life.i didnt even know it,but my whole family knew and everyone was holding there breaths threw the whole song.after the powwow was over my dad told me to sit down.he said your very lucky nothing happened to you tonight.that otter cap is something you should only wear during the hethoska.thats a head dress for chiefs its got alotta meaning when you wear that.it wasnt meant to be in contests its something you wear only around the hethoska or social.its not meant to be in contests!
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Old 09-25-2008, 11:12 AM   #35
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Cherosage:

I think you are right. Powwows can't be controlled as much as ceremonials. People are going to do what they want at powwows. But I highly doubt they would those things in ceremonials.

Ponca:

I liked what your dad said. I was given my tail stick "dance stick"; and an otter turban by one of my late relatives. And I believe we all should wear/use them as they were given to us. Following those instructions. Thank you for sharing your experience. I appreciate it. And if I may say, what you did, is not different from countless others. What I wonder is if their families are saying anything to them? Do they have the guidance from grandpa's and fathers and uncles to correct them? Are they just choosing not to listen? Or are they just "expressing themselves" at powwows as to "who and what" they are? Or maybe they just like it, and want to "sport" it...

I don't know. But something that i like about powwows.com, and especially this forum. Is having the ability to talk about things, ask questions, get prespectives, share a little opinion and some fact. And it is nice not to get totally "shut down" when you want to express yourself and it may differ from what others think or were taught. Thank you to everyone here.
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Old 12-31-2008, 07:38 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osagesooner View Post
Angelo,

I don't agree with your statement, about heluska members. Do you speak for all societies and their members? Are you yourself even a member? Where, who, when, what family, better yet, what tribe?

I've known you for sometime, before you started dancing, before you claimed you was from Oklahoma. I don't see where all this expertise is coming from. Sure you talked to a few families, might've even read a few historical facts but are you yourself that knowlegable and experienced to stand out in front and make such bold statements???


well it seems that ive been miss understood. lol. its funny but i never claimed to be an expeert or to speak for the hethuska community. but i do go to powwows all over the country and oklahoma. and i do go to tail dances and i sing as well. as it is said on here people remember me at the drum. if you sit there at the drum with all those singers, then u pick up on a lot of things. singers know a lot about this dance cuz they have to sing the appropriate song for the right dance. there are guys on here that wasnt even goin to powwows back then and nobody questions there ability to give their opinion, lol. im a choctaw and yes i have hooked up with the right families so with that ive gained some vital info on this dance. all u guys seen me when i would drive the late Browning Pipestem to powwows or see me with Henry Collins at his drum. lol. dont any of you guys think i asked questions or was just told things by these respected men? or when i lived up in macy, ne with the omaha people who are hethuska people. or seen me dancin at ohoma lodge or bein a tail dancer at commanche raiders, lol. ive been taught songs that some of you guys might not know or then again you might do. but trust me i know what everything means on my rig. i know how to conduct myself in a tail dance too. it was jerod buff who mentored me when i was a nobody dancer, not sayin that im all bigshot or anything. but the hethuska ways are not followed at dances up north. they are straight dancers out there that are top dancers who dont even know what a tail dance is. so when i say real hethuska dancers or members, you have to know that for you guys that are part of those ways then im not talkin bout you. keep in mind there are ponca, otoe, pawnee, ho chunk, omaha, sioux, arikara, kiowa, commanche, witchita, sac & fox, and a whole bunch of other tribes that have the hethuska. if we are to use the old style way the hethuska society gave out honors, then some of us probably wouldnt be able to dance this dance. even me prolly, lol. most of the dancers at tail dances arent indian themselves either. but we go there and its a good place to dance. but i think and its just my opinion that all these old regailia things that are comin back is good cuz it gets us to remember what we was told. like robert said about what he was told about the otter cap. when he gets older he will remember that and pass it on to his kids. like juaqin using both the otter and roach, it prolly has meaning to him and his family. and my point was if u wanna know what it means to him, then ask him. most of us on here have been friends for a long time so just ask. and yes i prolly do need to go back to oklahoma, lol. i got warrants, lol, tho. traffic warrants that is, lol.
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Old 12-04-2017, 05:27 PM   #37
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Just wanted to put out there that Shawnee, Delaware, Ojibwa, Odawa, Bode'wadmi, Algonquin, Menominee, Miami, Sauk, Missasauga, Saulteax, Kickapoo, and other Algonquian tribes traditionally wore otter turbans. They are of a similar style, but with floral beadwork. Many of our people wore these. We still do, but now mainly it is a popular piece in straight dancing. Some books made by historians on us say that the Otter Turban is now obsolete. Wow... The tribes listed would also wear Otter Turbans with Roach. I don't know the history on that as I don't see it often. All I wanted to add, and by no means to disrespect, is that not only southern plains tribes wore otter turbans traditionally. They also wore bear claw necklaces, although I am making one similar out of Beaver Teeth, not to change or damage tradition. I just want to finish my regalia with something different. Hope all is well with everyone!
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Remember Wounded Knee, but also Remember Standing Rock! The attacks on our peoples continue to this very day. On which side will you be when we make history? Choose the right side.

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Old 12-04-2017, 05:36 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by WhoMe View Post
Shawn,

You brought up some good points.

I asked someone about this thread. They said, "think about this, would you wear a medal of honor, a bronze and a silver star in public, if you didn't earn it?"


Hmmm?


Do treaty medals count against that? I know a few of my people wear small treaty coins or medals on their regalia.
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Hope all is well with everyone.

"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is stong."
- Tekamthi/Tecumseh

Remember Wounded Knee, but also Remember Standing Rock! The attacks on our peoples continue to this very day. On which side will you be when we make history? Choose the right side.
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