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Old 09-16-2004, 11:17 PM   #61
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Donna

Well, I am not going to debate with you whether it is right or not for non-natives to start powwow clubs, gourd societies or Helushka's, because right or wrong powwowing and NDN culture has spread well beyond the NDN world and has even left the shores of this continent and is practiced in many corners of the world that it had never been seen in previously, and there is no bringing it back now.

Now as to your Comanche friend I would assume that he would realize that there is no absolute way to start a powwow or hold a grand entry. Every new area I go to does things different from the last I was at and almost always different from what I am used to seeing back home. Does that make what they are doing wrong? I do not see where it does. Yes, powwowing is becoming pretty standardized but every area still puts a bit of it's own flavor to the dances they hold. I can remember not too long ago when you only saw grand entries every now and then. Quit often dance that were being run in a southern (Oklahoma) style would start out with the starting song and nothing more. Northern dances did not have head dancers, but instead just had whipmen. Maybe we should be asking whether the standardizing of powwowing is a good thing since it causes the lose of diversity in powwowing?

As for your 'grouchy old 4/4 Comanche' friend thoughts on Gus...do you put that much stock in one persons word/opinion? I can see why you two get along cause from your descriptions it sounds like he thinks pretty highly of himself as well. Maybe you could explain why you felt the need to make that post. There was no need to post his opinion on here of Mr. McDonald. I am sure there are folks out there that have the same opinion of your friend, and you just aren't privy to it. Everyone has an opinion and I know there are folks out there (and on here) that have a low opinion of me or of people I know. Does that mean they are right ... in their mind yes, but in mine and obviously in the minds of my friends, no. So what is the point of bringing it up in public like this? I just don't see the need, unless you feel that man's opinion ratifies your own, and since I do not know your friend and am not impressed by what you have wrote about him, I for one will not be putting that much stock in what he has to say, so you might want to try a different way of justifying your views.

Oh yeah, hopefully my grammar meets with your approval now since it isn't 4 AM like it was when I posted last time.
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Old 09-17-2004, 01:10 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Historian
I have heard that "real" Kiowa Gourd Clan dancers use rattles made from hollow gourds, and others not afiliated with the Kiowa Gourd Clan, use rattles made from aluminum salt or pepper shakers. Has anyone else heard this?
Or, rather...we used to. In the modern era, we (Kiowa Gourd Clan members) have moved from using real gourds to using non-gourd rattles. This is simply a show of respect to the Native American Church members. You'll see real gourds used even at Carnegie during the annual Kiowa gourd dance, but those are mostly folks who are NAC as well.

It's a show of respect, rather than a rule.
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Old 09-17-2004, 01:11 AM   #63
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btw...how'd this topic about gourd dancing end up here in the "Straight Dancing" forum, which has no relation?
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Old 09-21-2004, 03:13 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakeeya
OMG lady you don't give up do you? First of all it isn't cool to be putting people down using their full names, you could get banned for that or get this thread closed. Secondly, just as you want everyone to respect what you say then you need to do the same and show some respect. Thirdly, I think it's very distastlful for you to say that the reason men dance a certain style is for women to notice them, that's just stupid and you sound horny, lol... :rofl2:
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think Donna better give it up!! LOL - Kakeeya!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's my two cents: I'm sick and tired of people (non-Okies) putting on straight dance clothes and jumping and skipping all over the arena and acting like they know it all. It is shameful and just plain disrespectful. I don't care who gave you the right to dance this old dance or gave you clothes to wear, puleeeeeze respect it. For those of you that want to learn, talk to the men that this dance belongs to and get your facts together BEFORE you step into the arena. This man dance is highly respected where I come from.
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Old 09-22-2004, 06:55 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D
Freud would say you have a problem yourself if you desire to make yourself look good at the expense of others. He vould zay you haf a deep-seated anger at yourself vhich cannot be expressed any oder vay. (Imagine typical Freudian psycho-logist with the overstated German accent)

I say, play nice.
and Freud would perscribe cocain to his patients....
He would say that you were punishied during your potty training..... go figure...??
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Old 09-23-2004, 10:50 AM   #66
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Question. How old would someone be if they won the first Fancy Dance Contest in 1920? At the very least 100? Is it possible?

You might want to check with "WhoMe" for more information. The question was for him. He's the expert.

Last edited by Donna D; 09-24-2004 at 05:21 PM..
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Old 09-23-2004, 01:42 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D
Question. How old would someone be if they won the first Fancy Dance Contest in 1920? At the very least 100? Is it possible?

straight outta left field.....missed the plate and threw it in the stands though....

what the heck does this have to do with anything??

just askin'....
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Old 09-23-2004, 03:27 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rock
straight outta left field.....missed the plate and threw it in the stands though....

what the heck does this have to do with anything??

just askin'....
You must excuse her. When you're Cherokee blood quantum is that thin..........you're body can't seem to pump out enough oxygen to yer brain for logical thought.

GAH!!!!!
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Old 09-23-2004, 04:26 PM   #69
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also...how did gus mcdonald get mentioned on here as well??? he was the one who created the fancy dance....so......???????????????????????????
sounds like old man was jealous of Gus.

and how come all of Donna D's friends are something..like my comanche friend, my cherokee friend.
Do you only have one friend from each tribe???? I have too many Kiowa friends to just refer to one as my Kiowa friend....plus......it sounds white. Am I the only weirdo bothered by that??? LMAO. don't know why I had to bring that up...it just kept buggin me so I did......

whadda ya want from me?
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Old 09-24-2004, 05:25 PM   #70
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Actually, I was speaking of one particular Comanche. I've said before that I know all the Numunus previously mentioned. You guys have no idea who you're blindly following, do you? That's all I'm going to say on that. But just because someone says he's such and such on the internet--it's not always a good idea to believe them.

I haven't referred to anyone else as my so-and-so friend, just the grumpy Comanche.
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Old 09-25-2004, 12:15 AM   #71
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D
Actually, I was speaking of one particular Comanche. I've said before that I know all the Numunus previously mentioned. You guys have no idea who you're blindly following, do you? That's all I'm going to say on that. But just because someone says he's such and such on the internet--it's not always a good idea to believe them.

I haven't referred to anyone else as my so-and-so friend, just the grumpy Comanche.
A lot of Okies know each other on here and respect perticular ppl because we know em..... Most of us Okies were rasied going to powwows and we heard the drum growing up and before we were born..... These dances that you are so fond of, we okies come from thies tribes that these dances come from, and our grand parents danced these dances and tell us thier origins and how the dance should be done!

you should listen to some of the ppl that post on here they know what they are saying.....

I don't agree with ppl that find out that they MIGHT have some indian blood ie., cherrokee for example(not to disprect my real cherrokee homies), and all of sudden some wayward NDN tell them something they think and all of a sudden is the Bible... when infact it ones opinion..... I see NDN's move away and all of sudden they have this white ppl fallowing em' and holding to every word because they are the only NDN they know...... you sound like you found an NDN to fallow and hold on to his every word... quotting his every word and opinion....

and my Lady our Princess I do think it sounds funny, you know as well as I we know here died black hair type.......
I be she has t-shirts with wolves howling at the moon.....


Hey donna just remember that everything is not scared and everything doesn't have to be blessed every time some one farts..........Gwah......

Cherrokee nation Cherrokee ppl, so proud to live, so proud to die!!! gwah... I better stop!!!
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Old 09-25-2004, 06:50 PM   #72
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I hear ya. Oklahoma dudes know about straight dancing. I'm far & away from Oklahoma, so I know dick about this stuff. So.......... ya know what? I should just keep my yap shut about these things.
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Old 09-26-2004, 04:39 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D
Actually, I was speaking of one particular Comanche. I've said before that I know all the Numunus previously mentioned. You guys have no idea who you're blindly following, do you? That's all I'm going to say on that. But just because someone says he's such and such on the internet--it's not always a good idea to believe them.

I haven't referred to anyone else as my so-and-so friend, just the grumpy Comanche.

LOL.....she's a trip.....

to follow your own advice....I believe nothing Donna says on the internet...cause it's all BS....

have a good one...
i'm outta this one....

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Old 09-29-2004, 04:10 PM   #74
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Okay, don't believe this.... You people are just mean-natured. What do you not believe? That all the people on this board are who they say they are? Do you really believe you've been talking to and supporting a 100+ year-old former fancy dancing champion? Ya wanna buy a bridge?
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Old 09-29-2004, 04:45 PM   #75
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take it all in stride......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D
Okay, don't believe this.... You people are just mean-natured. What do you not believe? That all the people on this board are who they say they are? Do you really believe you've been talking to and supporting a 100+ year-old former fancy dancing champion? Ya wanna buy a bridge?

You seem to wanna believe that people on here don't know what they're talking about to make yourself seem wiser somehow. It's no doubt you've got a little experience, but just like most people in your situation you tend to take little bits and run with it like you wrote the book.

Some people on here approach you with respect and refute your mistakes kindly. The mean-spiritedness never shows up until your reply. Others flat out go nuts, but I understand their frustration.

If you wanna be a victim do it somewhere else. This is about discussion and if someone says your wrong and you never have a good argument to back it up other than "this is what someone mysterious person told me and they have this and that reason to be credible"

I'll just put it to you like this. There's a lot of legitimate people on here who've lived the stuff you talk about their whole lives. Some of them I know personally and I happen to know how well versed they are on what they are talking about. I'm not "believing" what I read on the internet, but reaffirming things I knew to be facts before the internet existed. I'm not sure if you've ever gone back to your old posts, but you've called Woogie a Kiowa and then argued with Kiowa people when they told you he was Comanche, you've insulted Poncas, Gus McDonald and others when they weren't even involved in the conversation in the first place.

Craziness all to make yourself look like you're being attacked and the whole world hates you because you carry "The Truth" That attitude can be compared to cult leaders who recreate reality and mold it to their own Dogma.

You're not a victim here Donna. The negative behavior you see here is a result of your own outward negativitiy and general "know it all" attitude (something never respected by Indians and especially pow-wow people).

I say it on here all the time. I'm not perfect and I don't claim to be nor do I have all the answers, but this one is a no brainer. You make up a lot of stuff to suit your own ego and then play a victim and to me that's a sign of a sincere insecurity problem. If a real Psychologist read your posts you might find the diagnosis you've given others is actually a self-diagnosis.

Take it easy Donna. This is the net, not real life and nobody hates you here. Especially when they don't know you. Just lighten up a bit and you might find a lot kinder audience to what you have to say.

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Old 09-29-2004, 04:53 PM   #76
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Check the posts, that's all I'm saying. A certain person here is claiming to be the person who won the 1920 Men's competition. Even if he won at age 16, he would be a minimum of 100 years old today. You keep telling me I'm wrong with nothing to back me up. I have friends who know this guy. Just check for yourself.

I wish I knew how to use this "quote" thingy, but I don't spend that much time here. But the statements I made about a particular Ponca were backed up by someone else who heard him speak, but you attackers never seem to remember that. The psychiatrist bit was something to lighten the mood a little, but you didn't get it. As for "poor little me" I could give a rat's ----- what you think, because, apparently, you don't.

Last edited by Donna D; 09-29-2004 at 05:55 PM..
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Old 09-29-2004, 09:27 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D
Check the posts, that's all I'm saying. A certain person here is claiming to be the person who won the 1920 Men's competition. Even if he won at age 16, he would be a minimum of 100 years old today. You keep telling me I'm wrong with nothing to back me up. I have friends who know this guy. Just check for yourself.

I wish I knew how to use this "quote" thingy, but I don't spend that much time here. But the statements I made about a particular Ponca were backed up by someone else who heard him speak, but you attackers never seem to remember that. The psychiatrist bit was something to lighten the mood a little, but you didn't get it. As for "poor little me" I could give a rat's ----- what you think, because, apparently, you don't.

You see this is what i'm talking about. You've got your uns all twisted for nothing.

If you wanna talk details the Ponca comment I referred to was where you said:

"The Ponca people claim to have invented every powwow dance in existence...."

As for the PSYCHOLOGIST part I was referring to your diagnosis on here of everyone being mean and hateful and that they are really reflecting self hate which is what I truly believe you are doing. There's about a hundred more examples, but it's a waste. I'm not gonna hash them out with you when others have already and correctly so. For the most part I feel badly for you and I hope you find your way. Feel free to slam the hell outta my internet persona if you feel the need.......I won't respond to it so you can feel like you got the last word in and maybe help that insecurity out a little bit. It's all good.

Later,
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Old 09-30-2004, 12:00 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rock
"The Ponca people claim to have invented every powwow dance in existence...."
hmm, I thought that was the Crows... :Eyebrows
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Old 10-01-2004, 05:14 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D
Check the posts, that's all I'm saying. A certain person here is claiming to be the person who won the 1920 Men's competition. Even if he won at age 16, he would be a minimum of 100 years old today. You keep telling me I'm wrong with nothing to back me up. I have friends who know this guy. Just check for yourself.

As for "poor little me" I could give a rat's ----- what you think, because, apparently, you don't.
___

DonnaDuh,

Nobody here is claiming to be the winner of the "1920 Men's competition." And nobody here is saying this person is even alive. Why do you keep bringing this up?

You have friends who know this guy? I have friends who are members of his family and can attest to the rich legacy of both fancy dance and Man Dance history. I also consult regularly with one of the oldest Ponca men to gather information about their culture.

Don't go to a Comanche or Cherokee for Ponca information.

For the record, Gus McDonald "was" a proud Ponca. He is now deceased.

Gus did not originate the Men's Fancy Feather dance. However, he did win the first National Men's Fancy Dance competition held at the Haskell Institute in Lawrence, Kansas in 1926. For this honor, the longest continuous "Men's World Championship Fancy Dance Contest" is held in his former home in White Eagle, Oklahoma, each year.
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Old 06-30-2005, 10:11 PM   #80
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Gledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond repute
Gledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond reputeGledanh Zhinga has a reputation beyond repute
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Straight is Intertribal.

As of this writing in mid-2005, straight dancing is intertribal as done at powwows by different tribes. The Navajos [Diné]have taken to many of the dance styles in the last few decades, and that includes a few straight dancers. Straight contests are fairly prevalent now in the powwow world.

But the dance is also tribal, as with the various man dance societies. I don't think the societal dances are all that exclusive, however. If one shows up at a Ponca home dance with an outfit and good intentions, he can dance by taking up the subject with the nudahonga or the committee. If the first time into the circle, he wiil be taken in by the whip man and will have someone speak briefly in his behalf. He will make gift(s) often to the drum and/or the committee.

In October of 2002, I participated in a Pawnee man dance put up by the Kitkahaki Band. The Pawnee prefer to have at least one dance a year, but it depends on one of the bands getting it together to feed and make the announcement. There were about three non-Pawnees participating. In all, about 20 dancers took part.

In Osage country, many families put up camps, and feed and take care of visitors in The Indian Way. In the three districts, women are allowed to dance, even though the dance was given as a man dance by the Kaw and Ponca. I suppose women came into the circle sometime in the early 1900's.

One time "long ago", I danced as a feather dancer at Gray Horse. The whip put me waaay down at the end of a group of dancers with a little bit of bench separation. But I was allowed to be a dancer.

Abe Conklin had a bumper sticker: "Never been to Red Earth; Been to Gray Horse".
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