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Old 12-28-2005, 12:27 AM   #21
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Thanks for the info on the Ho-Chunk Hayluska. A friend sent me pictures of the dance they held in the summer. I was glad to see this restarted in that area. Someday I hope to attend.
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Old 12-29-2005, 02:41 AM   #22
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I was told that the Omaha s have a tail dance session prior to their dances.

Have you been able to dance with the Apaches in Lawton OK. They have a dance they call Apache Formal Dance. When I was able to dance with them they were at the Fair Grounds. Same building the CIVA danced at along with some other dances. I think this dance is in the spring, sorry can't remember.
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Old 05-20-2006, 09:54 AM   #23
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In the powwow scene, each tail dance that I have witnessed has been a little different, depending, I guess, on the committee's interpretation. It seems there is a lack of understanding or consensus about what tail dancers really do at their home society dances.

At the recent Black Eagle Powwow held at Santa Ana Star Casino, New Mexico, there was a pseudo, quasi something or another which the committee thought was a "tail dance". The announcer tried to explain it, but his explanation was a misch masch. After Grand Entry, four Northern Traditional dancers were chosen to be in the four directions within the circle. Four Southern hethushka songs were sung for them, and they kind of danced in their own quadrant of the circle. The four songs had tails, but there was no idea of real tail dancers coming off a bench to dance the tails. Some Northern Traditional dancers were dancing in place at one side of the circle, as though honoring the four guys. There were a number of straight dancers at the powwow, but I could not see that they were included in any of this. I was seated and to tell the truth, I was surprised and numbed by the whole thing. I hope it doesn't become an instant tradition.
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Old 05-30-2006, 03:32 PM   #24
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I had an honor dance that was tail dance at Pawnee in March. I'd never really heard of a tail dance but my grandpa wanted to do it the old way so instead of just a dance, it was tail dance.
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:19 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gledanh Zhinga
In the powwow scene, each tail dance that I have witnessed has been a little different, depending, I guess, on the committee's interpretation. It seems there is a lack of understanding or consensus about what tail dancers really do at their home society dances.

At the recent Black Eagle Powwow held at Santa Ana Star Casino, New Mexico, there was a pseudo, quasi something or another which the committee thought was a "tail dance". The announcer tried to explain it, but his explanation was a misch masch. After Grand Entry, four Northern Traditional dancers were chosen to be in the four directions within the circle. Four Southern hethushka songs were sung for them, and they kind of danced in their own quadrant of the circle. The four songs had tails, but there was no idea of real tail dancers coming off a bench to dance the tails. Some Northern Traditional dancers were dancing in place at one side of the circle, as though honoring the four guys. There were a number of straight dancers at the powwow, but I could not see that they were included in any of this. I was seated and to tell the truth, I was surprised and numbed by the whole thing. I hope it doesn't become an instant tradition.
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Old 07-05-2006, 05:48 PM   #26
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What do YOU think when a straight dancer lifts his tail stick after his contest?

What if the straight dancer was never a tail dancer? Should the drum honor his request?
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Old 07-05-2006, 06:47 PM   #27
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Growing up around inlonshka, I heard alot of head committee men stand up and talk about this. From what I gathered all those years is that only the head tail dancer is allowed to raise his stick, and he may do it when he feels "the ground becomes holy" and a good feeling is present.

When another dancer, who is not a designated tail dancer, dances on a tail, we consider it a mistake that needs to be corrected and paid for. I've seen this done by people, who couldn't make it back to their seat in time and by people who did it on purpose and they called it "stepping on the tail", whereas they had a brief small giveaway immediatley following the tail, to pay for the mistake.

As far as powwows go, I've seen it done, where a dancer raises his stick in hope of the drum to acknowledge him as a tail dancer, and I've seen where the drum did sing the tail and times when the singers didn't.

My perspective is that things like this shouldn't be taken lightly, there are rules and protocal involved. We wouldn't allow our ceremonial dances to be like a powwow, so why would we allow a powwow to be like a ceremonial dance? There are differences, we don't mix them, and it seems like only the ones brought up around the dances or powwows know the difference. Or at least they take the time to.

I only hope that people do more research and more respectful when it comes to these ways.
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Old 07-06-2006, 06:37 PM   #28
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I figure that there is a time and place for all things. If you are carrying a stick you should have earned it. If you earned it you know what it is for/ represents and how to use it as well as the costs. Therefore those with sticks should be recognized by the drum because they should know what they are doing and are prepared to take care of the obligations that come from that, regardless of where they are. But how many straight dancers have no idea? There goes my logic! Maybe the tail dancers should carry an article of clothing that is distinct, shows everyone their position and is only carried by... ohhh forget it!
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Old 07-07-2006, 02:38 PM   #29
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I figure that there is a time and place for all things. If you are carrying a stick you should have earned it. If you earned it you know what it is for/ represents and how to use it as well as the costs. Therefore those with sticks should be recognized by the drum because they should know what they are doing and are prepared to take care of the obligations that come from that, regardless of where they are...
This would be the ideal, unfortunately, there are so many Straight Dancers carrying Tail Sticks now-a-days without the background knowledge and/or the rights given to go with that honor, that it would be difficult for a Head Singers to differentiate.
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:59 PM   #30
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Interesting, CEM. I lived up in Wisconsin for a while and never heard about that. I talked to lots of old folks about straight dance and Southern Plains ways, but most had never heard it, much less seen it.

I've heard and know some of those songs, but never thought they related to a particular society. Do you know when and where they picked it up?


A buddy and I danced at the 1957 Nebraska Winnebago Powwow, and they sang many word songs that were like hethushka songs. We recorded some of them on one of those old, heavy reel-to-reel players. Not too much later, Clyde Warrior, Ponca, told me that he took an auto trip with a Hochunk guy, and they sang songs to each other. They started teasing each other, because many of the songs were the same tune, but different words. They were accusing each others tribe of "stealing songs". Clyde said they had a great time.
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Old 08-11-2007, 11:35 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gledanh Zhinga View Post
A buddy and I danced at the 1957 Nebraska Winnebago Powwow, and they sang many word songs that were like hethushka songs. We recorded some of them on one of those old, heavy reel-to-reel players. Not too much later, Clyde Warrior, Ponca, told me that he took an auto trip with a Hochunk guy, and they sang songs to each other. They started teasing each other, because many of the songs were the same tune, but different words. They were accusing each others tribe of "stealing songs". Clyde said they had a great time.
If I can remember, My Old man told me that the HoChunk's didnt have much as far as songs were concerned, and asked the Ponca for songs, So the Ponca gave some to them. Over the yrs singing with him we've heard singers such as the 'Dells
sing Songs very similar to Ponca songs maybe 1 or 2 words were changed......My old man would just shake his head..hmmmmm
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Old 08-12-2007, 11:17 AM   #32
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More "tail dance".

In New Mexico, during maybe the past four years, after the straight contest at powwows and after the numbers are taken in the lineup, the dancers may or may not get a tail sung. It depends on the drum, I guess. It surprised me the first time I heard it. The drum kinda' snuck up on us...AFTER LINEUP, and we were thinking we were heading for our chairs. The contestants are expected to dance the tail. The announcer explained that for the southern straight, it is appropriate to sing a tail.

Does this happen anywhere else?

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Old 01-02-2008, 06:41 PM   #33
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tail dancing

Tail dancers finish the song sung during ceremonials to show honor to the song. The tail dancer is an honored position because he is to dance his best for his district/tribe/group.

He zig zags and stays low while dancing hard as he can. His back is straight and not hunched to show respect. He looks at the sacred ground they are dancing on in search of game/enemy or the meaning of his life.
If he likes the song he can raise his stick and the singers will carry on.

this is usually only performed by the head tail dancer.
They say when the tail dancers are giving it their best it makes that I lon ska spirit come out and bless all who are there. And that is why the Osages keep this dance going for the past 125 years straight.


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Originally Posted by paraivo View Post
Thanks for the info on the Ho-Chunch Hayluska. A friend sent me pictures of the dance they held in the summer. I was glad to see this restarted in that area. Someday I hope to attend.
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Old 06-23-2013, 01:09 PM   #34
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Ponca hethuska distribution

The hethuska was given to California non Indians, and was called "California Hethuska." The dance as I understand, was given to the Comanche and directed by Melvin Kerchee, Sr. Kerchee gave it to the Texas non Indian group, now known as the "Lone Star War Dance Society." A Chicago non Indian group received permission to perform their version of hethuska; they are called "White Bear." A New England non Indian group had self-organized and were under the auspices of the American Indianist Society (AIS). Abe Conklin went East and gave sanction to their organization.
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Old 07-13-2013, 07:16 AM   #35
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Thanks for sharing the info guys!! there is so much to learn in this forum. I am a newbie here. hope to make some friends as well. casinoonlinechile.org

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Old 07-17-2013, 12:11 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by redknife_7 View Post
If I can remember, My Old man told me that the HoChunk's didnt have much as far as songs were concerned, and asked the Ponca for songs, So the Ponca gave some to them. Over the yrs singing with him we've heard singers such as the 'Dells
sing Songs very similar to Ponca songs maybe 1 or 2 words were changed......My old man would just shake his head..hmmmmm
The late Andy Thunder Cloud was responsible for learning these songs and transferring them to the HoChunk.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:22 PM   #37
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More to the story

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Originally Posted by WhoMe View Post
The late Andy Thunder Cloud was responsible for learning these songs and transferring them to the HoChunk.
In my 7-12-06 post, I talked about Clyde Warrior[RIP], Ponca, and a Hochunk man singing hethuska songs to each other. On July 13, 2013, I visited with Tony Isaacs of Indian House Recordings at the Taos Pueblo Powwow, and I mentioned this to him. He remembered it, because he roomed with Clyde when they were students in Norman, OK. Because Tony and I were both acquainted with Clyde, we remembered the story this way. The man Clyde was comparing songs with was Andy Thundercloud.

Clyde would sing a hethuska song and Andy would then sing it but with different words. Clyde would sing another and Andy would respond with the same, but with Hochunk words. Clyde was attempting to reach way back and pull forth a song that Andy wouldn't know, but to no avail. As they continued, Andy would always have a response.

Tony Isaacs says that he saw this Clyde/Andy singing back and forth in person, that it wasn't just hearsay.

This brings us to the idea that the Hochunk have not been given enough attention regarding the hethuska and its origins.

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Old 07-22-2013, 09:18 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gledanh Zhinga View Post
In my 7-12-06 post, I talked about Clyde Warrior[RIP], Ponca, and a Hochunk man singing hethuska songs to each other. On July 13, 2013, I visited with Tony Isaacs of Indian House Recordings at the Taos Pueblo Powwow, and I mentioned this to him. He remembered it, because he roomed with Clyde when they were students in Norman, OK. Because Tony and I were both acquainted with Clyde, we remembered the story this way. The man Clyde was comparing songs with was Andy Thundercloud.

Clyde would sing a hethuska song and Andy would then sing it but with different words. Clyde would sing another and Andy would respond with the same, but with Hochunk words. Clyde was attempting to reach way back and pull forth a song that Andy wouldn't know, but to no avail. As they continued, Andy would always have a response.

Tony Isaacs says that he saw this Clyde/Andy singing back and forth in person, that it wasn't just hearsay.

This brings us to the idea that the Hochunk have not been given enough attention regarding the hethuska and its origins.

Gledanh,

Yes. This is the same story that I heard, but only from Andy's side. I didn't know it was Clyde Warrior who was in this collaboration. So I concur with Tony that it wasn't pure hearsay.

This brings on a more important question as you suggest. Since the HoChunk are Heloshka practicing people, where did the songs that Andy knew come from? Were they Ponca and changed to Hochunk words or were some of them HoChunk???
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