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Forum Home - Go Back > Pow Wow Crafts > Beadwork Design Elements Own Design or Copy? Design Elements Own Design or Copy?

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Old 02-14-2017, 03:29 PM   #1
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Design Elements Own Design or Copy?

As there is nobody around me, I can ask face to face i am gonna to aks you here.

The question is, what is own design based on elementary design elements and what is to close to existing beadwork?

Looking through Sioux Quill and Beadwork Design page 68, 69, 73,74, 77, 84 show design elements which can be combined and altered to yield a bead pattern.

For example teepees and lightnings for belts or stripes.
I am very fond of all blue colors, red, yellow.

1 and 2 are identical patterns with color variation. I have more of that pattern in yet more color variations. 1 and 2 are modeled after the basic sketch for the lightning pattern of the above book.

For counting rows and columns I use excel and the technical quality of the examples could be better.

stripe_2.jpg

stripe_4.jpg

This one uses a teepee which in itself is a often used pattern. The green and blue tome are the grass and the sky.

belt_pattern.jpg

Do you regard such pattern as a copy or can you except, that so using a basic element although using out of the book that the design itself has come to my mind?

I am still searching how to imagienate (dream of) a design which is really mine and me and remember it, when awaking. That is something which I lost too long ago as a little boy.

I am on a quest about pattern for my gun case (flint lock), shooting bag, ball and belt pouches and mocassins though the unbeaded version seems better as an casual everyday wear. For mocs, I think I am on the right path to add a second (harder) sole which can be replaced when worn out.
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True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:35 PM   #2
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You will find that there are only so many ways to make a mountain design , tipi design , diamond , triangle , etc , etc... and only so many color combinations. You're in Germany , bead whatever you want.
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:59 PM   #3
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Thank you for your nice advise but that it is not as easy as it says.

I do not simply want do what I wish. Than there would be no need to ask here.

As I am wearing glasses all my life, in school I was provoked as owl. We have owls and I like owls. They are night birds which fits well to me. Asa little boy my Father told stories to get me asleep but Father started sleeping and the boy was half the night awake and joking.

Other birds over here are several sort of ravens (rare), hawks (rare) and masses of crows. The city resembles in its name and old spoofed syllable of the German equivalent for crow (Kre). Crow being "Krähe" and imitates the sound which the bird makes.

Designing beadwork which incorporates those birds may require applique stitch, I am not sure and that I have not done yet.

The floral designs, although some a very beautiful, are not mine. I am found of geometrical patterns and animals. May be that is a habit from being exposed much to mathematical patterns of the digital new age.
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“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
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Old 02-14-2017, 05:34 PM   #4
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OK, I've been biting my tongue. But...

First, do not assume all or even any Native person has read some particular book on beadwork. Most of us learn beading within our communities and families. We may never have looked at a book on beading.

That said, I have read this book.

Carrie Lyford's book takes elements out of designs on finished beadwork. For more than a few, you can match her sketches to pieces in museums. Using her design elements in some cases is copying. Plus, every Lakota fixated hobbist that I know has an early piece or two utilizing 'her' designs.

As for traditional designs. For the moment, I'll put aside that as a non-Indian your work is not within my people's traditions. Tradition has a much to do with the use and spirit of a pieces as the composition. Native people are modern people. We do not slavishly reproduce the patterns of the past. We may have family designs, which we lovingly pass down. But, we also are influenced by the world around us. (I am still toying with the beaded purse inspired by phyllotaxis and the fibonacci sequence.)

Perhaps you ought to look at what you're depicting in your work. I know some Lakota's who look askance at lightening bolts. And some Kiowas of my acquaintance would not take too kindly to your owls.

Tell me please, are you a re-enactor -- people who dress up and imitate life in past eras?
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:24 AM   #5
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Owls are the birds of withdom and knowledge and the ravens or crows are the eyes and scouts in my thinking.

The meaning of these birds has changed with christianity in order to override earlier believes. In other symbols of "savage" tribes, they have adopted to carry their message.

Well I have a Problem with the members of the ground Crew of the Roman church which I have knewn over the years except for one Monk.

The long answer to to your questions needs some days. To write that up in English will be difficult because those answers to your questions require to think in German and translate them into English. Will result in difficult understanding. Hopefully I get the long answer on Friday together. I am not retired yet and the real working life has become demanding time consuming hastily.
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True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 02-15-2017, 12:54 PM   #6
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There in lies your issue ! You are attempting to convert your way and your beliefs into ours and there is no comparison that will make sense to you. There are over 570 U.S. tribes and we all have our own belief system , although few are exactly the same.....in fact none are exactly the same !

Just what is your interest in our cultures ? Why would you wish to learn about our designs and color combinations ?
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

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Old 02-15-2017, 04:44 PM   #7
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Wenn man doch ein Indianer wäre, gleich bereit, und auf dem rennenden Pferde, schief in der Luft, immer wieder kurz erzitterte über dem zitternden Boden, bis man die Sporen ließ, denn es gab keine Sporen, bis man die Zügel wegwarf, denn es gab keine Zügel, und kaum das Land vor sich als glattgemähte Heide sah, schon ohne Pferdehals und Pferdekopf.

-Franz Kafka, 1913. (from Wikipedia)

Ich Bin Ein Indianer (article is in English)
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Old 02-16-2017, 02:09 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Wenn man doch ein Indianer wäre, gleich bereit, und auf dem rennenden Pferde, schief in der Luft, immer wieder kurz erzitterte über dem zitternden Boden, bis man die Sporen ließ, denn es gab keine Sporen, bis man die Zügel wegwarf, denn es gab keine Zügel, und kaum das Land vor sich als glattgemähte Heide sah, schon ohne Pferdehals und Pferdekopf.

-Franz Kafka, 1913. (from Wikipedia)

Ich Bin Ein Indianer (article is in English)
Ich bin kein Indianer.

Um Kafka zu zitieren sollte man Kafka in Deutsch interpretiren können. Das ist selbst unter uns mehr als umstritten. Kafka war Pflichtlektüre am Gymnasium und wir konnten uns nie einigen wie Kafka zu interpretieren ist. Die Meinung des Lehrers war dann per Ordre Mufti die am Ende "Richtige" Interpretation.

PS: War Sie nicht. Es war seine Meinung, nicht meine.
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True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 02-16-2017, 11:48 AM   #9
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An older colleague, who studied back when they made scientists learn German, had to read your post to me. (I distrust computer translation programs.)

I get in trouble every time I have anything to do with Kafka. I think it started some time in Humanities 380, when an entire class period blew up into an argument about whether Gregor had become an actual roach or was just really depressed and filled with self-loathing. Then Dr. C. took off on about how the German word "really" meant unclean and concept of ritual uncleanliness in Judaism. Before we knew it, we were deep in the weeds, comparing the conceptional/cultural baggage word for unclean used in Koine Greek (Septuagint), Hebrew (Tanakh), Aramaic (Roman Judea), and modern English and German.

I hadn't read the dang story. So, I spent the first part of the class thanking my lucky stars we hadn't had a quiz, then wishing we had, because the pain of failure would have had the advantage of brevity. Fifty-five non-refundable minutes of my life spent praying for the bell to ring and vowing never to take another literature class from the prof who taught Biblical languages.

However, your point about Kafka and German, is exactly the point Wardancer was trying to make. Language and art have so much cultural baggage, of which we need to be aware.

"The Wish To Be a Red Indian

If one were only an Indian, instantly alert, and on a racing horse, leaning against the wind, kept on quivering jerkily over the quivering ground, until one shed one’s spurs, for there needed no spurs, threw away the reins, for there needed no reins, and hardly saw that the land before one was smoothly shorn heath when horse’s neck and head would be already gone."

Franz Kafka, 1913. (The quote I dug my grave with... Uhmm. That I posted above.)

I read the English translation of Kafka's "The Wish To Be a Red Indian" and I see a reductionist, romantic fantasy about Native people. But, I can see there is some element there that speaks to some aspect of the German experience in 1913. But being an American and a Native woman, I don't understand it.

Your experiences with our cultures will be the same.
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:58 PM   #10
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If you ever see a German powwow, or a German powwow dancer, or a German singer, or a German drum group...do you see them as the true Indigenous people of Turtle Island?
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:06 AM   #11
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This is going to be a long post. My English is not good enough to express my thought as clear as necessary.

The culture, spirit or religion is connected with emotions and that lets me think In German and will never come out as good English and will result in new misunderstanding. Makes my heart sick.

Talking about religion or spirit I have always regarded as dangerous. We have our experience since the 30 years war. In the name of religion or god every crime has up to day been justified.

Ol Chemical your idea of quoting Kafka making me to answer in German was a genius idea. I never understood Kafka. We did “The Jury”.

Your estimation that I will have the same problem with your culture as you with mine is simply true. I could live the rest of my live within your nation but would never understand it beyond a certain point. I requires to be a child living and educated up from the earliest moment within your culture.

I may understand certain issues but not comprehend them and there might be other issues which I do not understand but might comprehend.

Some things are very special relativ and some things are very relative special (Bad translation of a German joke on Einsteins Relativitätstheorie)

I did not assume that many native person have read that book. I hoped for one who would dare to answer. You did answer and for that thank you very much to you. Your peoples way of learning is obviously impossible in my situation. I can learn it only by books. And that is one dimensional and will lack peoples emotion.
Maybe more qualified native Americans should write books to reach those who can learn only by reading books and use them as a tool for education. Most books on native Americans seems to be written by white people and lack vital information.

As to Carrie Lyfords book, the pages 111 to 116 are obviously patterns from original pieces. The heading already says it.

But I assume that some other elements likewise are taken completely from a real historic piece. Page 109 and 110 look so and I assume that the pattern from side 110 might be from a pipe bag.

Pages 103 through 108 might be single element from historic piece. Which are from real pieces? That is a reason why I asked.

I assume that patterns in the other books are not better.
What I am missing in this book as well as in others is an explanation to the meaning ore in your words the use and spirit of a composition. A book written by a native person might overcome those missing dimension ore faults in the existing books and again can teach other people. If such a book exists, that should be be easy to find. And that would clarify what not to use.

Why do CrazCrow, Wandering Bull and the other trading posts sells such books instead of getting them enhanced um the above vital information? And they sell many other goods as well. Some is made in China, some is made in Czech, some is made in Germany and some is native American. I have seen War Shirts, pipe bags, pipes, headdresses.

Wardancer demands what my interest is. Would he answer me, if I would demand an answer from him why he uses something from our culture?

Let me quote Ohiyesa from page 59, the starting page of his chapter about Rain in the Face.

“It had been my experience that you cannot induce an Indian to tell a story, or even his own name, by asking him directly. Friend, I said, even if a man is on hot trail, he stops for a smoke! ...”

I will tell you two stories of mine.

I have searched for my ancestors because I wanted to know where I come from and were I am. I come back until 1790 within the direct line of the family. One information may have been willingly falsified on the official birth records that there is a father named who was not the biological father.

My grand uncle Rudolf was the only male from the male side of the family who ever was a soldier in more than 200 years. He died at the of World War II from sickness far from home and alone and is buried there. We have no photo, not a single item from him left because my great grandmother in here grieve about losing that son burned everything from him. My mother once told me, long after grandfather had died, that he had said her that I look like Rudolf.

As said in a post elsewhere in another thread, I live in a region which was a crossed by people and war parties from north to south and west to east and back for thousands of years. We once belonged to the Roman Empire, we have seen the Vikings coming upriver, we have seen the French under Napoleon and up to 1750 we belonged to the Low Countries and were given away to Prussia.

In World War II my grand and grand grand uncles fought in the German, the Polish, the Dutch, the French and the Russian Army. Figuratively they tried to kill each other. That makes my heart sick and tired.

I have due to my families history no need for war at all but if necessary I stand up according to sis vis pacem para bellum for my family.

What I am ? Russian, French, Dutch, Polish or German?

As a German please never call me a Bavarian or a Badenser, a Württemberger, a Saxon, a Franke and lot of more former tribes which lived in ancient times in what is called Germany. I am none of that.

If a hear the vocal songs of the cossacks, my heart is pleased. I like that songs. If I hear some Prussian march music my heart is with it, especially with Prussians Gloria but it must be played the old way not the f..g political correct way of today.

I accept what my heart says, you have interest in. I may search for rational reason if asked for example why do like shooting muzzleloader or the bow. I like it not for rational reasons but because my heart says I like it and I accept it as given.

I take part in muzzleloader competition shooting. The rules prohibit any traditional clothing. (Modern leather shooting jacket could be regarded as traditional clothing because in its today form we use it already 60 years. That could make it traditional if you want to.)

I like my short flint lock rifle. It is a model which is a rifle made from German rifle smiths in America and has been used by the mountain man, fur trader and native Americans. It should be carried in a rifle case mad of buckskin and that should be beaded in a way a white trader might have traded from a tribe. Ball bags and other bags for all the things needed for competition shooting should match the rifle case. At least that is not prohibited by the rules.

I have gone to workshops on medival crafts and stone age on different levels of difficulty. Making Turn shoes (part of the technique is similar to making moccasins), long bow, cross bow, sewing shirts (tunika) and under trousers. Flint stone arrow heads, stone age zippo.

Turn shoes and moccasins use very similar techniques but are off different making. And making flint stone arrow heads, do you think your native American stone arrow heads are so much different from those, we find over here five thousand years old or that the technique to make them is very different?

The geometrical beadwork is simply beautiful. It is a great craft. It requires to concentrate on what you are doing, give you joy in just doing it, give you a good feeling accomplishing a beautiful piece. It is no difficulty to do beadwork with non native patterns but I would look at it as ignoring its heritage of native American tradition and that be being dishonorable.

What do I want to depict?

Myself admiring your people and their craftsmanship in beadwork with elements which I can understand and comprehend, which as a composition is not a copy of a historic or contemporary family piece, is not offending and yet does not neglect its binding to its historic roots. What I white trader might have traded from your people.

I do not go to German pow wows. I may never make the journey into the US and by miracle if I would do, it would be the journey of my life and much too short. I would like visit a real native American pow wow. I would suffice to watch, listen, learn and keep my mouth shut. May be buy something made by native Americans.

May be I do not belong in this place and should leave it to you.
Live long and may piece with you all the time.
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Those who do know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
If you ever see a German powwow, or a German powwow dancer, or a German singer, or a German drum group...do you see them as the true Indigenous people of Turtle Island?
No.
__________________
Those who do know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:47 PM   #13
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This is going to be a long post. My English is not good enough to express my thought as clear as necessary.

The culture, spirit or religion is connected with emotions and that lets me think In German and will never come out as good English and will result in new misunderstanding. Makes my heart sick. Talking about religion or spirit I have always regarded as dangerous. We have our experience since the 30 years war. In the name of religion or god every crime has up to day been justified.

Ol Chemist your idea of quoting Kafka making me to answer in German was a genius idea. I never understood Kafka. We did “The Jury”.

Your estimation that I will have the same problem with your culture as you with mine is simply true. I could live the rest of my live within your nation but would never understand it beyond a certain point. I requires to be a child living and educated up from the earliest moment within your culture.

I may understand certain issues but not comprehend them and their might be other issues which I do not understand but might comprehend. Some things are very special relativ and some things are very relative special (Bad translaton of a German joke on Einsteins Relativitätstheorie)

I did not assume that many native person have read that book. I hoped for one who would dare to answer. You did answer and for that thank you very much to you. Your peoples way of learning is obviously impossible in my situation. I can learn it only by books.

That is one dimensional and will lack peoples emotion.
Maybe more qualified native Americans should write books to reach those who can learn only by reading books and use them as a tool for education. Most books on native Americans seems to be written by white people and lack vital information.

As to Carrie Lyfords book, the pages 111 to 116 are obviously patterns from original pieces. The heading already says it. But I assume that some other elements likewise are taken completely from a real historic piece. Page 109 and 110 look so and I assume that the pattern from side 110 might be from a pipe bag. Pages 103 through 108 might be single element from historic piece. Which are from real pieces? That is a reason why I asked. I assume that patterns in the other books are not better.

What I am missing in this book as well as in others is an explanation to the meaning ore in your words the use and spirit of a composition. A book written by a native person might overcome those missing dimension ore faults in the existing books and again can teach other people. If such a book exists, that should be easy to find. And that would clarify what not to use.

Why do CrazyCrow, Wandering Bull and the other trading posts sells such books instead of getting them enhanced for the above vital information? And they sell many other goods as well. Some is made in China, some is made in Czech, some is made in Germany and some is native American. I have seen War Shirts, pipe bags, pipes, headdresses offered by what seems to be native American. A war shirt must be earned.

Wardancer demands what my interest is. Would he answer me, if I would demand an answer from him why he uses something from our culture? Why adopted so many whites in the beginning (1700) to the Indian way of life?

Let me quote Ohiyesa from page 59, the starting page of his chapter about Rain in the Face.

“It had been my experience that you cannot induce an Indian to tell a story, or even his own name, by asking him directly. Friend, I said, even if a man is on hot trail, he stops for a smoke! ...”

I will tell you two stories of mine.
I have searched for my ancestors because I wanted to know where I come from and were I am. I come back until 1790 within the direct line of the family. One information may have been willingly falsified on the official birth records that there is a father named who was not the biological father.

My grand uncle Rudolf was the only male from the male side of the family who ever was a soldier in more than 200 years. He died at the of World War II from sickness far from home and alone and is buried there. We have no photo, not a single item from him left because my great grandmother in here grieve about losing that son burned everything from him. My mother once told me, long after grandfather had died, that he had said her that I look like Rudolf.

As said in a post elsewhere in another thread, I live in a region which was a crossed by people and war parties form north to south and west to east and back for thousands of years. We once belonged to the Roman Empire, we have seen the Vikings coming upriver, we have seen the French under Napoleon and up to 1750 we belonged to the Low Countries.

In World War II my grand and grand grand uncle fought in the German, the Polish, the Dutch, the French and the Russian Army. Figuratively they tried to kill each other. That makes my heart sick and tired. What I am ? Russian, French, Dutch, Polish or German? As a German please never call me a Bavarian or a Badenser, a Württemberger, a Saxon, a Franke and lot of more former tribes which lived in ancient times in what is called Germany.

I have due to my families history no need for war at all but I stand up according to sis vis pacem para bellum for my family.

If a hear the vocal songs of the cossacks, my heart is pleased. If a here some Prussian march music my heart is with it, especially with Prussians Gloria but it must be played the old way not the f..g political correct way of today. I accept what my heart says it is beautiful, you have interest in. I may search for rational reason if asked for example why do like shooting muzzleloader or the bow. I like it not for rational reasons but because my heart says I like it and I accept it as given.

I take part in muzzleloader competition shooting. The rules prohibit any traditional clothing. (Modern leather shooting jacket could be regarded as traditional clothing because in its today form we use it already 60 years. That could make it traditional if you want to.) I like my short flint lock rifle. It is a model which is a rifle made from German rifle smiths in America and has been used by the mountain man, fur trader and native Americans. It should be carried in a rifle case mad of buckskin and that should be beaded in a way a white trader might have traded from a tribe. Ball bags and other bags for all the things needed for competition shooting should match the rifle case. At least that is not prohibited by the rules.

I have gone to workshops on medival crafts and stone age on different levels of difficulty. Making Turn shoes (part of the technique is similar to making moccasins), long bow, cross bow, sewing shirts (tunika) and under trousers. Flint stone arrow heads, stone age zippo.

Turn shoes and moccasins use very similar techniques but are off different making. And making flint stone arrow heads, do you think your native American stone arrow heads are so much different from those, we find over here five thousand years old or that the technique to make them is very different?

The geometrical beadwork is simply beautiful. It is a great craft. It requires to concentrate on what you are doing, give you joy in just doing it, give you a good feeling accomplishing a beautiful piece. It is no difficulty to do beadwork with non native patterns but I would look at it as ignoring its heritage of native American tradition and that be being dishonorable.

What do I want to depict?
Myself admiring your people and their craftsmanship in beadwork with elements which I can understand and comprehend, which as a composition is not a copy of a historic or contemporary family piece, is not offending and yet does not neglect its binding to its historic roots. What I white trader might have traded from your people .

I do not go to German pow wows. I may never make the journey into the US and by miracle if I would do, it would be the journey of my life and much too short. I would like visit a real native American pow wow. I would suffice to watch, listen to learn and keep my mouth shut if.

May be I do not belong in this place but should leave it to you.
Live long and may piece with you all your time.
__________________
Those who do know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Just what is your interest in our cultures ? Why would you wish to learn about our designs and color combinations ?
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Originally Posted by Broken Arrow View Post
This is going to be a long post. My English is not good enough to express my thought as clear as necessary.

The culture, spirit or religion is connected with emotions and that lets me think In German and will never come out as good English and will result in new misunderstanding. Makes my heart sick. Talking about religion or spirit I have always regarded as dangerous. We have our experience since the 30 years war. In the name of religion or god every crime has up to day been justified.

Ol Chemist your idea of quoting Kafka making me to answer in German was a genius idea. I never understood Kafka. We did “The Jury”.

Your estimation that I will have the same problem with your culture as you with mine is simply true. I could live the rest of my live within your nation but would never understand it beyond a certain point. I requires to be a child living and educated up from the earliest moment within your culture.

I may understand certain issues but not comprehend them and their might be other issues which I do not understand but might comprehend. Some things are very special relativ and some things are very relative special (Bad translaton of a German joke on Einsteins Relativitätstheorie)

I did not assume that many native person have read that book. I hoped for one who would dare to answer. You did answer and for that thank you very much to you. Your peoples way of learning is obviously impossible in my situation. I can learn it only by books.

That is one dimensional and will lack peoples emotion.
Maybe more qualified native Americans should write books to reach those who can learn only by reading books and use them as a tool for education. Most books on native Americans seems to be written by white people and lack vital information.


As to Carrie Lyfords book, the pages 111 to 116 are obviously patterns from original pieces. The heading already says it. But I assume that some other elements likewise are taken completely from a real historic piece. Page 109 and 110 look so and I assume that the pattern from side 110 might be from a pipe bag. Pages 103 through 108 might be single element from historic piece. Which are from real pieces? That is a reason why I asked. I assume that patterns in the other books are not better.

What I am missing in this book as well as in others is an explanation to the meaning ore in your words the use and spirit of a composition. A book written by a native person might overcome those missing dimension ore faults in the existing books and again can teach other people. If such a book exists, that should be easy to find. And that would clarify what not to use.

Why do CrazyCrow, Wandering Bull and the other trading posts sells such books instead of getting them enhanced for the above vital information? And they sell many other goods as well. Some is made in China, some is made in Czech, some is made in Germany and some is native American. I have seen War Shirts, pipe bags, pipes, headdresses offered by what seems to be native American. A war shirt must be earned.

Wardancer demands what my interest is. Would he answer me, if I would demand an answer from him why he uses something from our culture? Why adopted so many whites in the beginning (1700) to the Indian way of life?

Let me quote Ohiyesa from page 59, the starting page of his chapter about Rain in the Face.

“It had been my experience that you cannot induce an Indian to tell a story, or even his own name, by asking him directly. Friend, I said, even if a man is on hot trail, he stops for a smoke! ...”

I will tell you two stories of mine.
I have searched for my ancestors because I wanted to know where I come from and were I am. I come back until 1790 within the direct line of the family. One information may have been willingly falsified on the official birth records that there is a father named who was not the biological father.

My grand uncle Rudolf was the only male from the male side of the family who ever was a soldier in more than 200 years. He died at the of World War II from sickness far from home and alone and is buried there. We have no photo, not a single item from him left because my great grandmother in here grieve about losing that son burned everything from him. My mother once told me, long after grandfather had died, that he had said her that I look like Rudolf.

As said in a post elsewhere in another thread, I live in a region which was a crossed by people and war parties form north to south and west to east and back for thousands of years. We once belonged to the Roman Empire, we have seen the Vikings coming upriver, we have seen the French under Napoleon and up to 1750 we belonged to the Low Countries.

In World War II my grand and grand grand uncle fought in the German, the Polish, the Dutch, the French and the Russian Army. Figuratively they tried to kill each other. That makes my heart sick and tired. What I am ? Russian, French, Dutch, Polish or German? As a German please never call me a Bavarian or a Badenser, a Württemberger, a Saxon, a Franke and lot of more former tribes which lived in ancient times in what is called Germany.

I have due to my families history no need for war at all but I stand up according to sis vis pacem para bellum for my family.

If a hear the vocal songs of the cossacks, my heart is pleased. If a here some Prussian march music my heart is with it, especially with Prussians Gloria but it must be played the old way not the f..g political correct way of today. I accept what my heart says it is beautiful, you have interest in. I may search for rational reason if asked for example why do like shooting muzzleloader or the bow. I like it not for rational reasons but because my heart says I like it and I accept it as given.

I take part in muzzleloader competition shooting. The rules prohibit any traditional clothing. (Modern leather shooting jacket could be regarded as traditional clothing because in its today form we use it already 60 years. That could make it traditional if you want to.) I like my short flint lock rifle. It is a model which is a rifle made from German rifle smiths in America and has been used by the mountain man, fur trader and native Americans. It should be carried in a rifle case mad of buckskin and that should be beaded in a way a white trader might have traded from a tribe. Ball bags and other bags for all the things needed for competition shooting should match the rifle case. At least that is not prohibited by the rules.

I have gone to workshops on medival crafts and stone age on different levels of difficulty. Making Turn shoes (part of the technique is similar to making moccasins), long bow, cross bow, sewing shirts (tunika) and under trousers. Flint stone arrow heads, stone age zippo.

Turn shoes and moccasins use very similar techniques but are off different making. And making flint stone arrow heads, do you think your native American stone arrow heads are so much different from those, we find over here five thousand years old or that the technique to make them is very different?

The geometrical beadwork is simply beautiful. It is a great craft. It requires to concentrate on what you are doing, give you joy in just doing it, give you a good feeling accomplishing a beautiful piece. It is no difficulty to do beadwork with non native patterns but I would look at it as ignoring its heritage of native American tradition and that be being dishonorable.

What do I want to depict?
Myself admiring your people and their craftsmanship in beadwork with elements which I can understand and comprehend, which as a composition is not a copy of a historic or contemporary family piece, is not offending and yet does not neglect its binding to its historic roots. What I white trader might have traded from your people .

I do not go to German pow wows. I may never make the journey into the US and by miracle if I would do, it would be the journey of my life and much too short. I would like visit a real native American pow wow. I would suffice to watch, listen to learn and keep my mouth shut if.

May be I do not belong in this place but should leave it to you.
Live long and may piece with you all your time.

First thing is misunderstanding my question ! I do not "Demand" anything. I was merely curious as to your motivation. There are thousands and thousands of folk who use our cultures as a hobby and we do get irritated at SOME simply because of the stereotypical crap that they come up with in a feeble attempt at copying or imitating some portion of what they perceive as "Indian Ways".

Over here there are those who do re-enactments and rendezvous. Typically pre 1840 time period in clothing and accoutrements. I have attended a few and used to shoot a flintlock rifle and pistol. Fun , but not entirely accurate !

You should attend a German powwow. It might be very interesting ! Some of their activities are quite accurate in many ways. I find some of it rather humorous how they try so hard to be ....us !

You should hang around here and ask questions ! We've been nice and haven't beat up up too bad. We have some very educated and some like me , who are not overly educated. We are not all full-bloods , half-bloods or even quarter-bloods ! Some are really thin bloods and some hobbiests. There is a good mix.
__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

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Old 02-17-2017, 10:13 PM   #15
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I am going to sound harsh. Some of what I's going to say is harsh. But, if I didn't want to try to communicate, I won't be writing long posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken Arrow View Post
.. Some things are very special relativ and some things are very relative special (Bad translaton of a German joke on Einsteins Relativitätstheorie)
I recognized it. You may have figured out that I'm a physical chemist. I tell bad science jokes, too.


Heisenberg and Schrödinger are driving in a car and they get pulled over. The police officer asks: "Do you know how fast you were going?"

Heisenberg says, "Well, not really, but I can tell you exactly where I was."

The officer thinks that this peculiar response is grounds for a search. He finds a dead cat in the trunk and he says: "Do you know that there's a dead cat in your trunk?"

Schrödinger replies, "Well, I do now!"


Good to see you have a sense of humor. It will get you far in Indian Country. We tease hard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken Arrow View Post
Maybe more qualified native Americans should write books to reach those who can learn only by reading books and use them as a tool for education. Most books on native Americans seems to be written by white people and lack vital information.
There are many books written by Native peoples.

Here we have a collision of worldviews. Our histories and cultures are by and large not in books, I'll exclude the Cherokee for the moment, since they developed and utilized their own system of writing within their own language and culture, and for their own uses. Our cultures by and large have very different modes of transmission of knowledge. We have different ideas about intellectual property. This ideas are rooted in our understandings of how the universe works.

Many teachings within our cultures are restricted to those within our culture and maybe only those who are qualified to get them. And there is no hard, bright line separating sacred and secular in many of our cultures. So, things which might seem to have no religious/spiritual component in the western world, do in ours. These things we guard jealously.

Think about your culture. Is there a book telling you how to make authentic German Scherenschnitte or Bergmannsfigur? I could make a miner's angel. I'm a good enough craftsman. I could make an exact replica of one my mother's Volga German immigrant neighbors gave her for Christmas when she was a child. But it would lack the creative spark of the real thing. No book could teach to me create this item in its cultural context.

This isn't about race. It's about being part of a community and tradition. I know many a non-Indian family member who makes regalia for their Native relative. What they make, I consider authentic. For they are creating it within the cultural context and kinship connections that animate Native life.

I know hobs, who do meticulous research. The read books, travel to distant museums, study pictures. They produce exquisitely crafted pieces. They get antique beads. They brain tan. They find exactly the right species of wood to smoke the hides. They find exact color matches for ancient earth pigments. But their pieces are dead.

I have two parfleche bags hanging in the dining room. One is painstakingly pounded elk rawhide. With rabbit skin glue fixed, earth paint designs. The techniques used to produce it, were absolutely faithful to 18th century Cheyenne technology. It is a magnificent piece. The other is a tiny bag. Made with somewhat shiny, Tandy Leather cow rawhide. It's painted with modern acrylics. The color blocks are edged with black lines drawn by a Sharpie marker. It was made by a Cheyenne teenager, who was trying to earn money for a car.

White people love the large elk hide bag. It fits their idea of "Indian" art. Indian people are drawn to the small bag and ignore the other. They sense the young girl, a link in a chain of artists who used the materials at hand. The spirit of her bag is true to the form and purpose of these bags.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken Arrow View Post
What I am missing in this book as well as in others is an explanation to the meaning ore in your words the use and spirit of a composition. A book written by a native person might overcome those missing dimension ore faults in the existing books and again can teach other people. If such a book exists, that should be easy to find. And that would clarify what not to use.

Why do CrazyCrow, Wandering Bull and the other trading posts sells such books instead of getting them enhanced for the above vital information?
Maybe our art and our religion are something we're not eager to share. I've heard it said: "The white man is like a raccoon. What he can't eat or tear up, he defecates on." After everything that has happened to our peoples, give us a reason we should be willing to teach the colonizer's children how to make our art forms?

Now, that said many of us are more accommodating. I'm a softie. I've taught non-Indians who've showed up on my porch and had the right attitude. Some even survived :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken Arrow View Post
Wardancer demands what my interest is. Would he answer me, if I would demand an answer from him why he uses something from our culture? Why adopted so many whites in the beginning (1700) to the Indian way of life?
Do you have any idea how tired we get of hearing how if we don't want to share the precious remains of our cultures that we should give up jeans, horses, pickups and antibiotics?

More collision of worldviews.

One: We weren't given a choice about participating in the dominant culture. (In English "dominant culture" is a sociological term that refers the mainstream Euro-American institutions, manners and mores.) We live utterly surrounded. In many cases, our traditional economies are destroyed. Should we let our children starve to remian "pure"?

Two: Most of the items that I suspect you would point Wardancer's using are mass produced commodities. He is not asking to be given the means of making these items -- i.e. he's buying and using an iPhone not making one.

Having a long term relationship with my patent attorney, I can tell you that the power of the legal system of every western country acts to restrict and punish unauthorized use of intellectual property. You have patent, copyright, and trade secret laws. We don't. And our intellectual property is plundered with little regard. Our legal and moral frameworks do not have standing in your systems.

Why did we adopt whites? Because humans form bonds. Kinship is what makes us civilized. People make friends, people form alliances, people fall into love and lust. The difference in those relationships is we choose. We are the gatekeepers of our families and communities, not you.

If you understand that, then there is a chance for us to get along.
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:45 AM   #16
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Good to see you have a sense of humor. It will get you far in Indian Country. We tease hard.



Our histories and cultures are by and large not in books, I'll exclude the Cherokee for the moment, since they developed and utilized their own system of writing within their own language and culture, and for their own uses. Our cultures by and large have very different modes of transmission of knowledge. We have different ideas about intellectual property. This ideas are rooted in our understandings of how the universe works.

Many teachings within our cultures are restricted to those within our culture and maybe only those who are qualified to get them. And there is no hard, bright line separating sacred and secular in many of our cultures. So, things which might seem to have no religious/spiritual component in the western world, do in ours. These things we guard jealously.

Think about your culture. Is there a book telling you how to make authentic German Scherenschnitte or Bergmannsfigur? I could make a miner's angel. I'm a good enough craftsman. I could make an exact replica of one my mother's Volga German immigrant neighbors gave her for Christmas when she was a child. But it would lack the creative spark of the real thing. No book could teach to me create this item in its cultural context.

This isn't about race. It's about being part of a community and tradition. I know many a non-Indian family member who makes regalia for their Native relative. What they make, I consider authentic. For they are creating it within the cultural context and kinship connections that animate Native life.

I know hobs, who do meticulous research. The read books, travel to distant museums, study pictures. They produce exquisitely crafted pieces. They get antique beads. They brain tan. They find exactly the right species of wood to smoke the hides. They find exact color matches for ancient earth pigments. But their pieces are dead.

I have two parfleche bags hanging in the dining room. One is painstakingly pounded elk rawhide. With rabbit skin glue fixed, earth paint designs. The techniques used to produce it, were absolutely faithful to 18th century Cheyenne technology. It is a magnificent piece. The other is a tiny bag. Made with somewhat shiny, Tandy Leather cow rawhide. It's painted with modern acrylics. The color blocks are edged with black lines drawn by a Sharpie marker. It was made by a Cheyenne teenager, who was trying to earn money for a car.

White people love the large elk hide bag. It fits their idea of "Indian" art. Indian people are drawn to the small bag and ignore the other. They sense the young girl, a link in a chain of artists who used the materials at hand. The spirit of her bag is true to the form and purpose of these bags.




Maybe our art and our religion are something we're not eager to share. I've heard it said: "The white man is like a raccoon. What he can't eat or tear up, he defecates on." After everything that has happened to our peoples, give us a reason we should be willing to teach the colonizer's children how to make our art forms?

Now, that said many of us are more accommodating. I'm a softie. I've taught non-Indians who've showed up on my porch and had the right attitude. Some even survived :)



Do you have any idea how tired we get of hearing how if we don't want to share the precious remains of our cultures that we should give up jeans, horses, pickups and antibiotics?

More collision of worldviews.

One: We weren't given a choice about participating in the dominant culture. (In English "dominant culture" is a sociological term that refers the mainstream Euro-American institutions, manners and mores.) We live utterly surrounded. In many cases, our traditional economies are destroyed. Should we let our children starve to remian "pure"?

Two: Most of the items that I suspect you would point Wardancer's using are mass produced commodities. He is not asking to be given the means of making these items -- i.e. he's buying and using an iPhone not making one.

Having a long term relationship with my patent attorney, I can tell you that the power of the legal system of every western country acts to restrict and punish unauthorized use of intellectual property. You have patent, copyright, and trade secret laws. We don't. And our intellectual property is plundered with little regard. Our legal and moral frameworks do not have standing in your systems.

Why did we adopt whites? Because humans form bonds. Kinship is what makes us civilized. People make friends, people form alliances, people fall into love and lust. The difference in those relationships is we choose. We are the gatekeepers of our families and communities, not you.

If you understand that, then there is a chance for us to get along.
As usual OlC has explained this nicely. I just would like to re-state a few things !

Our humor , even sarcastic humor , is probably one of the best indicators we have , of your attitude !

Much of what I was taught ISN'T in a book. My mentors sat me down and told me stories. Then we discussed it so that I absolutely knew the story and that was how it was to be ! Period ! I say Mentors in plural form as I was fortunate to have several Elders that decided I was worth their effort !

OlC's story of the hobs remind me of one ! I had an acquaintance , in Austin I met years ago. These were really nice folks , cared deeply about "Native Culture" . Husband and wife , white as white gets ! Husband is building an outfit to start dancing. Had a set of cuffs on the table , one done and the other started. He showed them to me and asked my opinion. They were beautiful , the beadwork was perfect......too perfect. I told him they looked awesome and as he pressed for more opinion I just told him they looked too good. As perfect as they were , they did not look like ndn beadwork. Typical response , he got mad and now were no longer acquaintances ! I have other non-ndn friends that dance without any issues.I have an adopted brother that dances with eagle bustle and roach feathers and is accepted anywhere we go ! Attitude ! One must understand where one fits within the community.

The last statement she makes is spot on ! It is our choice who we share with and how much we share !
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:58 AM   #17
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Wardancer demands what my interest is. Would he answer me, if I would demand an answer from him why he uses something from our culture? Why adopted so many whites in the beginning (1700) to the Indian way of life?
I'll answer that : It's 2017 , not 1700 or even 1840 ! I was raised by the white side of my family. Didn't learn anything about my Cheyenne side until I was in my early 20s. I'm still learning. Every single time I return to the areas my Mentors live , I learn more. I'm over 60 now , and still I learn. I'm at home about any powwow I go to , and most gatherings.I feel uncomfortable when I get around my Elders and the Chiefs , even though several are close family. I'm always thinking "I'm gonna mess up" and knowing that if and when I do , those old ones are gonna laugh at me from then on !Luckily I haven't embarrassed myself in quite a while !

I live in a house , I watch tv , we have internet , eat fast food. It's 2017
__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 02-18-2017, 05:25 PM   #18
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QUOTE=OLChemist;1630957]I am going to sound harsh. Some of what I's going to say is harsh. But, if I didn't want to try to communicate, I won't be writing long posts.

You may have figured out that I'm a physical chemist. I thought so although the hint is only a small one. I tell bad science jokes, too.


Heisenberg and Schrödinger are driving in a car and they get pulled over. The police officer asks: "Do you know how fast you were going?"

Heisenberg says, "Well, not really, but I can tell you exactly where I was."

The officer thinks that this peculiar response is grounds for a search. He finds a dead cat in the trunk and he says: "Do you know that there's a dead cat in your trunk?"

Schrödinger replies, "Well, I do now!"


Good to see you have a sense of humor. It will get you far in Indian Country. We tease hard.


I have another one.

Antenna theory in actual practise is:

a) an exact science,

b) Black Magic performed in a backroom by people who never have heard of Maxwell’s equations,

c) performed by a group of engineers who believe they understood Maxwell’s equations and pray to strange gods to help them to solve the mystery of the state of the art.





There are many books written by Native peoples.

Here we have a collision of worldviews. Our histories and cultures are by and large not in books.

Then learning will be limited and it seems I can not change it.


So, things which might seem to have no religious/spiritual component in the western world, do in ours.

This becomes ever more obvious.

Think about your culture. Is there a book telling you how to make authentic German Scherenschnitte or Bergmannsfigur?

On Scherenschnitte I do not know. On the art of the Zimmerman there is a really good one. You need luck to find one. There have never been many and a good number have been destroyed.By chance I know, where I will find a lot of books on mathematics you will never find by a search in the public library system. Applies to physics, electrical engineering, etc too.


This isn't about race. It's about being part of a community and tradition. I know many a non-Indian family member who makes regalia for their Native relative. What they make, I consider authentic. For they are creating it within the cultural context and kinship connections that animate Native life.

That I can understand and comprehend.

White people love the large elk hide bag. It fits their idea of "Indian" art. Indian people are drawn to the small bag and ignore the other. They sense the young girl, a link in a chain of artists who used the materials at hand. The spirit of her bag is true to the form and purpose of these bags.


Now, that said many of us are more accommodating. I'm a softie. I've taught non-Indians who've showed up on my porch and had the right attitude. Some even survived :)



Do you have any idea how tired we get of hearing how if we don't want to share the precious remains of our cultures that we should give up jeans, horses, pickups and antibiotics?

I think I have an idea and an expression which I should not write.


More collision of worldviews.

One: We weren't given a choice about participating in the dominant culture. (In English "dominant culture" is a sociological term that refers the mainstream Euro-American institutions, manners and mores.) We live utterly surrounded. In many cases, our traditional economies are destroyed. Should we let our children starve to remian "pure"?

No.

As to those who surround you, I better do not write what I think, not because of how you might react.



Wardancer has answered and I draw my hat.

Having a long term relationship with my patent attorney, I can tell you that the power of the legal system of every western country acts to restrict and punish unauthorized use of intellectual property. You have patent, copyright, and trade secret laws. We don't. And our intellectual property is plundered with little regard. Our legal and moral frameworks do not have standing in your systems.

That isn't right and should not be. But I have had some knowledge of how thinks work.


Why did we adopt whites? Because humans form bonds. Kinship is what makes us civilized. People make friends, people form alliances, people fall into love and lust. The difference in those relationships is we choose. We are the gatekeepers of our families and communities, not you.

I can't read as fast as necessary to cover so much. I read Peter Farb Man's rise to civilization, chapter 15. I have only a German translation not the English original. He writes about white people in the 1790 who gave up there culture and adopted the native american way. He also wrote that captured whites who had been adopted did not wish to return into white society. Your sytem of culture and family must(is) (be) very convincing.


If you understand that, then there is a chance for us to get along.[/QUOTE]

You do not sound harsh. You sound reasonable.
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Those who do know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 02-19-2017, 01:15 PM   #19
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First thing is misunderstanding my question ! I do not "Demand" anything.

Not fully comprehend your question. Thinking German and reading and writing English is a guarantee to get some things wrong and here the more it seems.


Over here there are those who do re-enactments and rendezvous. Typically pre 1840 time period in clothing and accoutrements. I have attended a few and used to shoot a flintlock rifle and pistol. Fun , but not entirely accurate !

It depends a little on the rifle and the pistol, but the error is behind the rifle and the pistols. Seems somehow familiar.

You should attend a German powwow. It might be very interesting ! Some of their activities are quite accurate in many ways. I find some of it rather humorous how they try so hard to be ....us !

May be I should do but i have heard a story which let me think otherwise.


You should hang around here and ask questions ! We've been nice and haven't beat up up too bad. We have some very educated and some like me , who are not overly educated. We are not all full-bloods , half-bloods or even quarter-bloods ! Some are really thin bloods and some hobbiests. There is a good mix.
I do not know why you regard you as not been overly educated. You do not sound so. When you are on your path to learn for now 40 years, I may only scratch on the surface. We are nearly the same age it seems. And we all should learn very day we live.

I read about kids who wanted to wear long hair, braids and feather in there hair or buckskin on graduation and that only in late and rare cases they got that through. I was very baffeld. We would never do that and if a child wants to wear clean long hair, single braids or double braids to show his heritage and behaves orderly as I aspect form all who attend school, then I would always support that. Very baffled. Would be regarded as racist and more. Very baffeld.

I decided to devote the time I can devote to reading some books like Bury my heart at Wounded knee, the books by John Marshall III and another book from Ohiyesa. OK, the last one lived and wrote about one hundred years ago but reads very well.

I found some links relating to native Americans in Germany as the Native American Association of Germany. But there seems to be something wrong because of a connection to a plastic shamane. I do not know what or who is trustworthy and who not. I decided to stay of.

The question OL Chemist might be able to answer and I would really appreciate an answer. Is my assumption that there is a pattern from pipe bage correct? Headdresses, pipe bags and war shirts from the beginning I have considered as no gos. War shirts are honor shirts and as far as I know one has to earn them and take grate responsibility when accepting a war shirt wearer.
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Those who do know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 02-19-2017, 02:32 PM   #20
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I do not know why you regard you as not been overly educated. You do not sound so.
Thank-you. I say that because in this era of college degrees being required for about any job I quit high school in the 11th grade.Luckily for me not all "education" comes from public school .

I read about kids who wanted to wear long hair, braids and feather in there hair or buckskin on graduation and that only in late and rare cases they got that through. I was very baffled. We would never do that and if a child wants to wear clean long hair, single braids or double braids to show his heritage and behaves orderly as I aspect form all who attend school, then I would always support that. Very baffled. Would be regarded as racist and more. Very baffled.
It comes from many years of the "dominate culture" believing in myths and stereotypes.The fact that our own people believe that our hair give us pride and strength , a trait the dominate culture has never been able to conquer. They tried to assimilate us into their society and yet after 100s of years, we are still here !

I found some links relating to native Americans in Germany as the Native American Association of Germany. But there seems to be something wrong because of a connection to a plastic shamane. I do not know what or who is trustworthy and who not. I decided to stay of.

From what I have personally seen about some of the German powwows , they try to re-enact actual pre 1840 living periods during their summer gatherings. They also have dances indoor as well , with more a more modern setting , much like our powwows now. A word of advice , don't even believe a wannabe shaman ! Smile , nod , and walk away.Other that that the folks who are involved are very serious and fairly authentic. I've seen some excellent beaded and quilled items from over there.

The question OL Chemist might be able to answer and I would really appreciate an answer. Is my assumption that there is a pattern from pipe bage correct? Headdresses, pipe bags and war shirts from the beginning I have considered as no gos. War shirts are honor shirts and as far as I know one has to earn them and take grate responsibility when accepting a war shirt wearer.
If my wife made me a really nice buckskin shirt and I decided to wear it into battle, then added a few "lucky" trinkets or designs on it , does that make it sacred ? Not to diminish the value as some warriors would have their shirts blessed by a Holy man , but in the end it's just a shirt ! Headdresses were earned and only worn by Chiefs and great warriors , but as all things , that practice has diminished as well.Now it seems that anyone who can collect enough feathers can build and wear a headdress. I see lots of very young guys dancing Tradish , wearing headdresses, and knowing in my heart that they didn't "earn" them and they're too new to have been passed down. Just an observation and a personal opinion !
Pipe bags are not sacred. Only some pipes are ! At least among my people. I have a pipe. Is it sacred ? Probably not , but if I use it to pray , does that make it sacred ? Good question , to me it's just my pipe.
Geometric designs are just designs. Like I said before , there are only so many colors and so many ways to bead a mountain or tipi or whatever ! Some families have personal designs that they don't want copied , but again , if you see the design and change a color or add another row of beads to it , is it still their design ? Let common sense prevail. If you believe it to be wrong , don't do it ! I am NOT a Holy man , nor do I consider myself an Elder , just an old guy ! I AM a Northern Traditional Dancer and builder of traditional regalia and moccasins. I know the traditions that my Elders and Mentors have allowed me !
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__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care

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