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Old 03-13-2017, 02:21 PM   #61
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No, they are not sloppy crafted. Ok, Ruby would not be my choice but that choice is anyone own taste.

Have not gone far enough back in time in the thread. I have seen a lot of fine work done by you there.
Iz because you are not a fashionista! Many NDN dancers wear ruby slippers
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Old 03-13-2017, 02:35 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
Iz because you are not a fashionista! Many NDN dancers wear ruby slippers
May be I am some fifty years behind today's fashion on that, at least partly.

Isn't blue the color for boys and pink for girls.
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And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
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Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
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Old 03-13-2017, 04:08 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Broken Arrow View Post
May be I am some fifty years behind today's fashion on that, at least partly.

Isn't blue the color for boys and pink for girls.
Only if you're phobic. A real man feels comfortable in pink, fuschia or ruby.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
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Old 03-13-2017, 07:32 PM   #64
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P.S. Lonnie Street wears pink. Paris Leighton wears pink.

Joe's Dad wears garnet...which is kinda like ruby.
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Old 03-14-2017, 12:41 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
Joe's Dad wears garnet...which is kinda like ruby.
garnet, that is "Granat Rot". A nice color.


May be I am an outdated fashionista because you traveled with the speed of light and I did not catch up and when we stopped I stayed years behind you.
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True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 03-14-2017, 02:35 PM   #66
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Right moc completed. Beading around the heel. Somehow there is an offset of about two bead between the left and the right side. Haven't got the pitch correct to match.

 photo IMGP0692_1.jpg
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Those who do know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 03-17-2017, 02:13 PM   #67
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Left Moc will be completed next Friday; I hope so.

I wanna doe another pair and want to do better. I have been thinking about a bead pattern which is not close to anything I have seen and is acceptable.

I had an idea, what might be possible:


Starting at the toe with two stars in white on cobalt blue background the middle of the two stars just in the middle of the toe, than yellow background with black, after the last double star half of the yellow section and at the heel coralle red.

I think five double stars should be right. Question is, if the yellow sections are possible in such manner with regard to length.
Perhaps not easily.

The length of the upper at sole level is 65 cm.

What do you think and would advice to do?
Attached Thumbnails
letzter-moc-001-1-1-.jpg  
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Those who do know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 03-17-2017, 02:35 PM   #68
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Nice first effort.

I have a question. What stitch are you using to sew your leather? The pic is blurry, so I couldn't tell for sure. It looked like either you used baseball stitch or the seam was turned outside.

Baseball stitch

If it is baseball stitch, that is not usual for moccs. Buckskin doesn't have the strength to endure when sewn that way. The stitches tear through pretty easily. You really need the double thickness of hide to distribute the forces.

If the seam is on the outside, that is also unusual. If you're having trouble sewing the seam in the inside, you could try a little trick. Before turing the moccs right side out, sew up just a half inch of the heel, a set a knot, but don't cut the sinew. Turn the mocc, then roll the heel inside out and sew with the sinew above the knot.
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Old 03-17-2017, 02:52 PM   #69
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It is a baseball stitch. The stitches go completely through the hide.

I have two craft manuals which emphasize two different styles of heel sewing.

The first one is only halfway through the hide and on the outside. That I did on the very first plain moc which I got as a kit. Not very strong.

The second craft manual emphasizes the baseball stitch. That I did on the second plain moc which I have worn on the archery ground for about 14 times half a day.

Then I do the next pair as you advice.

The most difficult part is to turn a beaded moc. The beads don't slide on one another.

Thank you OL Chemist. Coming up with an own design comes not easy to me. I was never good at this. Technical drawing is much easier.
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Those who do know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 03-17-2017, 03:36 PM   #70
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OK, step away from the kits. Most are really weird.

Look at our work:

1890's Lakota moccs

Plains Moccs

Lakota moccs, modern

Lots of moccs


To make your moccs turn more easily. Find a good movie on TV. While watching, get your latigo and flex and massage your soles. Get the hide loose and flexible, before sewing. Depending on the movie, the protagonists' relationship will be on the rocks or six buildings will have exploded and three cars have been wrecking during wild chases, before you're done.
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Old 03-17-2017, 04:12 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
OK, step away from the kits. Most are really weird.

Unfortunately, the answer is yes.

Look at our work:

Plains Moccs
Thank you.

I think more about the design. I want to hold on to the two white stars on dark blue.

I would like to use the same or a similar design for painting the sinew backed bow which will be completed in May.

I do not want to use the patterns which can found in Jim Hamm


Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post

While watching, get your latigo and flex and massage your soles. Get the hide loose and flexible, before sewing. Depending on the movie, the protagonists' relationship will be on the rocks or six buildings will have exploded and three cars have been wrecking during wild chases, before you're done.

Yes, I should have massaged the latigo more before sewing.

The hides for the uppers I get are German smoked buckskin.
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Those who do know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 03-17-2017, 04:29 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken Arrow View Post
Thank you.

I think more about the design. I want to hold on to the two white stars on dark blue.

I would like to use the same or a similar design for painting the sinew backed bow which will be completed in May.

I do not want to use the patterns which can found in Jim Hamm




Yes, I should have massaged the latigo more before sewing.

The hides for the uppers I get are German smoked buckskin.
I cut out my soles , dry. Then I soak them in water several hours and they get soft and flexible. Then I use an awl and pre-punch my holes in the sole. Once that is done I put them together. It only takes about 30 minutes or so to sew them up. Wet latigo turns much easier than dry !I have a broom handle beveled and rounded to assist the turning process.
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They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

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Old 03-17-2017, 04:44 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
I cut out my soles , dry. Then I soak them in water several hours and they get soft and flexible. Then I use an awl and pre-punch my holes in the sole. Once that is done I put them together. It only takes about 30 minutes or so to sew them up. Wet latigo turns much easier than dry !I have a broom handle beveled and rounded to assist the turning process.
Thank you.

Cutting dry yes. Same way I do.

Oh, not known that latigo can be worked in that manner.

Prepunching holes with awl same way with me.

You are an awfully fast sewer. I need about two and a half hour to sew sole to upper. Than the Latigo will be dry.

I have not wetted the sole after sewing because I feared for the upper to become stiff.
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Those who do know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 03-17-2017, 06:35 PM   #74
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Thanks for the tip, @wardancer! That would save my poor fingers.
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Old 03-17-2017, 06:56 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken Arrow View Post
Thank you.

Cutting dry yes. Same way I do.

Oh, not known that latigo can be worked in that manner.

Prepunching holes with awl same way with me.
How do you do that in the dry latigo ? I tried it dry once and tore the edge !

You are an awfully fast sewer. I've made more than a few pair. I becomes routine and the pre-punched hole make it easy !
I need about two and a half hour to sew sole to upper. Than the Latigo will be dry. It's facing you ! Take a little water on your fingertips and just rub it on. That way it stays damp and the upper doesn't get wet. Then learn to sew faster ! LOL
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have not wetted the sole after sewing because I feared for the upper to become stiff.
I use 1/4" thick Latigo that has not been oiled. It is hard as a rock ! LOL I cut them out with a jigsaw ! smooth the edges with my belt sander.Making mocs is hard work. That is why not everyone can do it.
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 03-17-2017, 06:59 PM   #76
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Here's what I usually get !:
White Latigo Soles (5" x 14") | Craft Leather | Crazy Crow Trading Post

or , if I can afford it :
White Latigo Hides- Half Side (10-11 sf) | Craft Leather | Crazy Crow Trading Post

And when I order I always tell them thicker is better ! LOL
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 03-17-2017, 07:06 PM   #77
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Quote:
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I cut them out with a jigsaw ! smooth the edges with my belt sander.
Hmmmmm... New use for the jigsaw. The belt sander makes a nice smooth edge. I have one of those Black and Decker Mouse sanders.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:00 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Hmmmmm... New use for the jigsaw. The belt sander makes a nice smooth edge. I have one of those Black and Decker Mouse sanders.
As with all things , be careful ! LOL If you sand across the leather it spreads it , Fans it out....not good ! LOL I try to cut outside the lines and sand down to the line. Then you can buff the top and underside lightly , You'll be able to see it when it looks like an edge you can use.Then all you need is a big sink or a pan bigger than the soles and something to keep them submerged. Leave them a day or so. I usually check them every couple of hours. Like I said before , I get everything else done , then take the soles out , use a towel to get to excess water off them , and start sewing ! Next pair I make I'll try to remember to take pics.
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Old 03-18-2017, 10:34 AM   #79
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Wardancer, thank you very much for your tips.

Let us see if I get the answers in the right order.

I use leather scissors to cut the Latigo sole.

Those scissors are mad to cut through floor letaher or sole leather which is used for commercial shoes.

I get the soles here cherokee-trading.de. It is a reseller for crazy crow in Germany.

I have a very sharp pointed thin awl which goes through without toring the edge, if you pay attention. With punching holes through soles and upper I got practice from the turning shoes but you are right that it is much easier if the leather is wet.

Jigsaws are good for a lot of jobs though you should be careful. Same with the sander. Get always reminded not use him because of distributing the dirt in every corner in the garage. You have to follow the sander longside of the edge not square to the sander. But be careful. As always, the more practice the easier.

Watch out for your fingers. They easily and fast hurt. I have an living example of what can go wrong in my family.
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Last edited by Broken Arrow; 03-18-2017 at 10:37 AM..
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Old 03-18-2017, 11:22 AM   #80
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Pattern for sinew backe bow

I'll do not want to open a new thread because though it is about a bow, it is likewise a question of pattern and the question of avoiding to copy.


There is Pre Historic an experimental archeologist who offers courses to build bows in near historical replica quality. I have opted for the "Indianerbogen I + II". Part I is accomplished.

Some adjustments to availability of materials, draw length of the person, body length, hand size and so on are done and therefor it is not a replication of an historic bow but a close and shoots as good as possible.

The bow is made of Hickory as it is more forgiving when making erros and is at hand while chokecherry is not easily at hand. Without sinew backing the bow has at 26 inches a draw weight of 45 pound. The sinew used is ostrich as buffulo sinew is hard to get. estimated draw weight with sinew is about 65 pounds. Bow lenght is 158 cm. At the second part the draw weight will be reduced to a comfortable amount to shoot 60 or 72 arrows in competition.

I have made an paper lay out of the pattern I have in mind to paint on the front side as I do not want the patterns from the museums.

 photo IMGP0693.jpg

To the right side the handle will follow. The handle a plain to wrap with either red or blue wool and over the wool leaving a section of wool visible, buckskin. A Fox fur might be another choice but I am not sure. The upper limb at the tip I want to decorate (right word?) with an raven feather and peyote beadwork on the quill. Black, red, yellow, white. I am not sure if I should paint the right sight up to the handle in sky blue, white or dark green. What color is more suited to red or blue wool?

raven  photo IMGP0694.jpg
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True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

Last edited by Broken Arrow; 03-21-2017 at 08:00 AM.. Reason: Removing picture and word of controversy imagination.
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