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Old 08-25-2005, 03:11 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mezzobean
Gee, am I a cynic or does anyone else have a problem believing THAT?!?! She steals a design, pays someone to make it up and gives it to her daughter who wears it for graduation and then NEVER,EVER takes it out to PowWow? Yeah, right.

Well, we've all said it, but Cutbead Queen, ya did GOOD!
No I don't think anyone has a hard time believing that.. just kinda asking questions to cover all the bases for if it should happen to one of us maybe? In fact I think that's why Dakota asked her question...

Dakota... unless I was absolutely sure that they had permission i would'nt do it.. and would just tell them sorry but I don't feel comfortable copying another's work.
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Old 08-25-2005, 09:22 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chazziff
...

i know of this one woman who was asked to make a full beaded woman's northern traditional regalia for this one woman. well she made the outfit soo when it came time to pay the woman just gave excuse after excuse. so then this woman decides to make a series of regalia - the same design - same colors and sell them. well they sold and now the original woman doesn't wear hers anymore because there are like three or four outfits out there exactly with the same "theme" as hers. who would WANT to buy regalia exactly the same as other peoples?
Are you saying that the woman who made the regalia actually handed over the regalia to the other woman without receiving payment?

hmmm .... sounds like PPP to me...
I've found that you don't give up the item you've made until you receive payment for it... otherwise you most likely will NEVER receive payment for it....
I found that out several years ago.... fortunately the items (not regalia) I made were for a club and were not a major expense, but it was frustrating when the club promised to pay me for them and I never received money... it was their second order and they did pay for the first order, but didn't see fit that the second should be "purchased" and that I should "donate" it to the club.


CQ... hopefully this woman will be turned down by enough other artists out there who will tell her the same thing you did so she will learn not to steal someone else's designs.
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Old 08-26-2005, 06:55 PM   #23
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u would be amazed to see who'll ripp u off

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingingDeer
Are you saying that the woman who made the regalia actually handed over the regalia to the other woman without receiving payment?

hmmm .... sounds like PPP to me...
I've found that you don't give up the item you've made until you receive payment for it... otherwise you most likely will NEVER receive payment for it....
I found that out several years ago.... fortunately the items (not regalia) I made were for a club and were not a major expense, but it was frustrating when the club promised to pay me for them and I never received money... it was their second order and they did pay for the first order, but didn't see fit that the second should be "purchased" and that I should "donate" it to the club.


CQ... hopefully this woman will be turned down by enough other artists out there who will tell her the same thing you did so she will learn not to steal someone else's designs.
we're a trusting sort. sometimes its pretty surprising who'll rip u off. 'good' friends
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Old 08-28-2005, 01:52 AM   #24
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Interesting topic.

Speaking as another non-Native who beads, when I 1st started beading, I used the designs that came with my loom & one other that I found on the internet (Blackfoot, I think), but since then I haven't copied any Native designs, because I almost feel like it's not appropriate. I don't know. I think people should be educated about the Native American culture, and a good way, especially for kids, is to give them hands-on experience. But I also know a lot of people don't take it seriously or think of it as a joke.

So, anyway, most of my designs are totally original, & about as non-Native as you can get. They've become such a hit, I was just contacted the other day about making a book for Harper-Collins. Obviously, they want to print my designs, which I really don't mind, but I want to encourage readers to eventually come up with their own ideas. I call myself a mimicker, but I try at least to show some creativity.
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Old 08-28-2005, 06:04 PM   #25
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I have some jerk who keeps signing my guestbook at the BerrY Patch that I am copying his or her work which it is obvious I do not. I delete the posts and this last time I posted a reply to prove it, but for some reason now my guestbook is'nt even working so I guess I won't worry about it. They keep signing it with fake email addresses the coward. My best guess is it's the same biotch I had problems with here that is now banned but could be a total stranger screwing with me to for all I know. But I do know that if I find out for sure who it is , paybacks are a b*tch.
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Old 08-28-2005, 08:11 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggurlbrain
we're a trusting sort. sometimes its pretty surprising who'll rip u off. 'good' friends
yeah... and after a few friends rip you off, then you quit trusting them as friends....

the guy that was in charge of that group did not speak for the group and many members were ticked that he would not authorize payment for my work for that club.... he was a friend until he did that.... and only worked with the club for one more year... now he doesn't even live in the county.... probably working with some other group in his new area


BB, I hope you figure out what's up with your guestbook.... I disabled mine years ago because the server my ISP moved my site to didn't like it... I'm on a different server and have yet to set up a new guest book for it - too busy working with other projects .. and it's too bad that they have to be so cowardly about signing your guestbook.... is there some way you can log IP addy's on your server?
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Old 08-29-2005, 11:34 AM   #27
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Are you saying that the woman who made the regalia actually handed over the regalia to the other woman without receiving payment?

well she thought the woman was a "good friend" and believed her when she said "i'll stop by tomorrow and pay you" and after months and months of excuses ....
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Old 08-30-2005, 11:14 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chazziff
well she thought the woman was a "good friend" and believed her when she said "i'll stop by tomorrow and pay you" and after months and months of excuses ....
it's sad when people you think are friends treat you like that...
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Old 06-03-2009, 10:56 AM   #29
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Copying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota Wica'hpi Ina View Post
But if you had WRITTEN permission from the owner of the design ( or the person requesting the beadwork had permission) would you then have a problem??
I should like to add that imitation is supposedly the sincerest form of flattery. Yes, I have copied other nations work from books, but always tweak it a little to make it different, out of respect. Problem once when I changed the colours, I inadvertantly made it into someone's clan colours. My bad, I admit, and the apology was graciously accepted.

I use my beadwork to honour ALL nations, not just my own. Except for the extreme bigots, I have had few issues with my work. It is done traditionally (no loom), and I try to favour the "general" pattern of a nation, not those specific to clan or family. That is out of respect for others.

Hope this helps.

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Old 06-03-2009, 09:46 PM   #30
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OK, your heart may be in the right place, but how do you know that the books or online pics are of a clan or family's specific design?

I had a TOUGH time coming up with a "generic" NW design for a fancy outfit. It finally ended up being a "sun" design or some-such after MUCH research.

With all the colors available, I don't know how you can avoid using someone's color scheme. I wouldn't think the color thing would be such an issue. Who did you apologize to?

I'm just dreading the day that I find my own Shoshone Rose design copied. It took many months to come up with my own, and even a different border for it. I know some people just copy the rose designs they have and pass them around like candy.

Will I be flattered? .............doubt it............
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Old 06-03-2009, 10:52 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
Will I be flattered? .............doubt it............
I feel the same way Wyo! For my kids I start planning designs before the currant regalia is to small. My eldest son just took a growth spurt and what I thought would fit this year now doesn't. So I dug out the design I made last fall and got to work. Do you know how hard it was to come up with an original design involving A tipi and a horse? If someone thought that changing the colours would make it ok to copy, flattered would not be the first word that would come to mind....lazy perhaps, but not flattered!

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Old 06-04-2009, 01:29 PM   #32
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great thread still

As a Chahta we traditionally don't wear our regalia to powwows as we historically only dance in them when doing Chahta dances. I've worn my dress to GON once but didn't compete in it. Many announcers will acknowledge SE tribes for wearing their own regalia as we've become so pan-Ndn and they like seeing other tribal regalia.

As for my family members who do compete, we've received permission from 2 extremely close family ties to dance in the Southern or Northern tradition. So I made dresses for my family in the Southern style but was careful to put Chahta designs on them, the design was subtle but recognizable. Before I did that I made dresses from our own tribe, a Chickasaw dress to honor my mother-in-law and a Chahta dress for my tribe..

With so many beading books out by native and non-natives it's created a lassez-faire attitude to those new to our culture. It's interesting that non-native bead books are promoted so much (maybe we should start publishing our books before teaching non-natives..hmmm) If more dancers would wear their own tribal regalia sometime it would show non-natives we are not a monolithic culture.

It's kinda like blonds have more fun. All we see in movies and on TV is Northern tribal regalia, and stories. So that MUST be how real Ndns dress, dance and look like right?

I can only speak for SE tribes but many others did not have a tradition of powwow either like SW and SoCal. That doesn't mean we can't dance, but if you want to dance and dress in a tradition not your own, just make sure you do it with permission and don't copy a design and try to find someway to incorporate your tribes designs or colors in you work to honor your own culture.

I remember when some family members moved to TX & were dancing Southern, they were asked by a southern plains family who had given them permission, fortunately they did it the right way so they could give a clan name and when they were brought out in the southern plain trad. So if you go outside an urban PW setting and go to rez powwows or any PW in OK, TX, you can expect to be challenged more so than in urban areas where everyone is dressing Northern for the most part.

Kudos for those beaders who put tradition and ethics over $$$
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Old 06-05-2009, 05:07 PM   #33
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Copying work and designs

This is a GREAT thread.

I have never had anyone ask me to exactly copy someone else's design that obviously. A couple of people gave me a hint of someone's outfit that they really liked and then I helped them create a new design.

As far as family or tribal-specific designs go - if someone comes to me with a specific design and I don't immediately recognize it as a copy or a design they don't have permission to use, I will go with it. I guess they would be setting themselves up to be confronted about it, and not me. If I knew that they were copying someone else or if it was obvious that they were copying a tribal style that was not theirs, I would not take the job. That lady you mention was really setting up her daughter for a bad confrontational scene in public if someone took her to task for copying their outfit. The powwow circuit is VERY small in reality - at some point in time, someone will recognize it as a copy.

On the flip side - do you ever have people ask you to bead them an outfit and then say "I don't know - just make up the design yourself." That happens to me ALL THE TIME. I live in an urban community, and we have native people from all different tribes. Sometimes I try to talk to them about their tribe or family, and help them come up with a design that would be appropriate, and sometimes they want a modern competition outfit that you can use a more "generic" design. But honestly I have turned away alot of work because people just didn't care to take the time and think about what their outfit should look like - and I don't want that responsibility.
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Old 06-05-2009, 05:25 PM   #34
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Oh I have had that or when asked what they want they same "something (fill in tribal name)". I have lost buisness cause the designing was taking to long (in their opinion) cause I was tryin to figure out what they wanted. If it's for a kid, I ask the kid, they generally know what they like. Now saying it's in a book and out there to be copied just shows lack of knowledge. Must likely permission to make a book for people to copy designs from was never properly obtained. And just cause someone else is doing it doesn't male it Ok. You would think our own would know that...actually I think everyone knows that and some just don't care. The copying is flattery was probably a line made up by the worlds first copycat and then used by all subsequent copycats.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:10 PM   #35
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I agree that this is a great thread, lots of good "meat" to chew on. I won't comment on the whole copying issue and that has been well stated by many of you. I like the idea of "beadwork ethics" though. I have my own ethics that I sort of go by and by my standards this whole scenario would never have happened if it would have been me. I do beadwork for other people for money, but it is by my terms. If you want my work than you only get my work. I let people have some input as to colors, design preference (to a limited extent) but in the end, I am the artist and you are paying for my talent, and my ideas. I have a unique style, that style is identified in a single item and also in the way that that item relates to the rest of someone's outfit. So when someone comes to me asking to just do the work for their project, it is always a no in my book. That's my own ethics on doing work for others. Anyone else have something similar or different?

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Old 06-08-2009, 11:59 PM   #36
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I like that beadman. I started beading and sewing for my family, then my friends, and community. I have just started beading and sewing for money so it is not yet an issue. I ask people what they want and colours then make designs incorporating what they want. Making that policy though has many benifits. From it being YOURS, to knowing EXACTLY where the design comes from (cause its yours) to your work being recognizable. some good stuff to think on.
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Old 06-10-2009, 12:41 PM   #37
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Nice Thread Bump

Kudos to you deisgn makers out there. In the same regards to people buying beaded merchandise, If someone see some sweat shop beadwork being sold dirt cheap and then confronts you like why you charge so much? They do not have any understanding what all goes into makin a design, planning out pattern, techniques to accomplish etc.

I like to look at beadwork and well crafted art in general of all nations and cultures. BUt this only helps get thoughts flowing.

SuzzeQ4 isnt it a pain when u are asked to make design and then they are impatient. If it was so easy they would do it on their own! lol (but in all sincerity i happen to be an awful slacker and until motivated i cant get a pattern idea to save my life, but when the idea comes its always awesome ^_^)
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:35 AM   #38
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Hi beaders

I come from a blackfoot and taina decent and i love for someone to bead me a necklace representing my tribe. Can anyone help?? I live in ct
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