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-   -   How many beads in rows for lazy stitch? (http://forums.powwows.com/f14/how-many-beads-rows-lazy-stitch-70631/)

Broken Arrow 05-16-2017 01:01 PM

How many beads in rows for lazy stitch?
 
WD's personal recommendation is

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardancer (Post 1631084)
I use size 11 czech beads , but that's just personal preference. 7 on a row , Cheyenne style lazy stich. It lays flatter.


Consider a pattern which will require 11,13,15,17,19 or 21 beads.
All rows seven beads that is two rows of seven beads for an 11 or 13 bead pattern and three rows for a 15,17,19 or 21 bead pattern?

Than there are except for the 21 bead pattern background color beads part of the pattern?


There is something else I observed and don't have a clue to the considerations to do in this way. The circumferential pattern on a moc is vertical while the other rows on the upper are horizontal if one looks from the toe.

Mocs and their beading have a long tradition and I have not seen an example where it is done otherwise in lazy stitch.
:questionm

wardancer 05-16-2017 04:20 PM

If I'm doing something small . like baby or toddler mocs , sometimes I only use 5 per row. If I'm filling in an area already completed on 2 sides I will go as many as 9 , but if it takes more than 9 I just make a row of 5 and a row of 6....or 5 + 5 , 7+5 , split the difference. In my opinion once you go past 9 your beads will sag once the thread stretches.And I've never found a thread that doesn't stretch ! Also , I do Cheyenne style lazy stitch , different than Lakota style !

OLChemist 05-17-2017 05:58 AM

It isn't a good idea to get more beads per lane than 9. It gets too sloppy looking and is prone to snagging. Having a lane with one more or one less bead is not uncommon at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broken Arrow (Post 1632433)
There is something else I observed and don't have a clue to the considerations to do in this way. The circumferential pattern on a moc is vertical while the other rows on the upper are horizontal if one looks from the toe.

Mocs and their beading have a long tradition and I have not seen an example where it is done otherwise in lazy stitch.

Not following the shape of the edge on a mocc. What an odd idea, LOL. It won't even look like a beaded mocc.

My point is, like all artistic forms, tribal styles of beadwork have their stylistic conventions. These are thing defined by both the use and what "looks right." These conventions arise from practical and esthetic considerations. It's a little like asking why a Pieta always has Mary and Jesus's dead body; that's what the form requires to be a Pieta.

Among my people beadwork descends from quill work. Many of quillwork's conventions were transferred directly to beadwork. The contrasting lane of circumferential design on moccs is one of these. I suspect that the reason for the direction change in quillwork is that it offers some resistance to the snagging and stresses during walking. But, also it is esthetically satisfying to surround the foot with a band of a differing direction and pattern, like the contrast of the sky touching the earth.

Quilled moccs

Quilled baby moccs

Quilled moccs

Broken Arrow 05-17-2017 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardancer (Post 1632436)
If I'm doing something small . like baby or toddler mocs , sometimes I only use 5 per row. If I'm filling in an area already completed on 2 sides I will go as many as 9 , but if it takes more than 9 I just make a row of 5 and a row of 6....or 5 + 5 , 7+5 , split the difference. In my opinion once you go past 9 your beads will sag once the thread stretches.And I've never found a thread that doesn't stretch ! Also , I do Cheyenne style lazy stitch , different than Lakota style !


You saved the day.

Then one row 7 beads and the other row 6 beads for a total of 13 beads for the pattern. With 13 beads the pattern looks better, the proportions of the elements than seems just to be right. 9 Beads looks wrong.

I take your word on the nine beads and the stretch of thread.

I know, that I know only tiny bits. I only know the lazy stitch which is described in those books you get a Crazy Crow. In those books nobody distinguishes between Cheyenne and Lakota lazy stitch or may eyes are already too bad to recognize.

Broken Arrow 05-17-2017 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1632450)
Having a lane with one more or one less bead is not uncommon at all.

Saves the day really. I have not seen enough originals to recognize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1632450)
Not following the shape of the edge on a mocc. What an odd idea, LOL. It won't even look like a beaded mocc.

Perhaps someone tried a very long time ago and ended up with what you argue below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1632450)
My point is, like all artistic forms, tribal styles of beadwork have their stylistic conventions. These are thing defined by both the use and what "looks right." These conventions arise from practical and esthetic considerations. It's a little like asking why a Pieta always has Mary and Jesus's dead body; that's what the form requires to be a Pieta.

That is as close as it can be. This it "looks right" is convincing.


Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1632450)
Many of quillwork's conventions were transferred directly to beadwork.

I suspect that the reason for the direction change in quillwork is that it offers some resistance to the snagging and stresses during walking.

But, also it is esthetically satisfying to surround the foot with a band of a differing direction and pattern, like the contrast of the sky touching the earth.

Quilled moccs

Looking at the last example, I assume that the esthetic considerations are the more decisive factor.

OLChemist 05-17-2017 04:33 PM

1 Attachment(s)
It is my understanding that the differentiation between Cheyenne style and Lakota style is the placement of the stitch relative to the previous lane of beadwork. In Cheyenne style, the thread is stitched through the hide behind/beneath the prior row. In Lakota, the stitch is placed in the same line as the prior row.

The Cheyenne style stitch placement tensions the new row against the prior row. This has the effect of making the beadwork less humped, although this is not the only factor determining how humped the lanes are.

wardancer 05-18-2017 10:40 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Attachment 10554
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1632460)
It is my understanding that the differentiation between Cheyenne style and Lakota style is the placement of the stitch relative to the previous lane of beadwork. In Cheyenne style, the thread is stitched through the hide behind/beneath the prior row. In Lakota, the stitch is placed in the same line as the prior row.

The Cheyenne style stitch placement tensions the new row against the prior row. This has the effect of making the beadwork less humped, although this is not the only factor determining how humped the lanes are.

Cheyenne style lazy stitch doesn't "stitch" on both ends ! First row does , but the second row hooks the threads on the first row. It only causes a problem if the first row of beads break ! LOL In the pic you can see I sew down the first row. the other rows will"hook" to that row.

Broken Arrow 05-18-2017 01:30 PM

:thumbsup:

Such valuable explanations are worth to be saved for the future in redundant ways as a collection of guides in an practical sequence.

I assume that the thread you use is not endless. Or what length of thread has been found to be practical?

Beginning the second rows, the thread is first tied to the buckskin and then hooked to or through a last bead of a row of the first lanes?

I looks as if you have doubled the thread. On beads size ten Nymo D goes at least four times through the hole of the bead. Sometimes not.

If the thread of the first row breaks you'll have a little problem.

OLChemist 05-18-2017 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardancer (Post 1632467)
Cheyenne style lazy stitch doesn't "stitch" on both ends ! First row does , but the second row hooks the threads on the first row.

OH! Now I understand.

Lordy, you might be sterner stuff than I to turn moccs stitched that way, LOL.

WD, pretty, pretty, btw.

OLChemist 05-18-2017 03:03 PM

10/0's! Boy, you're beadin' with truck tires, LOL.

This is the way this wimp, who has to have her beads firmly attached the hide on both ends, does it.

On 11/0's I use doubled D nymo with lots of wax. I cut a piece about twice as long as my forearm. I don't like to use too long a piece. Even waxed, the thread frays as you work and if your hide is stiff or you're using canvas, if can get pretty ratty by the end. Besides, smaller sections between knots limits the amount of loss if a thread breaks or gets cut while in use.

Inside the lane, underneath where I'm going to bead, I run the needle under the hide for about a 1/4", at a distance of roughly 1/2" from where I want to start my new thread. I tie a knot through a section of hide, fastening the thread to the skin. I do this a second time, moving to almost where I'm going to start. I trim the "tail" flush with the hide. Finally, I bring my needle up through the hide to the starting point.

At the end of the thread, I repeat the same knotting procedure. If I'm at the end of the lane, I run the thread and knots under the row.

wardancer 05-18-2017 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1632472)

On 11/0's I use doubled D nymo with lots of wax. I cut a piece about twice as long as my forearm. I don't like to use too long a piece. Even waxed, the thread frays as you work and if your hide is stiff or you're using canvas, if can get pretty ratty by the end. Besides, smaller sections between knots limits the amount of loss if a thread breaks or gets cut while in use.

Inside the lane, underneath where I'm going to bead, I run the needle under the hide for about a 1/4", at a distance of roughly 1/2" from where I want to start my new thread. I tie a knot through a section of hide, fastening the thread to the skin. I do this a second time, moving to almost where I'm going to start. I trim the "tail" flush with the hide. Finally, I bring my needle up through the hide to the starting point.

At the end of the thread, I repeat the same knotting procedure. If I'm at the end of the lane, I run the thread and knots under the row.

same , same ! When I end my thread I run it on under the hide , into the center of the beading lane . Then I'll tack a couple stitches overlapping then trim it close and melt with a lighter. Same as a knot only lazier ! LOL The beads hide it. When I get all done I try to work the thread under to an edge or inside so it doesn't show.

wardancer 05-18-2017 04:01 PM

Oh , that pic is part of a set I made last year for a guy up in The Upper Peninsula, Michigan. Tradish guy ! I did cuffs first , then armbands , then side tabs , then mocs !
http://forums.powwows.com/1559034-post841.html
http://forums.powwows.com/1560335-post855.html
http://forums.powwows.com/1586572-post898.html
http://forums.powwows.com/1592594-post911.html

Broken Arrow 05-18-2017 04:21 PM

Truck Tires for small feet!:lol:

What I intended to say I have expressed in a misleading way it seems.
I'll make a sketch and post it later.

Would be glad, if I could watch in real and learn.

Looks great WD. Hope there are serials to admire in the future.

OLChemist 05-18-2017 05:43 PM

I have an electric torch ignitor and an acetylene torch, a camp stove and matches, or a really nice Weller soldering iron I'm not getting anywhere near melting nylon. I can put in 20 or 30 knots before I can come up with a suitable ignition source, LOL.

wardancer 05-18-2017 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1632483)
I have an electric torch ignitor and an acetylene torch, a camp stove and matches, or a really nice Weller soldering iron I'm not getting anywhere near melting nylon. I can put in 20 or 30 knots before I can come up with a suitable ignition source, LOL.

:rofl: No "Bic" lighter ??? :rofl:

OLChemist 05-18-2017 08:04 PM

It's my white blood. I can't help it.:devil2:

OLChemist 05-18-2017 08:41 PM

I'm called the Asbestos Chemist.

When I was in grad school, I was on the grad student safety committee. Among other responsibilities, we trained lab assistants in the use of fire extinguishers. The local fire department would send a trainer but we provided the solvents and fire. One year, lighting the fires fell to me.

We did this little exercise on the lawn, in front of the grad student pub. Did I mention, during the first day of freshman orientation. We had a good and vocal audience of grad students on the lam from their labs and slightly alarmed looking parents.

Being August in Houston, it was in the upper 90's with 95%+ relative humidity. We were burning waste acetone in an large evaporating dish. At that temperature, the acetone was evaporating almost as fast as I poured. And fire fighter launched into a long speech right after I filled the dish. I could see the schlieren lines along the heavier-than-air solvent vapor front as it flowed out of the dish and along the table. After a few minutes the vapors began streaming down onto the grass.

I was getting more and more nervous, visualizing a big fire ball along the ground and table top. All I had to light this mess was a piece of Pyrex tubing, into which I was to fit a lit kitchen match. The tubing was no where near as long as I would have liked. And the match didn't fit too well. And our fire fighter friend was just talking and talking, while I was frantically trying to remember the lower flammability limit for acetone.

By the time, the fireman gestured for me to light the solvent, my hands were shaking. I broke a half a dozen matches, before I got the first one lit. Then I extinguished the match trying to get it into the tubing. Next I tried throwing the a couple, only to have them drop rapidly toward acetone and go out. No fire. People started heckling. I tried the tubing again. No joy.

After a week -- OK, two minutes of agony -- I looked up. Our fighter fighter friend was doubled over, fist shoved in his mouth to stifle his laughter. When he saw me looking at him, he took the matches and gracefully flipped on into bowl, which bust into flames.

At the end, he thanked the "Asbestos Chemist" for her "able" assistance. The name stuck.

In '98 I was giving a poster at the national ACS meeting in Boston, when I heard someone on the walkway over the main lobby in Copley Center yelling, "It's the Asbestos Chemist." I looked up to spy a colleague from my grad school days. My postdoc adviser, the other postdoc in the lab, one of our grad students and the undergrad RA were all looking at me. Our research group studied collision vibrational energy partitioning. Research which was funded by the Office of Naval Research and the Air Force because of it's applicability to disguising rocket and jet engine combustion signatures.

I still fail to enjoy the irony.


(Oh, GAK! I should have put yesterday's iced tea in the fridge; it's fermented into really foul near beer.)

Broken Arrow 05-19-2017 12:02 PM

1 Attachment(s)
The scan could be better.

Think I got it what to do for cheyenne stitch. I do another pair of mocs with truck tire beads. I have to take what beads I have.

wardancer 05-19-2017 12:25 PM

I can't tell on paper ! LOL I'll try to do a short video clip or series of pics to show how I learned to do it. Maybe in the next day or 2-3......

OLChemist 05-19-2017 04:40 PM

OK, I think I decrypted your diagram. It was a bit faint in places. Your first illustration looks like fairly standard lane stitch....

Your second, well, I've never seen anything like that. Doesn't the thread stick out like a sore thumb? ("Sticking out like a sore thumb" is an expression that means something is very obvious.) I'd be worried that things would snag on those tender little threads and break them. Bye bye beads.

Some goodies from Cheyenne-Arapahoe TV in OK. The videos are not in order, but there are many hours of happy viewing.

Making Regalia -- Playlist

Broken Arrow 05-20-2017 02:04 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Perhaps I should have a used felt-tip pen instead of pencil. Pencil is easier to erase in case of error.

I tried with "monster" beads what I think how cheyenne stitch is. I suppose that I am still missing the point.

On the back you see the what on buckskin would not be visible on the back but is within the skin.

OLChemist 05-20-2017 05:14 AM

1 Attachment(s)
If I understood what Wardancer said correctly, rather than running the stitch through the first beads of the prior row, it is run underneath the threads anchoring the prior row.

Broken Arrow 05-20-2017 05:45 AM

Wardancer writes

Quote:

Cheyenne style lazy stitch doesn't "stitch" on both ends ! First row does , but the second row hooks the threads on the first row
Cause he says that second row is stitched only on one end to the hide lets me think, that the thread on the other end goes through the last bead of the first row.

The other way would be to tuck the thread of the second row under the thread of the first row which comes out of the last bead but without going through the hide. As seen in your attached.

Oh, oh. If so, you need to be even more awfully accurate in the length and uniformity of all stitches.

wardancer 05-20-2017 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1632509)
If I understood what Wardancer said correctly, rather than running the stitch through the first beads of the prior row, it is run underneath the threads anchoring the prior row.

That is correct. Just go around the threads of the prior row.

OLChemist 05-20-2017 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broken Arrow (Post 1632510)
Oh, oh. If so, you need to be even more awfully accurate in the length and uniformity of all stitches.

Indeed. Many of us draw light pencil lines on the hide, marking the edges of the lanes. You will need to cull your beads, removing the very thin and very thick, to keep the lanes even.

Since colors often differ in thickness, you may need to vary the number of beads in a row. For example I frequently use medium/turquoise blues for backgrounds (252, 254, 242, 247, 240) and lots of the dark red (082) in my designs. This red is often thinner than the beads in the background. I may have an 8 bead lane in the background, but in the red area it will be 9 beads wide.

Broken Arrow 05-20-2017 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1632512)
Indeed. Many of us draw light pencil lines on the hide, marking the edges of the lanes. You will need to cull your beads, removing the very thin and very thick, to keep the lanes even.

Since colors often differ in thickness, you may need to vary the number of beads in a row.

This red is often thinner than the beads in the background. I may have an 8 bead lane in the background, but in the red area it will be 9 beads wide.


I am preparing to do one new pair of mocs. I am yet undecided if the pattern shall be in general a total of eleven (6 + 5) or thirteen (7+6) beads. The lower row the one with the more beads.

I will do some tests beading on scrap pieces before beading the real piece and follow your advices.



All projects are delayed for some time. Now is busy time of the year because of all the exams which need to be rated.

With that pair, I will have more mocs than I can ever wear out. As slipper, one pair might last me a lifetime. In the forest and on the meadow of the archery club, the not beaded pair lasts longer than expected and will last even longer. Nobody seems to notice the not beaded mocs. (Ok, I only put them on when the weather is dry and sunny.)

nova13 05-18-2020 12:34 AM

I do no more the 7 at a time.

wardancer 05-18-2020 09:38 AM

I generally do 7 as well , but depending on bead sizes and pattern designs , that count can vary. Like Ol'C says , some colors are thinner or thicker , so on a smaller design set it can really make a difference.

wardancer 05-18-2020 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broken Arrow (Post 1632513)
I am preparing to do one new pair of mocs.

Are you making hard sole or soft sole ?

Broken Arrow 05-18-2020 12:55 PM

HI WD,

I used White Latigo for all the mocs I made.

The suppliers in Germany import that right out of Texas.

On ordering I always hoped for the thicker soles. Harder to turn but better to wear. And I attached thin anti-slippery soles after sliding one time and landing the whole length on my back on concrete but avoided to hit with the back of my head. You don't see the antislippery sole if standing on the moccs.

OLChemist 05-18-2020 01:10 PM

Don't forget the foam insoles. They make hard gym floors and gravel parking lots so much more comfortable, LOL.

wardancer 05-18-2020 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broken Arrow (Post 1642893)
HI WD,

I used White Latigo for all the mocs I made.

The suppliers in Germany import that right out of Texas.

On ordering I always hoped for the thicker soles. Harder to turn but better to wear. And I attached thin anti-slippery soles after sliding one time and landing the whole length on my back on concrete but avoided to hit with the back of my head. You don't see the antislippery sole if standing on the moccs.

Same sole material I use !

Do you wet them to sew and turn them ?

Broken Arrow 05-18-2020 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardancer (Post 1642896)
Same sole material I use !

Do you wet them to sew and turn them ?

I sew and turn them with dry sole.
For sewing I have prestitched the soles with an awl at measured equal spacing. First marking th eplaces where to prestitch, about 3 mm apart adn than using the awl to make the holes. The top of the awl should just barly go through the Latigo. The holes shall be as large as neccessary and as small as possible.

May be not historically correct but practical to me.

OLChemist 05-18-2020 03:42 PM

I was taught to rub the side of a pair of scissors along the edge of the sole. It kind of raises and thickens the edge.

Flex the sole a bunch before sewing and turning. It helps. I also knot the stitches, without cutting the cord, at intervals. It helps keep the stitches from loosening up. (I don't have the hand strength I used to.) It helps keep the tension even and will help contain a blow out.


WD, do you space your stitches closer on the instep?

Broken Arrow 05-18-2020 04:16 PM

Yes flexing is very important and you need force in your hands to flex the sole. If the Latigo is very thick, hard work.

The two sides of the sole are different. Where the flesh was, it becomes the inside.

wardancer 05-18-2020 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1642901)
I was taught to rub the side of a pair of scissors along the edge of the sole. It kind of raises and thickens the edge.

Flex the sole a bunch before sewing and turning. It helps. I also knot the stitches, without cutting the cord, at intervals. It helps keep the stitches from loosening up. (I don't have the hand strength I used to.) It helps keep the tension even and will help contain a blow out.


WD, do you space your stitches closer on the instep?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broken Arrow (Post 1642902)
Yes flexing is very important and you need force in your hands to flex the sole. If the Latigo is very thick, hard work.

The two sides of the sole are different. Where the flesh was, it becomes the inside.

O.K. I've made a few pairs of mocs , but really I'm still learning. I do tend to make my stitches closer at the instep and toe.1/8th , 1/4th on the rest. When getting ready I soak the sole , completely saturate the material. Then take 1 out and pat dry with a towel and pre punch your holes. Then the other. I usually do this the day before I plan on sewing them up. The next day I dampen them and start sewing them , but typically I don't quit until I'm done. It's so much easier to turn them when they are damp.Once turned I stuff them with paper and set someplace to dry slowly. Check them so they don't warp.
We always wear hides the same way the animal wore them !This works for me , try at your own risk ! LOL I just whip stitch them......sometimes I'll throw in a half hitch along the way.

wardancer 05-18-2020 04:53 PM

And I have a turning stick ! LOL an 1 1/4 dowel sanded flat and rounded on 1 end ! Works like a champ !
And yes BA , I use a small awl.
Ol'C the scissor trick works the same as my belt sander ! LOL
I try to always cut out and leave the line , then I sand it down to the line.
I don't hope for thicker soles , I demand them when I order !LOL They've kinda gotten to know me !

wardancer 05-18-2020 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broken Arrow (Post 1632510)
Wardancer writes



Cause he says that second row is stitched only on one end to the hide lets me think, that the thread on the other end goes through the last bead of the first row.

The other way would be to tuck the thread of the second row under the thread of the first row which comes out of the last bead but without going through the hide. As seen in your attached.

Oh, oh. If so, you need to be even more awfully accurate in the length and uniformity of all stitches.

This is correct , but actually this give you more leeway so to speak. When you bead like this it actually averages your tension. You pull each row tight and it pulls the beads up from every attached row. The end result is your beadwork lays flatter.
http://forums.powwows.com/attachment...eading-077.jpg
http://forums.powwows.com/attachment...eading-051.jpg
http://forums.powwows.com/attachment...920_134329.jpg

wardancer 05-18-2020 05:24 PM

http://forums.powwows.com/attachment...d-armbands.jpg

OLChemist 05-18-2020 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardancer (Post 1642904)
I don't hope for thicker soles , I demand them when I order !LOL They've kinda gotten to know me !

I used to get some nice thick blanks at R.L. Cox Hides and Furs is Albq. But that was back when I was living in Albq.


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