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Old 01-13-2018, 02:15 PM   #1
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Knife Sheaths

I have some knifes and I wont to alter the knife sheaths respectively make knew ones.

I know how to make knife sheaths from cow and moose leather without and with wooden inlay.

My intention is to make a beaded knife sheath but on that stiff cow leather I cannot bead.

Knife sheath made from buckskin upon which I can bead, isn't stiff enough as knife sheath.

In which way can beadwork be attached to cow hide knife sheaths without beading on that cow hide?

Some examples of knifes and their not beaded sheaths

A small folder with yew grips, a Scandinavian blade about 4 inches long and 1/10 inch wide with yew handle and the last one is accompanied by the wooden inlay.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:47 PM   #2
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In the old ones, there was frequently a rawhide insert. Or the beadwork was done on buckskin and attached to the heavier leather.

Plains Indian Knife Sheaths Book

In modern work, glue is your friend.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:53 PM   #3
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One old example:

Knife sheath
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Old 01-14-2018, 07:11 AM   #4
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I suppose that I would not be very happy with gluing.

Sewing the beaded buckskin to the heavier leather, hm try and find out to do it in a neat way.

Rawhide insert requires rawhide. Hm, question is thickness and may be I can ask on Friday a friend where rawhide can be obtained here.

Unfortunately there is no one to listen and look too, to do it right or for that a craft course.

The design idea is going into the direction below
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File Type: pdf muster-knife-sheath.pdf (3.5 KB, 23 views)
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Old 01-14-2018, 10:39 AM   #5
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I should clarify the gluing comment.

The beadwork is done on buckskin. The buckskin with the completed beadwork (excluding the edges) is glued over the rawhide envelope. Then the edges are beaded.

Also in the old days glue was made for hide scraping and certain tendons. It was mixed with dry pigment to adhere the paint to rawhide. It was used for making tools and weapons. So, glue isn't necessarily a anachronism. But remember we're a modern people; we have always used what best serves our needs.

When looking at the old work, remember when working with sinew the holes were made with a fine awl. The awl can go through thicker/harder leather than beading needles. When working with latigo or other heavy leather, you can pre-punch the holes with an awl.

Beaded sheath

Beaded sheath 2

Look closely at these. In the first one, you can see beading over the edges. On the second, you can see the sinew going through the rawhide liner.

As for rawhide. I can't recall any of the names, but there a places in Germany that sell a full range of supplies for Native style crafts.
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Old 01-14-2018, 10:52 AM   #6
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Although I've never tried it , my brother down in Austin has done several sheaths and a couple belts and holsters that are beaded on harness type leather. His patience is way better than mine ! He used an awl to punch holes for every lane of lazy stitch !Beautiful work though ! Sorry , I have no pics !
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Old 01-14-2018, 12:34 PM   #7
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With an awl I can make holes in the cow hide as I know from the belt I did. But that was strap leather I think it is called and not so hard and stiff as the leather used for sheath normally. As for making the belt, keeping the Nymo tide but not to tide needs practice. Picture of the belt below.

On parfleche I know that below and they have a German dependence.

parfleche-knife-sheath-kit

Read that and yes glue is needed for painting. I know from painting the bow and icon painting. The glue in both latter cases are different, fish glue and egg glue.

Beaded edge and not beaded edge, I am not set yet.

If beading on buckskin and than gluing to the inner sheath made of rawhide, what thickness should the rawhide have? I only know raw hide as a strip in 0,5 mm thickness.

The cow hide is already about 3 mm and adding a cover of buckskin of 2 mm makes quit a thick knife sheath. Thinner rawhide therefore seems a good idea.

In this case, beading only halfway into the buckskin or better going through the whole hide?
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Old 01-14-2018, 02:45 PM   #8
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As an old ndn man and experienced in tanning hides I have to admit that I don't have any idea what the difference between rawhide and parfleche !
I've seen both in finished applications and visually I can see no difference. I tried to look it up and it only says that rawhide is "un-tanned" ! LOL
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

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Old 01-14-2018, 03:39 PM   #9
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LOL, without any tanning experience and bound to the written word,

I got the understanding that parfleche and rawhide is the same, namely untanned leather.

What little I know is, that you cab+n wet rawhide, bring it to shape and when dried , holds the shape, except the air is very moisture.

But I may be, I missed a lot of should and need to know.
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Old 01-14-2018, 07:10 PM   #10
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My rawhide tends to come in deer skin thickness, LOL. In my younger, less sane days, I sanded rawhide once to thin it. But, now I just use what God gave me.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:24 PM   #11
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Back when I was working hides , and yes they were deer hides , I kept several hides that I scraped and sanded , but then never brained or broke them. I had good clean deer rawhide for years ! I made a couple hand drums and a couple shields. I've lined several knife sheathes and then buckskin over them.They are not much thicker than the knife blade ! Well , maybe about the same total as the blade, 3/16ths to maybe 1/4".
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

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Old 01-15-2018, 04:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
My rawhide tends to come in deer skin thickness, LOL. In my younger, less sane days, I sanded rawhide once to thin it. But, now I just use what God gave me.
Did'nt they use the brains of the animal to soften the skin in the old day's.Normaly the brain was just enough to prepare the skin.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:21 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Chalako View Post
Did'nt they use the brains of the animal to soften the skin in the old day's.Normaly the brain was just enough to prepare the skin.
Yes , that is correct. I used cow brains to tan my hides , but that is what was available. The deer I killed I kept all the good stuff ie: brains , liver , kidneys etc. The hides given to me I just went to the store and bought enough cow brains to do all the hides. I tanned 8-15 every year for about 5 years. It's just a ton of work ! wonderful leather to work with when it's done ! Now I just buy that "German Tan" which is almost as soft , but thicker than what I tanned.
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:09 PM   #14
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German tanned deer hide, that is available. The thickness of the hides are between 1,5 mm to 3 mm.

It is said that the hides are no longer what they once have been. Can't assess if it is true.

Last edited by Broken Arrow; 01-15-2018 at 01:16 PM..
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:57 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
Yes , that is correct. I used cow brains to tan my hides , but that is what was available. The deer I killed I kept all the good stuff ie: brains , liver , kidneys etc. The hides given to me I just went to the store and bought enough cow brains to do all the hides. I tanned 8-15 every year for about 5 years. It's just a ton of work ! wonderful leather to work with when it's done ! Now I just buy that "German Tan" which is almost as soft , but thicker than what I tanned.
I tought this was work for the woman...LOL.
In the old days they worked for days on a single hide.I wonder if the hide of a buffalo is harder to prepare than for exemple a deer.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:37 AM   #16
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*Rose takes a deep breath, before slapping around some European patriarchy. Woman's work eh...*

Ok, your joke touched on a hot-button stereotype. Forgive me, if I use this as a teachable moment. I'm using your post as a launching point. Please don't take this personally.

Quote:
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I tought this was work for the woman...LOL.
Not this again!

Apocryphal "Chief Two Eagles" quote

I hope you don't actually believe the above reflects gender relations in all of Native America. In the old days, my people distributed labor along gender lines. But, that division was not subordination of one gender to the other. It did not mean women's work was of little value. It was in European law where women were property of their father's and husbands. It was your male focused ethnology and history that devalued our work and lives. (While fetishizing the collecting of material culture often produced by women.)

Yes, women honored their male relatives and husbands by processing the hides and meat that their men risked their lives to obtain. But, a man could do tasks normally done by women, when needed. He'd be ill-equipped to survive his labors if he couldn't make or mend his moccasins or make a robe, when traveling far from the comforts of home. And, no man would want a woman who couldn't defend and feed his children when he or her male relatives were unable to help. Unlike the Victorians, we never regarded labor as debasing to a woman. A high status woman was constantly encouraged to industry and generosity. The tiyospaye could not function if one half was devalued, and without the tiyospaye we were worse than uncivilized.

Plus, hello, this is the 21st century. I respect anyone, regardless of gender, who is willing to do the hard, tedious labor involved in making old-style brain-tan. Just as I respect those who preserve traditional European arts.

Eye's has a pretty good catch. A man who puts his labor, in all areas, to the support of his kin and his people. That is a real Indian man - regardless of whether he conforms to some older standard of gender roles.

Quote:
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I wonder if the hide of a buffalo is harder to prepare than for exemple a deer.
Ever tried to lift a wet or damp buffalo hide? My ancestresses -- Anglo and Native -- were way sterner stuff than I. I thank the Creator, that I was born in the post-antiboitic, car-driving, labor saving, grocery store days.
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Last edited by OLChemist; 01-16-2018 at 11:36 AM.. Reason: Yeah, Rose, what is a jolke anyway. A mutually agreed upon spelling is a good thing.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:00 AM   #17
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I'm going to ignore ignorance and just thank Ol'C for the compliment !
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 01-16-2018, 01:27 PM   #18
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Ah WD, I always have a good day when OLChemist starts to teach a lecture and you demonstrate in words on craftmanship.

If I only could have ever experienced a live teaching lecture of OLChemist. "Loosing" argument against OLChemist is no shame.

I think it is a great learning, happiness and delight to "fence" with OLChemist with a very special splash of humor.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:32 AM   #19
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OK, i made a new mistake.It was not my intention to offend anyone,just making i silly joke.I do admire the work from the female natives in the old days and the modern days.

Please accept my apologies!
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:21 AM   #20
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Humor always has a place to be, but if someone does not understand it, then probably you should not take offense. But I like their inventions.
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