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Old 02-06-2013, 11:24 PM   #41
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:27 PM   #42
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Funny thing about that symbol seems I read somewhere that its really old like thousands of years old! Like Hindu's Romans ect ect

But a few years ago I was doing some research on my Aunt's boarding school Chilocco and that was a symbol the school used until the early 30's when the Nazi party came into power and it became asscociated with them which is too bad

Its not a Family symbol but an ancient one discovered and used over and over

Chilocco Indian Agricultural School Basketball 1909


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Old 02-07-2013, 12:10 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Elo Janis View Post
Are there any elders in the house to answer that or do you want me to drive back to Rosebud and talk to the elders about this change that spells the end to our original and beautiful ways of life?
1. You're not going to find anything of our "original way of life" at Rosebud.
2. Seeking that which no longer exists is what holds us back.
3. Growth is NOT assimilation.

As for what you wear into the arena, I'm a big fan of personal expression even if most folks have no idea what you're doing. I you desire to wear a German co-opted symbol while dancing? I'm fine with that.

About ten years ago, the was a cloth dress dancer who, on Sunday afternoons, would wear a 7th Calvary Stetson. First, she wasn't very tall so she was cute as a bug. Second, some folks got mad.

"How coud she wear/do such a thing? That's the mark of our oppressor..." and such bull****.

My answer? In 1876, where would she GET such a hat?

Do the math...
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:13 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
I do think the symbol is interesting and I agree with you I'd want to know more. I had seen the symbol in books when I was a child as being part of NDN symbology, and later in life in vedic stuff, which is where the nazis got it from but screwed it up and put it backwards, because they were idiots. They believed in an Indo-European Aryan superrace, this would have grown out of East Indian "whites", which never existed but the nazis were bent on proving it anyway, its all made up on their part. Even the current Indo-European language tree taught in every university linguistics department is untrue, a product of racism.
Thank you, for dispelling another 'white' lie. I believe it's important to say even at the risk of being viewed by some as racist because they want to silence you truth-seekers, and it connects ppl behind truth rather than lies; albeit, silently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
It does seem like you got jumped on. I wish I could help you more. I know how it feels to be cut off and trying to rebuild. Its the result of genocide and discrimination, not everyone made the same decisions, because we are not all robots and stereotypes, and especially women suffered more in this way, often married to non-Indians and drug along away from the community. People will cry out about the genocide and discrimination, but don't like to deal with the resulting fragmentation, which everyone has to some degree. You are asking a question, and that does imply you don't know something, which is fine. That makes you learning, not ignorant. You cannot be ignorant and learning at the same time. Not possible. I hope you get an answer.
@ Elo Janis
I concur with this. There is nothing wrong with trying to find out. In fact, I encourage you. Contrary to what it may seem at times, we all start out with wonder and questions. No one is born with the answers. You don't deserve to be jumped on. Believe me, if I thought so I would have jumped on you also. lol
I'm coming in late on this thread, but it's disappointing that no one is helping you to understand the meaning of the symbol but instead making it about some frivolous point, or even worse, that no one knows and the knowledge has been lost. Now I'm not the nDn ethnic variety, but I'm the Asian ethnic variety, but if you know we are from a common root then perhaps you might find my explanation useful.
I'd like to add that 'swastika' is sanskrit -- still used by Indians and Buddhists (although rarefied groups), and a symbol still made in modern day (not so much in the West obviously due to Nazism). Its actual spelling is svastika, and translated into today's vernacular means, "Whoop! There it is!" It points to the meaning of life, or that there is a meaning; hence this is why Nazis flip the svastika because they were guided by nihilism. They feel truth only lies in contempt. So they contempt everything, even their own allies as it turned out. They wanted to gain power through might, enslavement, totalitarianism,...like screwing things into place rather than unscrewing things to be free, and they wanted to be the screwer (uber-human). This may sound familiar in today's context for some. In truth though, the direction of the svastika doesn't matter so much. Their response is to Buddhists and the de-militarizing nature of their beliefs. So they are trying to say, God is dead, there is no meaning to life (nihilism), and might makes right.
As I have been taught, svastika refers to the 4 winds + sun movement (or celestial movements) + earth axis (or rotation/orbit) + humans (matter) -- one in the same of a bigger movement, just different parts as we humans identify it. It also speaks of numerology/direction (sacred geometry), sound (vibration), etc... but that's another topic. The significance of the 4 (8,16,etc..) winds speak about the different characters of wind and relates to health & spirit. Sometimes the swastika is put on an angle to signify the multiplicity of 4 and its omnidirectional meaning.
It is a symbol of 'pre-heaven' times or the constitution of our world as we were given. We are in 'post-heaven' times, perhaps demarcated by the ancient wars, meteors that killed dinosaurs, or aliens; but namely, a major axis (rotation) shift in our planet. The difference between pre-heaven and post-heaven in regards to wind is that the forces of our world had different significance, then vs today. In pre-heaven times, wind was a much more stronger power. You can liken it to going into water where air pressure is 100 times less than outside of water, and how according to your breath you can control buoyancy; hence, the association with levitation and monks. You can think about how the pyramids were made, why we don't make them anymore, what told them to choose those places, etc. Or why humans referred to birds and flying. 'Post-heaven' refers to what was done to us and our world after what was given. Although this is a pre-heaven symbol perhaps made post-heaven, it is still important to know what we come from to know who we are and realize where we are going. This is part and parcel to understanding that there is meaning in life--that we aren't alienated, but that we are connected to each other and God (the force, buddha-nature, whatever). At any rate, wind or air power is still relevant today. Think about an explosion, the vast majority of the destruction is due to air power rather than the explosive itself. Or simply as breathing.

The cross is humanity (matter) and reference to the number 10, or binary code of 0 & 1, or form & emptiness. The winds (vibration) cause and effect each other is also signified by the crossing. This means that everything causes and effects each other, contrary to the Western ideal of cause and effect in a linear fashion, where A causes/effects B, B upon C, etc. The ancients saw it as A, B, C causes /effects each other, so A causes/effects B & C, B causes/effects A& C, etc... Like a drop in still water that ripples to its shore and ripples back to its source-point. So linear causality is actually just a small excerpt of the causality idea of the ancients. In pali the word is 'patticasamupada.'
The swastika 'whirls' outward & inward. As the ancients say, "the outer is of the inner, the inner is of the outer. the upper is of the lower, the lower is of the upper." -- or in modern speak, a relationship of heaven and earth, and we're in it. It whirls left, it whirls right, like yin-yang, and signifies a circle. I think most of you know the significance of the circle and its very maternal shape. Without going into a long drawn out writing, these are just some clues for those interested to go further. In essence, its an explanation of becoming, or a you can say an ancient scientific model. The svastika is a book of knowledge contained in a symbol. Its very important symbol once you know what it means if you can get away from the Nazi stuff. Its more akin to yin-yang symbol than Nazism.
For my ten-cents, I think the svastika shouldn't end with the Nazis and be memorialized with them. The fact is, its an understanding that can be used to help ppl or hurt ppl, but if ppl become unaware of it then we are just fulfilling Nazism, no? Even if the symbol is not used, the teachings should not be lost. There is a greater community of our ppl outside of televisions and movies that we are taught. And not everyone that has the svastika is of the svastika, as evidenced by the Nazis. So you really do need to learn the meaning of it rather than just looking to see who has the 'badge.' Excuse my elementary speak, but we could go on forever.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:35 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
1. You're not going to find anything of our "original way of life" at Rosebud.
2. Seeking that which no longer exists is what holds us back.
3. Growth is NOT assimilation.

As for what you wear into the arena, I'm a big fan of personal expression even if most folks have no idea what you're doing. I you desire to wear a German co-opted symbol while dancing? I'm fine with that.

About ten years ago, the was a cloth dress dancer who, on Sunday afternoons, would wear a 7th Calvary Stetson. First, she wasn't very tall so she was cute as a bug. Second, some folks got mad.

"How coud she wear/do such a thing? That's the mark of our oppressor..." and such bull****.

My answer? In 1876, where would she GET such a hat?

Do the math...
Homogenization is not growth. And all growth is not good. The drive to progress is part of western culture, well some western culture, the predominant culture, which is reckless and frought with problems. Means-oriented cultures, which focus more on the way things are done vs. achieving goals any way possible, are sorely lacking. We need a balance, but there is no place for means-oriented or traditional people in today's fast pace, achieve what you can, greedy culture. Our planet is dying because of this, its not hippy crap, its real. Its not always about being the best, but just being in the right way. Just like you are concerned with individuals being responsible, cultures need to be responsible for their messaging and their direction. We can't just be a country with everyone going off in every direction, we had laws and regulations and people to enforce them at one time and a set of core beliefs and an identity, for better or worse, even as Americans. I hate to see more people jump on this bandwagon of progress at any cost, all progress is good, that something has to be new and modern to be good. Its just as foolish as thinking everything old is better. Many older ways are better simply because we were less efficient with our greed, to some degree. For many people we are invisible and an unimportant minority, being "modern" with all the conspicuous consumption, competition vs. cooperation, and worshipping at the altar of mammon isn't gonna change that. Its a rat wheel, sometimes necessary, but one we all are glad to get off. It's something we teach in school, that means oriented thinking can change the way we view the world and each other and stop the path of destruction we're on. We can be better workers and people this way.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:47 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elo Janis View Post
muskrat_skull,
Thank you for clarifying the language issue as it was hard to explain what I was attempting to say.
When I was a youngster the whole 'let's all be bi-lingual' push in SD schools was underway when I was first learning the English language. I made unchi holiday & birthday cards with our language written as it sounded.
She was as confused as to how our language was being wasechu-ized as I was standing on the other side. I would just sound it out and try to spell it. She would calmly and patiently sit there doing the same thing in trying to figure out what I was attempting to say to her using Lakolish if you will.

But back to the use of this symbol. From what I have gathered from elders, at the time that particular picture was taken, a family member was suffering from repeated miscarriages. It is believed that the symbol signified hope for successful pregnancies. In then looking at a family tree, there were several children born around that time period, including two sets of twins.
So I am going to accept the symbol signified 'circle of life' prayers for success at starting a family. Since it was placed near the hand, the interpretation now makes perfect sense as the maternal head of the family was seeking a hand from the Great Spirit for fertility to grow our family.
It now makes perfect sense that instead of being placed directly into the design, it was placed on the outer part of the main part of the design meaning that an outside force was in part responsible for 'lending a hand' and helping with the reproductive process.
I knew there was a deep spiritual meaning to the symbol and with a collective thought, we will accept this symbolism. I have decided against including this symbol in the beadwork I am in the middle of assembling. The elders I spoke to agree with this decision.

Interesting few days to say the least!
Many of the pictures show two of them going in opposite directions, that seems to be in the plains stuff. But the one article says that on the Navajo rugs and baskets, the whirling logs go one way on the outside of the basket, and other on the inside because they show through, and also the same on one side of a rug and the other. So, like in your picture, two of them, going in opposite directions. like reoccurring_dream says, the inner to the outer and the outer to the inner. Hey, that's cool.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:01 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elo Janis View Post
Comments anyone? Are there any elders in the house to answer that or do you want me to drive back to Rosebud and talk to the elders about this change that spells the end to our original and beautiful ways of life?
Oh, you shouldn't have to go out your way for information that is claimed to be meaningful, everything should come easy for you because it is owed to you and you all so deserving.

We all know that Native ways of life/teachings/ceremonies etc..have nothing to do with personal sacrifice and involvement on our part, we should just wake up one morning and know everything without having do anything except pulling out our heads out of our own azzez
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:26 PM   #48
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*Bump*. I'm keeping an eye on this thread. I don't want to have to use my thread tazer and zap this thing until it calms down... LOL. Just messin', carry on.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:38 PM   #49
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1.
2. Seeking that which no longer exists is what holds us back.
Ethnologists and Religious missionaries have had fistfights over this.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:51 PM   #50
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The Edmonton Swastikas, a Canadian womens' ice hockey team, c.1916

http://reclaimtheswastika.com/history/

History of the Swastika

Hindu temple, India. (Credit) The swastika has held a place of great importance in India and Asia for thousands of years, and is widely used by Hindus, Jains and Buddhists.

The swastika is to be seen everywhere across the Indian sub-continent: sculptured into temples both ancient and modern, decorating buildings, houses, shops, painted onto public buses, in taxis - even decorating the dashboards of the three-wheeler motor rickshaws. Many religious and spiritual books display the symbol. It may well be the most prevalent symbol one will see in India.

However, the swastika is not limited to India and Asia. Evidence suggests that the swastika was in use in many other cultures too. For example:

•The ancient city of Troy, in the northwest of present-day Turkey
•The Iron Age Koban culture of the Caucasus in Asia minor
•On prehistoric Vinca artefacts from South-Eastern Europe
•Amongst the ancient Hittites who lived in the area of present day Syria
•In Ein Gedi, near Israel's Dead Sea
•In the Tang Dynasty of China
•In the 13th Century Amiens Cathedral in France
•In ancient Greek architectural designs
•On Native American Indian artefacts including those of the Navajo and Hopi
•On pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon and Druidic artefacts

The swastika was also used widely in the pre-Nazi twentieth century:

•Dust-covers of books by Rudyard Kipling and other authors
•Boy Scouts' badges in Britain from 1911 to 1922
•Bank notes printed by the 1917 Russian Provisional Government
•Emblem of the British National War Savings Committee
•Planes of the Finnish Air force and Army from 1918 until 1944
•Latvian Air Force, 1918 until 1934
•The Icelandic Steamship Company, Eimskip, from 1914
•The Theosophical Society, founded in New York in 1875
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:53 PM   #51
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Here is a news article from Moorhead Daily News, Spet. 28, 1940:
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:52 PM   #52
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I suspect that the pressure even within Indian nations and among Indians was great to get rid of this symbol who were disgusted with what the Germans did to it.

The symbol WAS desecrated and it brings to mind yet another genocide. It also desecrates the memories of those soldiers that fought for our nation(s) against that symbol. I would not wear one ever, and I would die rather than dance with it. At one time it meant many positive things, but no longer.

This article is from the Joplin Globe. Feb 28, 1940. A few months before the other article I posted above.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:37 PM   #53
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OK, I have quills to dye, but I thought I would add some other articles. If you wanted to, you could find there was a proclamation from probably every Indian nation who formerly used this symbol.

Heroes came out of our nations, code talkers, intelligence officers, infantrymen, pilots, all across the military. Likely a relative of yours fought or wanted to against this symbol and what it stood for.

Desecrated items, symbols, ground, etc is not that way until people don't know anyone who was involved with it any more. It is desecrated for all times.

The first one: Port Arthur News: Feb 26, 1940

Second from our First Nation Canadian friends: Lethbridge Herald: March 16, 1940 (this is just a small part. The article is LONG and with pix--but for brevity, I have only the headline, sorry)

Third: Oshkosh Daily Northwestern: March 1. 1940.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:46 PM   #54
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It took me pushing this topic to the point of being a nuisance in order to receive the information I was seeking. I hope the reason I did not receive the info I was seeking is that I did not make myself 100% clear in my first few posts.
I hate when threads that were started in a positive way turn ugly because of miscommunication and misinterpretation. Many times once we get into a subject like this and the true meaning of post is misconstrued early, it is nearly impossible to salvage it in order to gain any useful information.
I readily admit my own ignorance of the true meaning and use of the svastika by the many different groups of people around the world and how they incorporated it into their own cultures and the personal meaning it then held for them.
The only thing I had known up to this point about the symbol is that it was used by Nazi Germany. To me that only significance I took away was one of hatred and ugliness.
So I sincerely thank those of you who took the time to help me understand it's existence and it's significance in the many cultures who do use it or have used it in the past. I was happy to wake up this morning and see the positive and educational responses it prompted many to post. I was afraid to revisit this thread given the tone my last post had taken, but am now glad I did come back to read as my base of knowledge has now been greatly expanded!
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:24 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
1. You're not going to find anything of our "original way of life" at Rosebud.
2. Seeking that which no longer exists is what holds us back.
3. Growth is NOT assimilation.

As for what you wear into the arena, I'm a big fan of personal expression even if most folks have no idea what you're doing.

About ten years ago, the was a cloth dress dancer who, on Sunday afternoons, would wear a 7th Calvary Stetson. First, she wasn't very tall so she was cute as a bug. Second, some folks got mad.

"How coud she wear/do such a thing? That's the mark of our oppressor..." and such bull****.

My answer? In 1876, where would she GET such a hat?

Do the math...
** 1. I made this statement about 'contacting elders' in a sarcastic manner. I fully realize that no useful information would be gained by taking this path. All that I need to know about the traditional ways of my tribe has been conveyed to me by my own family members, my unchi in particular. With the recent changes made to our regalia (used only as an example not the main subject of my ponderings)
** 2. I understand what you are saying, but respectfully disagree. We need to look back at our own tribal beliefs and ways of life and use these things as a basis for future growth. I believe, in a big way, what holds us back is a lack of organization due to trying to make changes to things that do not require change. Why fix that which is not broken? Yes, move forward but do so utilizing the basic principles which our own ancestors left for us to survive. One example is the use of sacred ceremonial songs and translating the words into English and set these words to modern musical instruments. The sacred Sundance was never meant to be made public but now I see these songs available to all on iTunes!! My Unchi would flip out and kill anyone who would even think about making these things public.
** 3. In many ways growth, as we understand it in Native life, certainly does equate assimilation to the Euro culture.
One example, as poor as it might be, is watching some YouTube videos posted by young NDNs. On these videos youngsters were taking things traditional and putting unflattering twists to them.
Watching as a non Indian, I believe their actions would be interpreted as a sign of a lack of education and an ignorance to our way of life. Watching as an NDN, I am sickened by them mocking what was once held sacred and traditional.
In the comment section under the videos after posting my common sense thoughts, I have been called derogatory names and my heritage was questioned because I did not believe in what they were doing. Their actions on the videos only serve to portray us as worthless, uneducated and ignorant.

Regarding the wearing of regalia in the dance arena, I too am all for personal expression. Life at powwows would not be what it is if not for this practice of personal expression. That said, there are ways of taking original and tribal specific articles and updating them in a modern way while still retaining the heritage they represent.
I am NOT for combining items from a wide variety of tribes and assembling them in a manner which reminds me of old westerns where regardless of the tribes being portrayed, all costumes contained the same stereotypical articles of clothing.
Take the now popular practice of women using a single eagle feather attached to the back of a 'headpiece' (not sure what you call it) and having it stand straight up. Besides probably not even receiving the feather in the traditional manner, in the proper ceremony, it looks exactly like the "squaws" as they were portrayed in the 50's. There are many other issues I am having with regalia, but this is but one example.
As a dancer, you are a representative of your own tribe. Why would you want to mix so many different elements from all tribes to the extent of not even being able to be identified as being from one particular tribe.
So unlike you, I believe that you HAVE to know what you are doing and why you are doing it before you present yourself as a representative of your tribe.
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:50 PM   #56
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Oh, you shouldn't have to go out your way for information that is claimed to be meaningful, everything should come easy for you because it is owed to you and you all so deserving.

We all know that Native ways of life/teachings/ceremonies etc..have nothing to do with personal sacrifice and involvement on our part, we should just wake up one morning and know everything without having do anything except pulling out our heads out of our own azzez
One step forward, two steps back. Thanks for your sarcasm and mocking my search for meaning of things that are important to me.
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:13 PM   #57
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Thank You docat for the articles you posted. Just by chance last night I came across the article you mentioned where Native Tribes vowed not to use the symbol or to be associated with it in any manner after the German Nazis took over the use of it and ruined the meaning for many a culture.
Yes by the way, I do have family members who have fought in every war that the US has been involved in. Their participation has always been a topic of pride for the family and more importantly for the tribe as a whole.
What I find extremely valuable to our existence as not only Native people, but as American citizens and what sets up apart from all other citizens (immigrants) of this country, is the fact that we value greatly the symbolism of our Nation's flag and the allegiance we have taken to it as a sub group of American citizens.
I can not think of any other group of people, using my Unchi as my example as patriots of the USA, who are as dedicated to the preservation of our country. Growing up with her as the maternal leader of our family I learned many things and one of the fondest memories I have of her is that she would start EVERY day by singing the Lakota National Anthem followed by the Veterans' honoring song.
I recall sharing this particular part of my growing up with a college class during one of our many debates about American Patriotism.
The overwhelmingly positive response I received from my professor and the rest of the class was amazing! The professor asked if I could share a recorded rendition of her singing these two songs and I was happy to comply.
What really shocked me in a positive manner was for the remainder of the school year in his class he would start our day of learning by playing this recording of her singing the National Anthem. It was an amazing thing to be able to provide for my class and allowed me to remember her allegiance to a country who attempted...succeded to wipe out her ancestors and our entire culture.
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:24 PM   #58
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One step forward, two steps back. Thanks for your sarcasm and mocking my search for meaning of things that are important to me.
Oh, I cant take all the credit, I think you had a hand in doing that to yourself as well!
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:12 PM   #59
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Oh, I cant take all the credit, I think you had a hand in doing that to yourself as well!
I had a hand in the sarcastic and useless comments that were made to me? And I had a hand in being mocked for searching for the meaning of something that was was not known but was still of great value to me?
I started this thread as a means to find out the meaning of a sign that now symbolizes hatred and a massive extermination of an entire peoples culture and heritage. A symbol which for a reason unknown to me at the beginning of this search was added onto to a generations long design of my family? You think this is something that I needed to take lightly and disregard? Just lighten up?
Here I am putting together beadwork that will be a part of the regalia that will represent my family for the next generation and because of not knowing the significance of a symbol and seeking out information I am putting myself out to readers like you who chose not to assist but rather discourages seeking true meanings to me and those seeing it?
I am so envious of people like you who have all the answers and do not need any assistance to keep these traditions and our culture alive?
You really should be nominated for the elder of your own tribe!!
Happy reading and should I ever need assistance in the future your name will immediately pop in my head.

RESPECT to you my friend!!
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:58 PM   #60
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I am putting myself out to readers like you who chose not to assist but rather discourages seeking true meanings to me and those seeing it?
I have not discouraged you, actually I made a helpful suggestion, you might want to go back and re-read!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elo Janis View Post
I am so envious of people like you who have all the answers and do not need any assistance to keep these traditions and our culture alive?
I never claimed to know it all – again re-read!! Everyday is a learning experience for EVERYBODY! In the event I don’t know something, I do exactly what I recommended for you to do – YES - I take my own advice, sheeesh what a concept!!!!!
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