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Old 05-18-2003, 03:04 PM   #41
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hackles

well as you can tell i just read all the post in the last 30mins and i heard someone talking about 8-10inch hackles, where can i get them at?
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Old 08-06-2003, 01:40 PM   #42
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Maroondancer:

Here is what a friend of mine did to build their son's bustle. Started out with a thick piece of rawhide and drilled a 3/4-circle of small holes. The circle itself is about 3" in diameter and each hole is just large enough to pass a leather strip.

The base-end of each feather's dowel extender is then tied and glued to a leather strip that passes through the adjacent holes. There will be a dowel extender end between each hole and its neighbor. This will allow the dowel/feather array to fold together and stored in a large tube so the feathers don't get damaged and the bustle doesn't take up alot of room during travel.

A removable spreader (can be beaded, painted, mirrored, etc.) is fastened onto the front during dance. The tension between the spreader and a sinew lace at an outer portion of the extenders balances to hold the bustle at a "conical" position (NOTE: This design is not for a swinging or hinged bustle). A section of pegboard is then fastened onto the back and is attached to a wide belt that you would wear around your waist or stomach (depending on how high you want the bustle to "ride" on you).
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Old 08-06-2003, 06:02 PM   #43
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thanks guys this has helped me alot .




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Old 08-08-2003, 09:16 AM   #44
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This is probably going to sound stupid, but whatever :) :

My question is: Is it in any way bad, disrespectful, evil, etc. to make "eagle" bustles out of painted imitation eagle feathers?
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Old 08-08-2003, 10:19 AM   #45
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I recently made a new set of bustles. When I could, I took pictures of different stages of construction. I had to borrow a digital camera. Therefore, I didn't get pictures of all of the stages, but enough to give you a general idea. This first picture is of a left wing spike, after it has been straightened.
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Old 08-08-2003, 10:20 AM   #46
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This next picture shows a left wing spike after it has been trimmed and cut to proper length.
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Old 08-08-2003, 10:27 AM   #47
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In this next picture, I have added horse hair to the tip and extended the quill with a dowel rod.

I used 1/4" dowel rods. I used regular cotton thread and Elmer's school glue to attach the horse hair.
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Old 08-08-2003, 10:33 AM   #48
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In this picture, I have tied an outer row of hackles. I tied this row over the horse hair. I found that the horse hair and glue actually strengthened the quill underneath and made a more substantial base to tie this row of hackles to.

Again, I used a little Elmers Glue and tied them with white thread.
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Old 08-08-2003, 10:37 AM   #49
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In this next picture, I have tied the second row of hackles. I allow 1.5" per row of hackle color to tie hackles.

For this, I used matching color crochet thread to tie the hackles.
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Old 08-08-2003, 10:43 AM   #50
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In this picture, I have added the inner row of hackles. This row is tied neatly as the threads will show. Try to tie all the hackles as uniformly as possible.

I matched the crochet thread to the hackle color. You can use a contrasting color thread. This will add another row of color to the bustles.
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Old 08-08-2003, 10:52 AM   #51
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I did not get the camera back to get pictures of the loops on the ends of the dowel rods.

I used nylon cable ties that I got from Home Depot. They come in all different colors. I bought ties to match the color of the bustles.

One trick that I did when attaching the loops.... I slightly flattened the end of the dowel (approximately 1" of it) in a vice. I did not tighten down on it too much, just enough to press flat surfaces on the top and bottom of the dowel.

These flat surfaces gave me a better surface on which to glue the nylon cable tie. A little Elmers Glue and wrap neatly with matching color crochet thread. Tie the ends of the thread securely and smear a thin layer of glue over the thread wrappings.

The final step was the quill wrappings. I used yarn. I find that it's really easy to work with and less time consuming than crochet thread. Plus, it's cheap and you can find it in all sorts of colors.

After all the quill wrappings were done, I strung them using plastic beads as spacers. I used a heavy shoelace for the primary laces and nylon "mason's twine" for the secondary lace.

There are pictures of the completed bustles located in the miscellaneous craft work section in the gallery. The pics were too big to post here.

I'll try to get some up-close pictures of the bustle bases soon.
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Old 08-08-2003, 11:11 AM   #52
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Oh yeah, I almost forgot. With regard to materials, each bustle has 46 spikes. (order more spikes, because there are always some that aren't usable) I used approximatley 3.5 oz of hackles per row of color per bustle. I recommend getting 4 oz per color per bustle to allow for matching arm bustles and whips. One package of cable ties, one bag of plastic crow beads from a hobby store, Elmer's glue, wooden dowels (I did not keep count on how many I used), approximately 1/4 lb horse hair and thread.
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Old 10-27-2003, 12:41 PM   #53
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Thumbs up bustle construction

bwhite u've got sum goood info on makeing bustles but u dint cover the actual construction on how the dowels are connected together and eventually put together ...hollla back
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Old 11-18-2003, 11:34 AM   #54
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Dancers nowadays are omitting that step of straightening the spikes for bustle construction. One of the reasons is that straightened spikes don't allow for much movement, especially if you're a larger dancer. Look at Joe Bointy's bustles, his are done that old oklahoma style with his spikes straightened. But watch the way they move too. They're pretty stiff! They don't bounce as much as unstraightened do.

They don't wreck and tear as much as straightened spikes do because they aren't handled as much. With straightened you get those heat blisters and accidental bends that make the spike weaker.

The thing with unstraightened spikes though is that dancers tend to pack on the spikes with as many as 25-30 spikes a side with little space in between. I suppose this gives the bustles a fuller look but they're much heavier as well. I found that by decreasing the number of spikes to 17 a side and adding an extra bead spacer (2 beads), you get the same full look without the added weight. But these are just my suggestions. Nothing more.

And what's up with dancers wearing their top bustle nearly on the back of their head so high it looks more like a headdress?! That looks dumb! Does anybody else like this look?
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Old 11-18-2003, 12:36 PM   #55
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That's interesting. I've never seen bustles with so much curve down here. Do you have a problem with some of the spikes having more or less natural curve than others? Looks like that would be pretty hard to make them very even and uniform.

As for the movement, there are some fine bustles with straightened feathers that move very well. I think the movement really depends on how they are mounted to the bases as well as the size of the centerpiece.

I think full bustles look great.... probably anywhere from 44 to 50 spikes depending on the size of the bustles.

Can you post pictures?
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Old 11-19-2003, 02:05 AM   #56
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The first thing I think about when I see unstraightened skipes is "That guy is too lazy to straighten his feathers." I respect Bingo's opinion and that's what makes fancy dancing so great, everyone does his outfit the way HE wants it. I am a 100% fan of straightened feathers.

As far as movement I agree with Bwhite (howdy by the way). I also don't like bustles that move too much. When they start flopping around and folding together I simply excuse myself to go vomit. Well, maybe that's too harsh?

Pete Moore Jr. made a set of bustles with straightened feathers in the 70s and is still dancing in them today and he has never broken a spike. I think some of Bingo Orphan's comments may have some validity, but I disagree with less movement and bounce and the"wreck and tear." If you straighten them right you don't get blisters and bends.

If you look a photos of dancers through the years you'll notice the neck bustle gets larger and is worn higher. Today the "fad" is to wear them very high. It fills the space beside the head and over the shoulders. I have seen them worn rediculously high though, maybe that's what you are talking about. But in general, I like it.
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Old 11-19-2003, 03:13 PM   #57
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After the 5 sets of bustles I've made in the last year and the beadwork that I do myself for myself and the beadwork that I do for my wife who dance both jingle and fancy shawl, my son who traditional dances, and my little daughter who also has three sets of beadwork, my regular regular day job and on top of all that the conditioning that I must do to maintain being a fancy dancer and hoop dancer, "lazy" is not something I would consider myself.

This opinion is actually shared with many other fancy dancers including Dwight Whitebuffalo and Harry Tofpi. I sat down with Dwight one time at a pow-wow and talked about this for a while, otherwise I used to also straighten my feathers just because everyone else was doing it. It was just my opinion though, nothing more. I just thought it might save some time for people like myself who have other things to do than just make one set of bustles.
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Old 11-19-2003, 03:36 PM   #58
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I think I know what you're talking about. Nowadays there really isn't much distinction as to what either northern or southern bustles are. Maybe some olders dancers may still keep to certain traditions but for the most part, it doesn't matter. What matters most is how YOU like it. I consider myself just a "fancy dancer" when I like how the southern dancers dance and especially the songs. But I'm from the North in Canada where there aren't many authentic southern songs sung. My bustles I've been told have a southern flair to them, but then I don't straighten them either which is apparently considered a "southern" thing to do. Tell you the truth the fancy dance originated in the South but many people in the North (who neccesarily don't call themselves "Northerners" by the way) do the dance, but I don't see how there could be a Northern "style" to a dance that originated in the south. Go figure!

I do have a center piece rosette that I use but it's purely for aesthetics, it doesn't hold the loops down to the back board. I guess your best bet is to figure a way to get your loops more precise so that you don't HAVE to tie them down any number of spike loops. All that is really needed is maybe a single tie at the bottom of your backboard just to give some stability to your feathers. But even then, after a while you run the risk of that tie "cutting" the string thats in your loop and breaking it so that all your spikes come out. Which would really suck during a contest!

I always thought a center rosette was a nice touch. Just something more to an outfit anyway. I didn't know that there was a distinction to not having a centerpiece as being "Northern"
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Old 11-19-2003, 03:47 PM   #59
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The Rat,

A fancy dancer that I've come to know and respect actually uses painted eagle feathers in his bustles and his are known for being unconventional. They are George Abeyta's bustles from The Shoshone Rez in Wyoming.

I think the reason dancers use those now, fancy dancers anyway, is that it's getting increasingly harder to accumulate those types of perfect feathers anymore. You factor in that you probably need about 4 good tails per bustle, a total of 8 tails altogether that are all the same size and color. Pretty hard to do nowadays. And they don't sell them at Wal-Mart.

Fancy dancers that didn't feel right about cutting eagle feathers down to hold hackles started using turkey feathers that were indispensible for the amount of torture they're put through. Again, one of those "evolution" type things.

Dancing is all about individuality. If you like what you're wearing and it looks good. Then why fret? If someone else has a problem with it maybe that's their insecurity. I know I wouldn't care, I'm too worried about how I look to notice!
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Old 11-19-2003, 03:52 PM   #60
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Bwhite and Beadman, Relax.....no I don't have a "problem" with anything. When I submit my replies I do it in a jovial manner. I'm not the type of person that gets all serious. I'm joking around most of the time and it maybe it doesn't come through in my messages. But that's what you get when you speak your mind I guess.
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