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Old 08-19-2003, 05:16 PM   #61
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Originally posted by Mato Winyan
Wow.. I can't believe this has gone on for so long.

First off I understand the thoughts and feelings here but come on... things are bought and sold on this website all the time and no one raises a stink about them.

A few of the past items have been tribal specific ribbon work.. also whole tribal specific straight suits. Beadwork with tribal designs.. fans... Southern buckskin regalia...Northern regalia.. numerous jingle, fancy and etc.. etc..

And secondly... people buy and sell regalia all the time people... fact of life... like it or not.. it happens. Only thing you can do is either not make and sell it yourself... or not buy it when it is offered up for sale. That is the only thing that someone can do that opposes it so adamantly.

So give us a break here.. if you are going to bytch about one.. bytch about em all. On second thought.. with your point being noted.. there's no need to post again. ;) :D

just another piece of information to add into this. trading is how many natives got items they needed to survive, or just what they wanted and thought was nice. think before europeans arrived there were no glass beads, cloth or snuff cans for jingles. so if natives had never sold/traded with other natives or non natives, there would be one style of dance for ladies -skin without the breastplate, beaded crown, mocs, leggings, scarfs or shawl.

not that im condoning fancystar, i'm just saying historically trading amongst tribes was not wrong. how do you think the dances spread all over the place? i mean traditional started in the north and by the time it got to the south it was sumthin different. fancy shawl was once danced with bustles. so not selling preserves what it is, but selling a part of your tribe's heritage opens it up to being altered, and possibly (most likely) misused.

agree or disagree - i could care less
 
Old 08-19-2003, 05:33 PM   #62
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Thumbs up

WELL...I AM CONDONING MISS FANCYSTAR in selling this piece of regalia....and i hope whoever buys it becomes a champion *L*

Gawwww....you guyz make me wanna to put down my beading needle and thread......is it really that baaaaaad to make an item and SELL IT?....or am i just not getting the point here?

*pokes self with needle*

:p
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Old 08-19-2003, 05:53 PM   #63
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Lumbee Turtle and TiBBy:

Yes, trading HAS forever gone on. The important thing for both of you to remember is that who ever sold or traded their clothing belonged to that tribe selling their own tribal product.

--They had the right to sell or trade their own clothing.

TiBBy don't put your needle down. Keep up the good works of beading designs that people request. This is not wrong.

What IS wrong is for a Taiwanese product to be sold under the quise as being "American Indian Jewelry."

In this case Otoe cloths made by a "Chickasaw" sold by a Cherokee and sold as "a generic contest outfit" IS W-r-o-n-g.

Isn't there a country song by this title?
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Old 08-19-2003, 06:00 PM   #64
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It's wrong , but if your gonna sell a regalia anyway( and I think you are ) then aleast exploit your own tribal dress not others. And this will be the last I'm gonna say on this thread.

You all know whats wrong from right. And I would hope that you take into consideration your traditional teachings if you were fortunate to recieve any and do the right thing. Just remember the creator knows what you are doing at all times.
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Old 08-19-2003, 08:34 PM   #65
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Originally posted by WhoMe


TiBBy don't put your needle down. Keep up the good works of beading designs that people request. This is not wrong.
oh for real! get over it! i mean c'mon! i can't believe your response to that statement!!
 
Old 08-19-2003, 08:53 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by lbgood
So just because things have been done wrong in the past justifys allowing it to continue! I'm shock at your post especially coming from a moderator. and to say that you are adopted lakota and understand ndn ways - you should know better. Dang if she was to sell items of my tribe - I would definitely report her to the Tribal Elders. Shame SHAMe SHAME.
:rofl2:
Bad Moderator... Bad...

If you ever really read my posts... you would notice that as a moderator I didn't give my personal feelings/thoughts... I gave fact. Then you seem to feel the need to make things personal.. by
Quote:
to say that you are adopted lakota and understand ndn ways - you should know better.
I forgot.. that puts me at under the magnifying glass. But thanks for the compliment thinking my words would have the weight you gave them.;)
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Old 08-20-2003, 11:55 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhoMe
_____

Miss_Kiowa,

Selling tribally identifiable clothing w/designs and selling Japanese fans should not even be compared.

Not just anyone who wants to wear Kiowa cloths can wear them can they?

If someone DID buy Kiowa "contest cloths" on the internet and wore them in front of your women Kiowa elders - especially if the person was not Kiowa - wouldn't they be asked who gave them the right to wear this outfit?
Number one, I think what you said is very insensitive to other cultures in general, to say that their cultural items are not as special as your own. The thing is, that Japanese fan, or Hawaiian chanting wrap, or Aborigine boomerang, or whatever just might have some special meaning to whoever made it. That just goes to show how unwilling you are to stop just for a minute and see other people's point of view. The point of that is (and this was a totally hypothetical situation), I didn't mean to do anything horrid and culture-raping by selling something that may or may not have had meaning to the person who made it originally. I just needed to get it out of my hands.

Number two, yes, if someone did buy a Kiowa "contest cloth," they would be subjected to our women asking them why they are wearing it. In fact, I know of many incidents where this has happened, more with buckskins, actually though. I think I made that point as well by saying that it is up to the person buying it to judge whether or not it is appropriate for herself, her daughter, grandaughter, or whoever the dress is for, to wear it. In all honesty, as irritating as it is, it's something that's just a fact of life in commercial contest dancing though. If they wore, like, a battle dress or something, I'd personally go up them and say, "uhh, take that off, that is a big NO." But if they wear some commercialized Kiowa dress, I'll usually just let it go. They look goofy, not me, and I have enough pride in my own tribal clothing to wear it and not mess with other people's.

You see, I'm not into the contest world myself, and I always see girls running around with Kiowa dresses calling them "traditional" when they're like, some southwest tribe or something and their "tradition" actually involves different clothes altogether. Yeah, it's irritating, but what can you do? Go up to the person wearing it and try to inform them that what they're wearing is wrong? That's about all you can do. I think many times people get away with this because no one has the chutzpah to go up to them and tell them, "Hey, I don't think you should be wearing that." When it does happen, I've know women who actually went and changed their outfit because the event of someone actually telling them what they were doing was wrong was rather embarrasing. They never really thought what they were doing was wrong until someone gave them their two cents.

In the end, it is the responsibility of the individual wearing other tribe's clothes to figure out what they're doing is wrong, not the person selling the dress in the first place, because, for all they know, the dress is going to someone who has the right to wear it in the first place. Heck, if you want to declare yourself the patrolman of cultural wear at powwows, I'm all for it. We need more of those. If this is truly your passion issue, I think that would be a much better investment of your time then jumping people's cases who are trying to help other people's business from going under.

Whatevs, enough of this drama for now.
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Old 08-20-2003, 12:21 PM   #68
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thread nosedive

Damn talk about heated in here I don't want to even tread in this hot water!!! Shoot I put some words up here but edited my post cuz no doubt they'd be taken in a different light and I'd get my a$s jumped on and it's no use anyways cuz sometimes on this site typing/expressing your opinions and views is like typing to a brick wall. What I posted was bascially what Miss_Kiowa said so yeah what she said. But I learned some things by reading this thread you know how tibby posted about not even feeling like beading is how I feel. I don't even feel like sewing or dancing anymore you know?? oh the power of words kinda sad when it gets like this. Too bad I'm a powwows.com addict and let the stuff on here get to me at times...lol but it isn't only me I know a friend who came on this site and said there was too much arguing and fighting on here amongst our people needless to say she and didn't come back. I don't know I think we all need to chill I think the point is well taken cuz I know I got it 2 pages ago on this thread lol Mi'iw Miigwetch for reading my words. Have a good one!

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Old 08-20-2003, 02:50 PM   #69
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_____

Miss Kiowa:

C'mon...

I couldn't be any more or a ndn cultural patrolman than you could a Japanese fan "whistle blower!" I am just calling attention on this forum to something that is WRONG.

Let's get back to the main topic: "If someone wanted to sell Kiowa cloths on the internet (hence the rights to wear them) ARE YOU giving them YOUR stamp of approval - justifying it that it is the fault of the buyer?????? H-E-L-L-OOOOOO!

Otoe people (the dress pattern in question) would be incensed if they knew someone other than a tribal member was making their cloths and putting it for sale on the internet!

_____

Lumbee Turtle:

What part of this response do you not believe?I am not being hypocritical if that's what you're implying.

My family has commissioned beaders from all over ndn country to bead our outfits. But the designs are our own and would not infringe on someone elses tribe.

What I am saying to tiBBy is that if someone has the RIGHT TO WEAR THESE DESIGNS or specific tribal outfit - and request her to bead for them - what's wrong with that?




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Old 08-20-2003, 03:29 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhoMe
_____
I couldn't be any more or a ndn cultural patrolman than you could a Japanese fan "whistle blower!" I am just calling attention on this forum to something that is WRONG.

Let's get back to the main topic: "If someone wanted to sell Kiowa cloths on the internet (hence the rights to wear them) ARE YOU giving them YOUR stamp of approval - justifying it that it is the fault of the buyer?????? H-E-L-L-OOOOOO!

Otoe people (the dress pattern in question) would be incensed if they knew someone other than a tribal member was making their cloths and putting it for sale on the internet!
Okay, go take some basic econ/poli sci classes. We operate under the system called free-market capitalism. Museums sell Native clothing, jewelry all the time. What's wrong with Natives selling it if Euro-Americans are not given the same grief just because they are institutionalized? Why ARE they allowed to sell it, because you know there's no rules controlling the sale of Native American items besides that there's some kind of "authenticity" certification process.

I don't know, that's just the society we live in. Point: It doesn't really matter if I give anyone my approval, or if they get approval from you. It's the basic right of a person to sell one's belongings, or in this case, provide advertisement for another person selling his/her belongings.

Besides, I shouldn't have to defend those beliefs in the first place because you said...
"Not just anyone who wants to wear Kiowa cloths can wear them can they?
If someone DID buy Kiowa "contest cloths" on the internet and wore them in front of your women Kiowa elders - especially if the person was not Kiowa - wouldn't they be asked who gave them the right to wear this outfit?"
...which has nothing to do with the person selling the clothing. It only refers to the person buying, and, no matter how much you continue to rant and rave, that is where I believe the moral responsibility lies in this case.

Okay, I would take your case more seriously if you were... ummm... an Otoe woman. You pretend to speak for the whole Native American world, but this is a personal morals thing. If you were an Otoe woman, and you told Fancystar, "I don't like you selling my tribe's designs," I'm sure Fancystar would have the dignity to withdraw this dress from sale because it would be your designs and the words would be coming from an Otoe person. If I saw someone selling a contest dress with oak leaves on it, I might say something.

Strange to say though, the "Native American" world isn't limited to the "old-time" or "traditional." People are more and more integrated now, and contemporary powwow clothing reflects this integrating and blurring of lines in this pretty modern "contest clothing" genre. I might look out in a contest arena and see any number of Kiowa-style dresses, but most of the designs on the dresses are contemporary and have no significance to me, so although I wouldn't say there is no problem, I'm not going to make a jerk of myself by going berserk on them. AND as a wise poster said earlier on this board, trading of clothing and designs has always taken place. Now, trading has been taken to a cyberlevel. We Native people should not be tongue-lashed for taking advantage of new technologies.

Oh, and while you're at it, take some classes in cultural sensitivity. Oppressed peoples in this country are not going to get anywhere if they can't even understand each other, and this includes Asian and African Americans, because they haven't had a pretty experience in the United States either. And, I'm pleased to say, Native Americans are not the only group of people in this country who have meaningful culture.

:(
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Old 08-20-2003, 04:16 PM   #71
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___


Miss_Kiowa:

It's me again ! , ! , !

Free market capitalism? Isn't that where museums also put the bones of ndn ancestors for sale and on display?

Native American (are you really ndn?) only academics and white people refer to themselves as Native American ie. "excuse me I am a Native American and would like to enroll in some basic econ/polysci classes!" and pass the gray poop'on while your at it!

No, in answer to your question, I am not Otoe. But I did ask my relatives WHO ARE Otoe what they thought. And they said . . .

"THIS ISN'T RIGHT! WHO IS DOING THIS????"

I agree that "we Native people should not take a tongue-lashing for taking advantage of new technologies."

But when we Native people use these new technologies to sell another tribes cultural clothing to the highest bidder (and hence, the right to wear them. . . .

Someone like me has to say NO. . .

ENOUGH. . .

THIS IS WRONG.

___

Do you think if Superndngrl (who is a female Otoe southern traditional dancer) asked Fancy Star not to sell these cloths . . .


???????????????????????? ??????????????????????


Or does capitalism and new technologies superceed this ?

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Old 08-20-2003, 07:44 PM   #72
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Geez, everyone! Come on now, take a breath, count to 10...

I can see both sides, and here is what I think - as a beader who is commissioned for outfits. Please note, I do not make outfits outright for sale, but they are special orders.

I've had people come to me and want ME to decide on the design for their outfit. I don't do this. I've also been asked to create outfits for people in styles that are not from their tribe. In most cases, I won't agree to make it unless I know for a fact the designs are theirs and/or they have permission to use them, or wear the outfit. My name is known for the work I do, and so my honor is reflected when people out there are wearing stuff I've made. Now with all the tribes represented in the community where I live, it isn't possible for me to know EVERY SINGLE tribal style and design. So I make the judgement to the best of my ability. If someone tells me a design or outfit is their family's/tribe's style, I have to take their word for it. And the way I see it, THEY are going to be the one confronted about it - not me.

You can get as picky about this subject as you want -

Who Me, you stated before that you are a "closet white guy." So let's clear up some history for everyone involved in this discussion. What does that mean? You mentioned that you have commissioned beaders for your outfits. Do YOU have the right to wear native outfits? Who gave you the right? What tribal style are they? It's always good to introduce yourself, where you're from, and who you are affiliated so that people will know where you're coming from. I know very traditional people who would say that if you are not native you do not have the right to wear ANYTHING native, no matter who you know. You see how picky people can get?

I've seen VERY well known, contest winners who buy and sell bits and pieces of their outfits all over, and there's ALOT of powwow people out there wearing outfits that are not from their tribe and that they didn't get "formal" permission to wear. You all have seen this out there on the powwow circuit. I've also seen VERY traditional people completely insulted by other beaders who refuse to do a design for them because the beader claims it's not theirs to use - when in fact the beader has no clue whether or not that person has a right to use it or not. In the case I'm referring to, the friend of mine used a family design and was told they couldn't use it because it was "taken."

And what about the tribes that didn't powwow at all traditionally? Where does that leave all the people who are from Southwest, Northwest, West Coat, and East coast tribes? If you want to get down to brass tacks and be REALLY traditional, then I guess you could say that there should be NO powwows outside of the great plains, huh?

So I guess I can see the pain this subject causes on all sides, and I guess that from my experience all a crafter can do is try to maintain a high quality of work and make good judgements. For myself, I do not create other people's designs, I do not make outfits for people who I KNOW do not have the right to wear them, and I do not steal other tribe's/people's outfits and designs. But I also DO NOT go around interrogating people who are wearing things as to whether they have the right. That is completely beneath my dignity.

I hope we can all learn to have patience with each other and keep the good discussions going without personal insults to anyone. I think that maybe Fancystar could have gone about advertising her dress for sale in a way that wouldn't have offended anyone, and maybe it's a good lesson to see how people have reacted.

However, in my honest opinion, Who Me owes her an apology for his personal attack and his wish that her business goes under. I know many people who are part of native crafters co-ops and sell their handiwork, and I have seen first hand the good it does in the native community. To wish for a business like that to go under (in some circumstances) is to wish that a native family goes hungry.
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Old 08-21-2003, 10:08 AM   #73
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______

Lightningflash:

Welcome to the discussion!



1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10! Are you happy!?

Since you are a crafts person, I can see why you have taken this position and point of view. If more crafts people and entrepeneurs were as responsible as you, there would be no problem. Unfortunately, there are those who have no problem selling tribal identity that is NOT theirs to sell.

NO. I am not a real closet white guy (Indian Sarcasm . . . another Indian should recognize this - you didn't).

Lightningflash. If you don't mind would you please write down all your credentials, ie. Name, address, occupation, phone number, email address and SS #, kids names and their birthdays and your accomplishments since the third grade, on this thread for all to see . . . then we can talk about mine

Get real. This is cyberspace.

No. I am not a cruel person. I don't wish Native families should go hungry

So back to the main question . . .

Do you condone Fancy Star selling an Otoe patterned outfit, made by a Chickasaw, sold by a Choctaw, bought by an ndn outlaw . . . because it's one of a kind?

(sorry Tim, I had to use your words on this one)



:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::
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Old 08-21-2003, 10:14 AM   #74
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Go find some other Indian movement to fight on about!
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Old 08-21-2003, 10:15 AM   #75
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How rude.:( (meaning who me's post)
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