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Old 06-21-2004, 04:05 AM   #21
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It's just a big commercial contest powwow if you don't like it and you think it is wrong just don't go, I didn't
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Old 06-21-2004, 11:13 AM   #22
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In CONTEST POWWOWS you can't please everybody. Never can. . . never will.

I have been to the Gathering since their first humble beginnings at the old University of Albuquerque. To my knowledge, the Pacheco family has never "ran" the Gathering of Nations. But they HAVE been very instrumental in the evolution of powwows in the New Mexico area.

There are two good arguments on this thread. One that women should not judge male singing groups. The other, powwows evolve and women would make good singing judges.

Since the beginning of Gathering of Nations, Derrick has broken many barriers associated with traditional powwows. This has actually started some new trends in what we now call "Contest Powwows."

Through the years, he has used: non Indians, women, actors, politicians, university sports figures and people from the audience to judge his contests including his drum contest. What do these people know about Indian singing? Some are more knowledgeable. Others are clueless. But, he is putting up the money, entitling him to run it as he sees fit.

That is the rule for ALL powwows. "The committee will run their powwow as they see fit." Sometime this
WILL backfire as, some powwows make it only one year.

Love it, leave it or not support it. Several local Indian people in the New Mexico area have tried to hold an alternate powwow at the same time as the Gathering, with little success.

If ANY women were to be chosen to be head singers, Sunny and Delia are among the most travelled and talented in Indian Country.
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Old 06-28-2004, 11:30 PM   #23
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Excellent

Wonderful Post Who Me. You have a fantastic way of getting to the Point and saying something Profound as well as seeing the Big Picture.

The only negative thing I would say is that you get to the Point and are Profound before me - But that is not a bad thing as you are so well versed in your posts and it is a true joy to read your words.

AS you have said - Powwows are local and thus what happens is mostly via the control of the Committee, etc.

We must stop kidding ourselves and realize that Contest Powwows (although our culture) are much the same as any other "contestS" that relies on human judges and points. It is very, very SUBJECTIVE! And Gathering Of Nations is not exception to having judges that are very Subjective.
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Old 09-15-2004, 11:14 AM   #24
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Maybe the guys would be happy if the lead singer from the Mankillers (an all-woman drum) was Head Judge. Women do too lead, I heard a gooooood woman lead 2 weeks ago. She was Lakota, singing very good northern, sorry, but she was as good as any man I've heard lead.
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Old 09-15-2004, 11:37 AM   #25
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Just gotta say something in here!!!!!!!! *L* Okay...if it's a drum contest....what is the big deal??? It's not like it's some spiritual ceremony. It's a POW WOW. If you're offended that women were chosen....are you insecure about your own issues of being a man??? Or are you just mad b/c you or someone you like wasn't chosen to be the head judge??? I'm sorry if I don't see how judging something that is totally seperate from culture...ie...a drum contest, dance contest, 49 contest.......I don't see how it could be looked as something "sacred" or something only MEN should be able to judge. That's just silly. Sounds like some people have major issues with any type of women in power. Now if it was about women singing at the drum...then we'd have a problem!!! *L*
Just let it go......




let it go!!!
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Old 09-15-2004, 03:32 PM   #26
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I was thinking about women judging and/or singing and I remembered what I was told about why southern men (especially) have a problem with women singing and participating in certain ceremonies. It's that women have too much power, especially in their child-bearing years. I can see why that would make a difference in ceremonies, but when money is involved like at a powwow, doesn't it make it non-ceremonial? I don't want to stir anyone up, but things are done differently in powwows than in ceremonies and people adapt to that.
Also, I've been to powwows where men were judging women dancing which I don't particularly like, but rarely do they have women judging the men as well! And I like that even less!!
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Old 09-15-2004, 05:03 PM   #27
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Talking

If you really want to stir the pot, some singers never have been to their respective ceremonies. Most know only the top songs out there on CD's. :-)
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Old 09-15-2004, 05:13 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CandaePrincess
Just gotta say something in here!!!!!!!! *L* Okay...if it's a drum contest....what is the big deal??? It's not like it's some spiritual ceremony. It's a POW WOW. If you're offended that women were chosen....are you insecure about your own issues of being a man??? Or are you just mad b/c you or someone you like wasn't chosen to be the head judge??? I'm sorry if I don't see how judging something that is totally seperate from culture...ie...a drum contest, dance contest, 49 contest.......I don't see how it could be looked as something "sacred" or something only MEN should be able to judge. That's just silly. Sounds like some people have major issues with any type of women in power. Now if it was about women singing at the drum...then we'd have a problem!!! *L*
Just let it go......

let it go!!!
__

Candae Cane,

You go girl! Tell it like it IS!




The way I see it (this is my personal opinion) . . .

"If a drum is good and can jam, it shouldn't matter who judges them. . . man, woman, transvestite *L. If the judges are knowledgable and the tabulators are non-biased and fair. . . the drum who is singing the best at any particular powwow, should win."

Maybe this is Eutopia, and too much to wish for? *L
___

RecordsADs:

You have brought up a good point. Maybe it should be posted as a thread.

___

DonnaD:

Do you think anybody would be offended if an all male drum called theirselves "The WOMAN KILLERS?" and only set-up at "two-spirit" powwows?

*L
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Old 09-15-2004, 05:24 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
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Do you think anybody would be offended if an all male drum called theirselves "The WOMAN KILLERS?" and only set-up at "two-spirit" powwows?
*L
:rofl2: :rofl2:
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Old 09-16-2004, 09:29 AM   #30
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Red face

They call themselves the Mankillers to honor Wilma Mankiller, first modern era chief of Cherokee Nation. Also Mankiller is an honored name in the Cherokee tribe. If they only set up at "two-spirit powwows" that's just because of the attitudes of a lot of men who don't like women in their playground.

I don't go to gourd dances because as a veteran of Vietnam era Army, I get pissed to be relegated to the background while a 4-year-old boy can dance with the men. Veterans or not! Just cause someone's a man shouldn't give them status as a warrior, especially if their cajones haven't even dropped! I belong to 3 different warrior societies and carry my patch on my regalia and still get passed over all the time when the men are looking for flag carriers. Geronimo had 2 women warriors in his band, there have been women warriors in every tribe I've ever heard about, so how come we get no respect?
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Old 09-16-2004, 09:31 AM   #31
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I meant to say the first modern era WOMAN chief....
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Old 09-16-2004, 09:53 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D
They call themselves the Mankillers to honor Wilma Mankiller, first modern era chief of Cherokee Nation. Also Mankiller is an honored name in the Cherokee tribe. If they only set up at "two-spirit powwows" that's just because of the attitudes of a lot of men who don't like women in their playground.

I don't go to gourd dances because as a veteran of Vietnam era Army, I get pissed to be relegated to the background while a 4-year-old boy can dance with the men. Veterans or not! Just cause someone's a man shouldn't give them status as a warrior, especially if their cajones haven't even dropped! I belong to 3 different warrior societies and carry my patch on my regalia and still get passed over all the time when the men are looking for flag carriers. Geronimo had 2 women warriors in his band, there have been women warriors in every tribe I've ever heard about, so how come we get no respect?
I will have to agree on this one. If a woman can go and fight in war, she should be shown some respect. IE-Carrying in a flag, or dancing with the color guard. As far as tribal dances though, I still dance the way I was taught....to dance on the outside of the drum. (Does this explain why I usually dance alone and not with men! *L*) Some traditions are to be respected, regardless of what you've done in your life as far as "equal" or "empowerment" obstacles overcame.
But again, we're on a topic about something that wasn't a part of our culture. American gov't military is no part of our culture, so it shouldn't be a problem for a woman to be honored in the same way a man would, when it comes to military status.


that's all.....



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Old 09-16-2004, 12:00 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D
I don't go to gourd dances because as a veteran of Vietnam era Army, I get pissed to be relegated to the background while a 4-year-old boy can dance with the men. Veterans or not! Just cause someone's a man shouldn't give them status as a warrior, especially if their cajones haven't even dropped!
__

DonnaD,

You just don't get it do you?

Gourd dance is about tradition.

No matter what tribe's origin it is - Kiowa, Comanche or Cheyenne. The rules explicitly include "NO women shaking a gourd." Even if you ARE from another tribe AND a woman veteran, please learn about why this dance is done and it's rich history.

You seem to have Eurocentric (White Ways) of thinking. . .

If you continue to believe as you do . . . you will change any tribes tradition's to fit your needs.


You don't seem to know much about the subjects you post -

Do ya?
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Old 09-16-2004, 12:51 PM   #34
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You have a western way of thinking. The Cherokee and most eastern tribes are MATRILINEAL, the women are the ones with the real power. Besides that, what's a 4-year-old doing in a warrior society. And another thing, I don't want to "shake a rattle." Just because I'm a woman who is a veteran, don't call me "white." Got it? Is that your answer to everything? Or do you just not respect any tribal traditions but your own?
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Old 09-16-2004, 12:53 PM   #35
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Another thing, ndns have fought in EVERY war fought by the U.S. Some eastern tribes supported the U.S. during the Revolutionary War, some supported the British. But the tribes have fought in EVERY war.
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Old 09-17-2004, 03:06 PM   #36
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old thread resurfaced completely off topic...

What a weird direction things took in here. To go back to the original thread, Delia and Sonny Rose did alright by most accounts leaning toward the theory that knowledgeable people will do a good job.

As far as the Mankillers head judging....sorry, not being disrespectful, but I'd give a thumbs down on that one. Seen them sing. In my humblest opinion I think they'd have an awful tough time with the whole prospect and their lack of knowledge and experience with big contest powwows would make things overwhelming.

Great topic, but over and done with. Every pow-wow has their own say in how things are run. If you can't agree with it then don't go...nobody's twisting arms. I got a lot of problems with how GON does their stuff so I haven't gone in a long time. Even if I didn't compete I wouldn't want to pay 20 bucks+ to go visit my friends so I just stay away and have far fewer things to complain about in my life ;)

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Old 09-20-2004, 09:09 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D
I don't go to gourd dances because as a veteran of Vietnam era Army, I get pissed to be relegated to the background while a 4-year-old boy can dance with the men. Veterans or not! Just cause someone's a man shouldn't give them status as a warrior, especially if their cajones haven't even dropped! I belong to 3 different warrior societies and carry my patch on my regalia and still get passed over all the time when the men are looking for flag carriers. Geronimo had 2 women warriors in his band, there have been women warriors in every tribe I've ever heard about, so how come we get no respect?
Why do people insist on thinking that the gourd dance is a VETERANS dance? IT's NOT!!! Its a mens dance, just like Mens Fancy, Mens Northern Traditional, Mens Straight!! I don't see any men trying to become Jingle Dress dancers!!
I am a gourd dancer, who HAPPENS to be a Veteran. Period. I wear my patches and ribbons on one of my blankets, on another blanket, I don't. Once again, the gourd dance is NOT a veterans dance!!!
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Old 09-20-2004, 08:19 PM   #38
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Lightbulb White People.... man those guys! My great great great gma was a cherrokee princess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numunu1971
Why do people insist on thinking that the gourd dance is a VETERANS dance? IT's NOT!!! Its a mens dance, just like Mens Fancy, Mens Northern Traditional, Mens Straight!! I don't see any men trying to become Jingle Dress dancers!!
I am a gourd dancer, who HAPPENS to be a Veteran. Period. I wear my patches and ribbons on one of my blankets, on another blanket, I don't. Once again, the gourd dance is NOT a veterans dance!!!
That's why a four year old boy can gourd dance before his "cajones drop"!, anyways why is a cherrokee(bigg butt white woman) tryna tell Kiowas about our own dance and rules and regs.????? Thangs that make you go hummm???
why don't you go stomp dance or something and get off the kiowas jock....

I bet if you posted your pic on here you would be white....
If your soo NDN post your pic.... I bet you have died black as night died hair, and wear chokers with every outfit.... we've seen your kind.... just let it go, let it go two lakes leaves falling from the stars.... I bet thats your Wannabe name.

I have a question for ya donnaD

What does 64 cherrokes in a room make???


give up





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