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Old 10-27-2005, 02:05 PM   #1
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How many singers do you need for a full crew...

If your drum group was asked to be host drum how many singers would be a good number for a contract?

8, 10, or 12

If someone doesn't show up with a full crew (per the contract - $4000) what would be a fair penalty?

Less $500 per missing singer?
Less $200 per missing singer?
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Old 10-27-2005, 03:41 PM   #2
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Talking

I don't know.... 2 or more....! 4000 divided by 2 = 2000.... two will do!
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Old 10-27-2005, 05:03 PM   #3
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most drum group have a minimum of ten singers - but it all depends who you are dealing with.

full crew 4000/10= 400 each.

missing one singer @ - $200 3800=400*9 + 1*300 or 380 each

missing one singer @ - $500 3500=380(est)*9 + 1*0 or 350 each

fyi - no lead singer will sign a contract with a stimpulation of 500 per missing singer - what if there's a death or sickness in a couple of singer's lives and cant show up? the rest of the crew loses $1000 ... a lot of coin expecially if they are all showing up for $400 each not alot of money considering if they they came a long way - next state, next country ...
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Old 10-27-2005, 09:28 PM   #4
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The down side to native people, esp. those who pow wow, are our jobs and our families. Life must go on. And if we can not take care of our homes, our families, or our jobs....what good is anything else?

Now, I'm not saying not to pow wow, but I remember times when we're all counting on a full crew of 8 (or even 5 now) and then someone finds out they can't get off of work like they had planned. Personally, I think some of the biggest keys are not always how many guys you have. I've seen times when a seven man crew....no women....wax the drum arbor with a crew of 15 head. Its all in how you bring it.

Personally, I'd much rather have a crew of 5 or 6 to no more than 8 or 9 that can really sing strong/hard and knows the songs instead of a large crew who sound like a crap. My man Chazziff is right, I would not sign a contract with a stipulation like that. I don't know anyone who would. However, thats not to say that you won't see a committee try to slide it in OR I'm assuming some of the larger dances may do this and that may be the norm.

Just some food for thought. Know what you're getting into before you do it.
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Old 10-28-2005, 08:51 AM   #5
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Old 10-28-2005, 01:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSS

Personally, I think some of the biggest keys are not always how many guys you have. I've seen times when a seven man crew....no women....wax the drum arbor with a crew of 15 head. Its all in how you bring it.
Dang Where did you hear us sing @ kuz we always wax the big crews lol.............But really like you said its how you bring it, you can havea 20man crew and still blow or even just have 5 and do it like no other!!! its all about the singing in the end....contract wise takin a $500 penalty whoa thats harsh i doubt anyone would sign that contract.....well i might so long as whoever cant make it can be replaced at an instant, but even that aint garenteed... i read in another post a about a group that charges by the distance and time that they travel which seems about right. who knows im good even if i barely come out even after a trip .....
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Old 10-28-2005, 03:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiyaanii mom
If your drum group was asked to be host drum how many singers would be a good number for a contract?

8, 10, or 12

If someone doesn't show up with a full crew (per the contract - $4000) what would be a fair penalty?

Less $500 per missing singer?
Less $200 per missing singer?

kiyaani,

The term "full crew" is misleading.

I know some singers who will pick up an entire "crew" locally and setup under "the well known drum group's name."

Inturn, the lead singer gets the lions share of the honorarium and does not have to dish out as much travel money because of the localilty of his "pick-up singers."

Of course this is not true of all drums. . .


But (*smile) I can tell when a drum hosts without it's normal singers.
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Old 10-28-2005, 04:09 PM   #8
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that is so true

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
kiyaani,

The term "full crew" is misleading.

I know some singers who will pick up an entire "crew" locally and setup under "the well known drum group's name."

Inturn, the lead singer gets the lions share of the honorarium and does not have to dish out as much travel money because of the localilty of his "pick-up singers."

Of course this is not true of all drums. . .


But (*smile) I can tell when a drum hosts without it's normal singers.

that is so true whome, ive seen it dont more then a few times, either that or a drum will split in 1/2 and attend 2 powwows at the same time under different names and still place, its funny i guess people dont really care if the group is the norm group aslong as its a good name? hmm
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Old 10-28-2005, 04:39 PM   #9
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i have been involved with many so called big name drum group through my spouse who has sang with many of them - the lead singers DO NOT like to split the group up into two groups for the same weekend. for the simple reasons of how ppl may or may not talk about them and the group may not sound "as strong" with a pick up crew.

but sometimes scheduling problems do come up - pw committees do not finalize dates or contracts right away and the group meanwhile has another comm asking them to attend for the same weekend ... so they accept that latter and then the first comm adds them to their poster without "finalizing the deal."

i have seen this happen countless times and have had to travel with one group of the singers and the other goes to the other pw ... so they feel obligated to go the one with their name on the poster so they don't get that "so and so was suppose to be host and they didn't show up" - it's a double edged sword ...

it's not like the groups (well the ones i have knowledge of) go out and look for two pw's to go in one weekend for $$ ...
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Old 10-28-2005, 09:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
kiyaani,

The term "full crew" is misleading.

I know some singers who will pick up an entire "crew" locally and setup under "the well known drum group's name."

Inturn, the lead singer gets the lions share of the honorarium and does not have to dish out as much travel money because of the localilty of his "pick-up singers."

Of course this is not true of all drums. . .


But (*smile) I can tell when a drum hosts without it's normal singers.

You know, I wasn't gonna mention that....lol....but oh well! Let the truth be known.
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Old 10-31-2005, 01:57 PM   #11
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"full" crew

being a member of the group birdtown crossing the term full crew all depends on the weekend and who all has been to practice and knows the songs. i mean there have been times when four of us would go and take care of a host job and be told we were still the loudest drum there and there has been times when we have went with 12 to 13 strong. but i really don't think a group should be penalized if everyone couldn't make it.
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Old 10-31-2005, 03:42 PM   #12
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Thank you everyone for your input. (Except Hobbs, I'm not sure who your talking to. LOL)

Anyways.....

Our committee got burned last year by one of our host drums. They only showed with 2 singers and then picked up 3 more. Our committee agreed to $4000 plus rooms for the 3 day powwow. And offered travel money. Everytime we talked to the lead singer, he promised 12 singers. We paid for a top named drum group and the committee felt like we got stiffed. So I guess we have to create a contract. That is why I'm asking all the questions.

To me "full crew" means bringing enough singers from your regular crew to sound good, then if you want you can pick up a few. I know things come up and not eveyone can be everywhere. But 2 singers and all pick-ups is not good enough, in my opinion.
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Old 10-31-2005, 07:52 PM   #13
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hmmmmm......

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiyaanii mom
Thank you everyone for your input. (Except Hobbs, I'm not sure who your talking to. LOL)

Anyways.....

Our committee got burned last year by one of our host drums. They only showed with 2 singers and then picked up 3 more. Our committee agreed to $4000 plus rooms for the 3 day powwow. And offered travel money. Everytime we talked to the lead singer, he promised 12 singers. We paid for a top named drum group and the committee felt like we got stiffed. So I guess we have to create a contract. That is why I'm asking all the questions.

To me "full crew" means bringing enough singers from your regular crew to sound good, then if you want you can pick up a few. I know things come up and not eveyone can be everywhere. But 2 singers and all pick-ups is not good enough, in my opinion.
This sounds awfully familiar!

As WhoMe stated, often times, people have "connections" in different areas to help out with the cost of expenses AND as a back up. However, I do think you are right in feeling as if you need something in writing. If not, you won't have everyone on the same page in terms of what you all are expecting. Everyone knows who is suppose to be there, where they're suppose to be, etc.

I hope that helps.
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Old 11-01-2005, 01:07 PM   #14
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KM, I'll try to post something more relavent this time. I've actually been giving some thought to this topic and everything came into focus for me this morning. There are three points I'd suggest we need to consider. I should preface my comments with the information that I've never been on either side of the contract for a drum at a powwow.

First I'd suggest that the committee should be contracting not for a set number of singers but really for the music that makes the dance go. Maybe this can be done with 2, 3, 4 or 10 depending on the group of singers. I've been at dances were groups of 5 sound just as good as groups of 9 or 10. The committee should be looking for a group that can deliver a good sound and has a depth in thieir playlist :-) that allows them to cover all the needs of the powwow; specials, flag, grand entry, contest, gourd, round, etc. If the group doesn't deliver the music as expected than I think that the committee has a ligit complaint but that complaint shouldn't be about the number of singers. (though this can very well be a contributing factor)

Secondly as a drum group we should have pride in being able to deliver the music that is required. And to enter into a contract knowing that they won't be able to deliver the depth of music or the quality is wrong IMHO. This even applies to a drum where a "full crew" is unable to deliver the music needed for the dance. For example, if a powwow is hosting some gourd dancing then they should not contract if they don't have groud songs as a part of their playlist. Same goes for a drum where they know that key singers will not be attending.

Finally, if we take the idea of penalizing a drum for not having a "full crew" whatever that really means, then what happens to a drum which is missing only one person? However, assume that person is the "right hand man" of the lead singer and kicks out some wicked leads knows alot of songs? There is technically, I think, a "full crew" at that point minus one. However, that one is very critical and could have a large impact to the overall quality of the music. So this may be an extreme example, but it just seems to me to be wrong to focus on the number of singers and not on the quality of the music.

Just my $0.02.
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Old 11-01-2005, 02:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiyaanii mom
Thank you everyone for your input. (Except Hobbs, I'm not sure who your talking to. LOL)

Anyways.....

Our committee got burned last year by one of our host drums. They only showed with 2 singers and then picked up 3 more. Our committee agreed to $4000 plus rooms for the 3 day powwow. And offered travel money. Everytime we talked to the lead singer, he promised 12 singers. We paid for a top named drum group and the committee felt like we got stiffed. So I guess we have to create a contract. That is why I'm asking all the questions.

To me "full crew" means bringing enough singers from your regular crew to sound good, then if you want you can pick up a few. I know things come up and not eveyone can be everywhere. But 2 singers and all pick-ups is not good enough, in my opinion.

Kayaanii,

In your contract, it is not unreasonable to stipulate a minimum of eight (8) singers to represent said, HOST DRUM.

Yes, I agree with some people that 5 or 6 singers can jam.

"But when you are hosting a BIG to MEGA sized powwow, this number cannot 'cut it."
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Old 11-01-2005, 09:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs49
KM, I'll try to post something more relavent this time. I've actually been giving some thought to this topic and everything came into focus for me this morning. There are three points I'd suggest we need to consider. I should preface my comments with the information that I've never been on either side of the contract for a drum at a powwow.

First I'd suggest that the committee should be contracting not for a set number of singers but really for the music that makes the dance go. Maybe this can be done with 2, 3, 4 or 10 depending on the group of singers. I've been at dances were groups of 5 sound just as good as groups of 9 or 10. The committee should be looking for a group that can deliver a good sound and has a depth in thieir playlist :-) that allows them to cover all the needs of the powwow; specials, flag, grand entry, contest, gourd, round, etc. If the group doesn't deliver the music as expected than I think that the committee has a ligit complaint but that complaint shouldn't be about the number of singers. (though this can very well be a contributing factor)

Secondly as a drum group we should have pride in being able to deliver the music that is required. And to enter into a contract knowing that they won't be able to deliver the depth of music or the quality is wrong IMHO. This even applies to a drum where a "full crew" is unable to deliver the music needed for the dance. For example, if a powwow is hosting some gourd dancing then they should not contract if they don't have groud songs as a part of their playlist. Same goes for a drum where they know that key singers will not be attending.

Finally, if we take the idea of penalizing a drum for not having a "full crew" whatever that really means, then what happens to a drum which is missing only one person? However, assume that person is the "right hand man" of the lead singer and kicks out some wicked leads knows alot of songs? There is technically, I think, a "full crew" at that point minus one. However, that one is very critical and could have a large impact to the overall quality of the music. So this may be an extreme example, but it just seems to me to be wrong to focus on the number of singers and not on the quality of the music.

Just my $0.02.

As always, I can really rely on good people like hobbs & WhoMe to help "explain the situation".
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Old 11-01-2005, 10:22 PM   #17
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My 2-cents...


When we go out to sing, I like at least 5 singers. Of Course if I can bring my full crew of 14, its always good!
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Old 01-25-2006, 12:41 AM   #18
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I sit with two drums. one has about 8 drummers/singers and about 6 lady singers. My new drum only has 3 drummers and 4 ladies. We do fine with only 3 guys. Hope we can do it with two...we are loding one for a while to the Army. God bless him.

Two guys can be enough if you have a womens row...
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:15 AM   #19
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Ok, since me and brackett481 are I guess you could say each others "right hand man", I speak for the both us when I say thank you for your responses. But, I would like to ask in terms of "full crew" what is a even split between men and women? In relation to the amount of each on the drum.
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Old 01-25-2006, 02:07 AM   #20
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Waht we do

BRWilson:

I give all my singers an even split--the ladies too!
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