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Old 11-19-2002, 01:36 AM   #1
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Looking for seasoned Oklahoma (Mid-west) Southern Singers

Any of you fit this description? I'm looking for someone I can ask questions about Ponca, Otoe, Osage, Pawnee, Apache, etc. songs. Any help?

LSS
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Old 11-26-2002, 09:28 AM   #2
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Throw your questions out. There are a lot of good singers on this board.

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Old 11-26-2002, 11:02 PM   #3
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I've forgotten my original frame of thought. But I am a bit curious as to what various songs like the Ponca Flag Song (sung by Jimmy Kemble and the gang back in the day) mean. Also, what are some pretty common Guord Songs requested at Pow Wows?

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ps - sorry about the spelling, I never was all that great
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Old 11-27-2002, 08:08 PM   #4
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Old 12-03-2002, 06:06 PM   #5
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Gourd Dancing

Just a note - I don't know what info you have already recieved. So please excuse me if I am repeating what you have already gotten.

Gourd Dancing is a seperate activity from Pow-Wows. I can see the confusion since most of the time around here at least, Gourd Dancing happens before Grand Entry at the Pow-Wow.

Actually there are formal Gourd Dances, like there are formal War Dances, if you are more familiar with Ponca Traditions? These dances are put on by Gourd Dance Societys or Associations, such as a Veterans Association, or sometimes by families. Gourd Dancers are Veterans. I don't know what may be happening in all parts of this country, but I am pretty sure that you have to be a Veteran in order to Gourd Dance. (edit 1/19/05 - this is not required)

As for the dance and songs - Credit is given to the KCA Tribes of OK - As in Kiowa, Commanche, Apache. They do Gourd Dance - have been for years. (1/19/2005 edit) *deleted* There are many gourd dance songs - some with words, some without. Some can be sung either way - one particular song, when sung with the words, is the only known Veterans Gourd Dance Song. Most Gourd Dance word songs that I know of are in Kiowa.

Gourd Dancing is somewhat structured - (1/19/2005 edit The order depends on the tradidtions the singers were taught) there is an order that the songs are sung in. For example, There is a starting song, and an ending song - each is sung once. How we were taught is The first four should be - Starting Song, Chief White Bear, Barking Song, Johnny Reed Song. (There is another song that can be sung instead of Johhny Reed, but I dont't remember the name right now. Some of the older singers may sing that, and it is still correct)

If someone inadvertantly sings the ending song during the gourd Dance, then the dance is over. In reality, if it was a legitimate mistake, the dance could continue or you could start again. But that is up to the drum chief / head singer and the head Gourd Dancer, who run the Gourd Dance. I say this because it has happened to our drum - another singer came up and helped us with the Gourd Dance session, and he helped us end it early. We started over.

Since there is such strict history and traditions behind Gourd Dances, you should not ever here a Gourd Dance song as part of the "Intertribal Dancing" at a Pow-Wow. Besides, the songs don't work well for regular dancing.

As for requests, most of the time there aren't really any since there is a set order to what songs are sung and when. Any requests are usually filtered through the head Gourd Dancer - who then makes the request of the drum for the song. There are family songs, that belong to certain families, such as the Zotigh Family. Usually any requests are from a certain family to hear their families Gourd Dance Song.

At times the head gourd dancer will call someone to be recognized, during the dance - simply in recognition of a dancer or VIP- then usually the drum sings whatever song is next in the order.

I hope that I have answered some questions - Thanks.

Jordan

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Old 07-01-2004, 03:21 PM   #6
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Question Ending song?

What ending song are you talking about? Buffalo dance songs?

A lot of people think of the gourd dance song "Charlie Brown" (a.ka. Komalty Song) as a "closing song." However, since gourd dance songs usually build in intensity as the dance goes on, the last gourd dance song usually is "Charlie Brown" because it's one of the fastest and is, many times, expected to be sung at gourd dances. Officially, the buffalo dance is used to close out gourd dance sessions, but there are some singers who don't sing the buffalo dance songs at the everyday-style gourd dances. Could be because they save them for the 4th of July ceremonials. Can't answer that one exactly.

I've also been at gourd dances (Kiowa Tia Piah annual) where a Kiowa elder requested "Charlie Brown" for her special. I heard her say specifically "Charlie Brown," and that was the song that was sung. I also saw the same thing at a gourd dance in Comanche country there in Lawton. The gourd dance wasn't "started over" because that song was sung.

Just my two cents, and until I got paid yesterday, it was all the aulhaungya I had. Just kau aun, enit?

T.O.
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Old 07-01-2004, 04:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg Stylez
Gourd Dancing is a seperate activity from Pow-Wows. I can see the confusion since most of the time around here at least, Gourd Dancing happens before Grand Entry at the Pow-Wow.

Gourd Dancers are Veterans. I don't know what may be happening in all parts of this country, but I am pretty sure that you have to be a Veteran in order to Gourd Dance.

As for the dance and songs - Credit is given to the KCA Tribes of OK - As in Kiowa, Commanche, Apache. They do Gourd Dance - have been for years. These tribes were given the dance by the red wolf - hence the "howl" at the end of each song.

If someone inadvertantly sings the ending song during the gourd Dance, then the dance is over. If it was a legitimate mistake, you could start again, from the begining- but that is up to the drum chief and the head Gourd Dancer, who run the Gourd Dance.

As for requests, there aren't really any since there is a set order to what songs are sung and when. Any requests are usually filtered through the head Gourd Dancer - who then makes the request of the drum for the song. There are family songs, that belong to certain families, such as the Zotigh Family.

I hope that I have answered some questions - Thanks.

Jordan
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Where did you get all your information?

All I can say at this point is: Buhhhhhhh? Whaaayyyy! GAAWWWW! Yikes! Damn! and Ayeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!







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Old 07-02-2004, 12:35 AM   #8
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"Charlie Brown" is not a quiting song just as there is no such thing as a Supper Song.

If I remember correctly there was a reason "Charlie Brown" got that name. If I remember correctly an elder told me a long time ago that that song was also givin to one Major Charles MacKenzie Brown, US Army sometime around the late 1800's or very early 1900's. But I'm not exactly sure, so I'll have to ask about that again. (I know someone asked about that somewhere in a post.)

And also the Gourd Dance is not for just Veteran's. The Kiowa Veteran's Society is the Black Leggings. I've belonged to the Tiah-Piah Society since I was 14 years old. When I came home fromt the Navy, then I was inducted to the Kiowa Black Leggings.
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Old 07-02-2004, 01:20 AM   #9
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Sorry folks....we're talking about approx. two years since I posted this thread....I've matured since then and, as you can see....I've changed my name.

But again, I can't remember what my goal was here. I am familiar w/ the Starting Song, "Charlie Brown", and the Buffaloe Dance. Now, forgive my ignorance here, I can't remember all the names of the last few dances b/c most of the time I get to sing Gourd is maybe two or three times a year and it's merely an exihibition before the pow wow as you have mentioned. The Starting Song is the Starting Song, no matter what language...LOL...and seems as if I recognize the next three or four songs no matter what (well, at least depending on who is singing and within that set up, whose sitting where...lol). Now, at the end, I don't remember what order I've heard it, but if I had to put money on it (which, btw, I don't have any due to these damn high gas prices...lol), I would say I've heard "Charlie Brown" and then the Buffaloe Dance(s).....

Am I thinking correct here more than likely folks?

Also, is there more than one Buffaloe Dance people normally sing? Give me another year or two at the rate I'm going and I'll probably have the beginning and endings down pretty snug.

LSS
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:07 PM   #10
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well im told that there are no ending songs tridishionally. ending songs indicate that the dance and all of its values are over. these societies have values and morals that keep on gion after they have "paused" in the dancing portion. so really there are no ending songs. charlie brown can be sung during the gourd dance as a song or for the family it belongs to. even the ponca ending song or as it is called is jus a veteran song. so remember there is no ending songs cuz the society doesnt end it pauses the dance portion.
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Old 08-06-2004, 03:09 AM   #11
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I've been told and heard from various peoples that "charlie brown" was a old bar song that was sung at last call, thats just what i heard, dont mean to ruffle feathers. Ole by the way poncas have several songs they close with.
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Old 08-15-2004, 09:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSS
Is there more than one Buffaloe Dance people normally sing? Give me another year or two at the rate I'm going and I'll probably have the beginning and endings down pretty snug. LSS
there are lots and lots of buffalo songs. And most of the gourd dance songs belong to certain families or individuals and lots of them songs have words. like other ppl have said on here there is no set order.

When ya'll sing gourd dance songs do you keep the gourd dance beat? who taught you gourd dance songs, just wondering?
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:17 PM   #13
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Somethings Don't Change....

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
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Jordan, Jordan, Jordan. . .

Where did you get all your information?

All I can say at this point is: Buhhhhhhh? Whaaayyyy! GAAWWWW! Yikes! Damn! and Ayeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

You're not serious are you?
I made my original post here two years ago. What part of what I posted are asking about? At this point, I have been singing for several years, and so far haven't found anything that was much different than what I posted, unless it was a bunch of people who had no clue.
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Old 01-19-2005, 12:51 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg Stylez
I made my original post here two years ago. What part of what I posted are asking about? At this point, I have been singing for several years, and so far haven't found anything that was much different than what I posted, unless it was a bunch of people who had no clue.
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Dawg,

If you look at your original post two years ago, you posted several inaccuracies. People who are wanting to learn about the gourd dance actually come to powwows.com for information. Sometimes this information that is posted on pws.com (both accurate and inaccurate) is passed on by individuals who read these threads.

I made my original quote on post #7. There are five sentences that are inaccurate and are highlighted in gray.
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Old 01-19-2005, 01:32 PM   #15
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My apologies - for some reason I do not see the highlighted text. It may be my browser settings.

I re read my original post, and clarified / corrected some items. It may not agree with what you were taught, however it does not make the information wrong.

In no way should these posts / threads be considered the final authority on anything. As with anything, traditions can be changed, rules can be bent. In no way should any of our views be taken as THE way to do something. Reading something on a web site does not make one an expert on anything. Unfortunately, too many people think it does.
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Old 01-19-2005, 07:00 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg Stylez
My apologies - for some reason I do not see the highlighted text. It may be my browser settings.

I re read my original post, and clarified / corrected some items. It may not agree with what you were taught, however it does not make the information wrong.

In no way should these posts / threads be considered the final authority on anything. As with anything, traditions can be changed, rules can be bent. In no way should any of our views be taken as THE way to do something. Reading something on a web site does not make one an expert on anything. Unfortunately, too many people think it does.
__

Thanks for your apologies Dawg. I need to apologize too. I think you took what I said as, "speaking to impress, rather than to inform."

I am trying to inform. Let me just share with you concerning what I feel are inaccuracies in you post...

1. The give away is a traditional part of powwows that is still observed. In most southern powwows, gourd dance songs is requested to be rendered on behalf of the honorees. They occur throughout the powwow sporatically as they are needed.

2. You DO NOT have to be a veteran to gourd dance. Among the Kiowa, some of the headsmen who lead the gourd dance societys are NOT veterans.

3. The Apache are not credited with gourd dance origins.

4. There is no "true" quitting song for gourd dances. If the song "Charlie Brown" (which is often used as a the last song of the gourd dance) is inadvertantly sung during a gourd dance session the gourd dance normally continues. There is no "drum chief" who runs a gourd dance.

5. During a giveaway during the powwow and gourd dance, special gourd dance songs ARE requested to be sung on behalf of the honoree (at most southern powwows). Requests are filtered by the honoree directly to the head singer.
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Old 01-19-2005, 07:11 PM   #17
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If you noticed, I did go back today and correct some of those items that you pointed out, such as the statement about veterans. In some areas, there are still some dancers that think this is a requirement to gourd dance.

In reference to the drum chief / lead singer (drum chief might be a bad choice of words) it is often between him, the AD(if there is one), and the head gourd dancer to keep things going / flowing.

I did not make any references to give aways, and don't recall seeing a give away as part of a gourd dance. When I say give away, I am talking about when someone gives away a whole bunch of stuff. Then again, I don't pay attention to much that happens outside the drum.....

And I apologize if I came across in the wrong way. One other thing to note, is I don't know how far off topic we got, since there is a seperate gourd dance thread.
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Old 01-20-2005, 05:35 PM   #18
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Dawg, I think Whome is telling you that gourd dance is sung threw out the pow-wow, mainly what we call a one on one, thats were a war dance song is sung for the first part of a speical, then a gourd dance song to finish out the the speical, but. I say BUT.... when the gourd dance session is closed out, there shouldn't be a gourd dance songs render, after that for the rest of the evening. Thanks what I was taught..... Whome is just tryna help, and not being an A ss hole about things, so don't get your kawdayz all bunched up...

Gaw!
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Old 01-20-2005, 05:49 PM   #19
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Yep, exactly. We do things the same way. And once the session is closed, it's closed. You may have me confused with another post. :)
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Old 01-23-2005, 10:58 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg Stylez
In some areas, there are still some dancers that think this is a requirement to gourd dance.

"Then ask one of them why they think this?" Outside of southwest Oklahoma, there are many misunderstandings and broad interpretations of what gourd dancing is.

In reference to the drum chief / lead singer (drum chief might be a bad choice of words) it is often between him, the AD(if there is one), and the head gourd dancer to keep things going / flowing.

see answer number one *L (what happened before there were no arena directors and head gourd dancers?)

I did not make any references to give aways, and don't recall seeing a give away as part of a gourd dance. When I say give away, I am talking about when someone gives away a whole bunch of stuff. Then again, I don't pay attention to much that happens outside the drum.....

see NDNtacos post (you might consider paying attention to what happens outside the drum. . . especially if everyone else has already left) *L
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