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Old 12-10-2006, 06:06 AM   #1
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Old Recordings of Songs and Knowledge...

I'll probably get kicked in the teeth about starting this thread...but what the heck...

What do you guys think of the old recordings of songs and knowledge that have been released that are circulating our Pow Wow Trails? I'm talking about those recordings like the ones narrated by John Orns (sp?) and Earl Finner (sp?) with all the Ponca Songs on it.

In your replies, I'd like for someone who knows about this recording and others to share why they understand them to be in existence in the first place. Should these recordings even exist? Should people sing these songs at pow wows?
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Old 12-10-2006, 06:26 AM   #2
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I don't know about these particular recordings but I would have to ask how they got these teachings #1. And who gave them the right to put these out there #2.

Myself I have a prob with just the fact some people that do this say how they are trying to preserve these songs.....blah blah blah ......but they are not making these songs available to colleges and museums but rather the general public and just so happen they also get some profit on the side for their own pockets.

(now here's where I'll get kicked)
I know who Earl is, don't know about the other guy for sure or not....... but my question is..... Since Earl is a guest of the native culture...... why would he think it was his duty to put these songs out there?
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Old 12-10-2006, 06:51 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mato Winyan
(now here's where I'll get kicked)
I know who Earl is, don't know about the other guy for sure or not....... but my question is..... Since Earl is a guest of the native culture...... why would he think it was his duty to put these songs out there?
I don't necessarily think its Earl and John who feels it is their duty...I could be wrong, but maybe the gentleman they interviewed, who is now with the Creator, felt it his duty at the time. I really do not know who claims duty to this (and these) recordings and the circumstances surrounding this recording and others.

All I know is that they are out there!
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When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given.

Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!
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Old 12-10-2006, 02:08 PM   #4
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I know both of these men also and would think that they have enough respect NOT to do that by their own volition.(sp?, syntax, me just trying to sound smart)

they have been singing for a long time and with tons of other singers. If you have a ? about southern culture and there is no NDN around, they are the people to ask.

I dont really know of this recording because its not my style, but I would hope they arent making a profit, or if they are, it is going somewhere good.

On ebay someone is selling CDs of songs downloaded from the Omaha Indian Music Website.I emailed the site and they acknowledged my email but havent done anything about it yet. Over a year ago!

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/omhhtml/omhhome.html
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Old 12-10-2006, 02:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyjoejimbob
I dont really know of this recording because its not my style, but I would hope they arent making a profit, or if they are, it is going somewhere good.http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/omhhtml/omhhome.html
Like I said, I really don't know what the stipulations of this recording (and others). But right now, my question is in reference to the general and overall feel of these things existing.
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To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference.

When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given.

Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!
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Old 12-11-2006, 10:13 AM   #6
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While I don't personally know Mr. Fenner & Dr. Orens I have heard of each. I know of at least one of the recordings that LSS asks about. While these men can speak for themselves, let me say that I don't agree that they should be singled out. There have been people, granted mostly non-native, who have preceeded them and come after them who have studied and written about native music. So to call them out in this forum, IMHO, is wrong.

I have seen some notes regarding a recording attributed to these men specifically around the old "War Dance Songs of the Ponca" recordings from Indian House. In these notes, it is stated that "this material is freely shared with those of you who seek it. We expect that you will continue to share this material in the same spirit it was given." So to suggest that this is a "For Profit" venture is incorrect. In fact, the reader is encouraged to buy the Indian House recordings later in the notes.

As to the motivations, these notes state, "In November of 1986, the entire collection of material was placed in teh American Folklife Center, The Library of Congress, Washington, D.C. This is what Harry had wanted done with the material. He wanted it perserved forever. We do not know when it will be publicly available. We placed the material in the Library with no restrictions. At some future time, the tapes will be made available for duplication."

That's about all that I know about the recording that I think you're talking about.

As I said previously, these are not the first and won't be the last such recordings. 20-30 years from now, I will guarentee that there will be recordings and/or documents regarding songs being made today.

One last note, Mr Fenner and Dr. Orens are NOT the ones singing and/or explaining the songs.

Last edited by hobbs49; 12-11-2006 at 10:15 AM..
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Old 12-11-2006, 06:19 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs49
While I don't personally know Mr. Fenner & Dr. Orens I have heard of each. I know of at least one of the recordings that LSS asks about. While these men can speak for themselves, let me say that I don't agree that they should be singled out. There have been people, granted mostly non-native, who have preceeded them and come after them who have studied and written about native music. So to call them out in this forum, IMHO, is wrong.

I have seen some notes regarding a recording attributed to these men specifically around the old "War Dance Songs of the Ponca" recordings from Indian House. In these notes, it is stated that "this material is freely shared with those of you who seek it. We expect that you will continue to share this material in the same spirit it was given." So to suggest that this is a "For Profit" venture is incorrect. In fact, the reader is encouraged to buy the Indian House recordings later in the notes.

As to the motivations, these notes state, "In November of 1986, the entire collection of material was placed in teh American Folklife Center, The Library of Congress, Washington, D.C. This is what Harry had wanted done with the material. He wanted it perserved forever. We do not know when it will be publicly available. We placed the material in the Library with no restrictions. At some future time, the tapes will be made available for duplication."

That's about all that I know about the recording that I think you're talking about.

As I said previously, these are not the first and won't be the last such recordings. 20-30 years from now, I will guarentee that there will be recordings and/or documents regarding songs being made today.

One last note, Mr Fenner and Dr. Orens are NOT the ones singing and/or explaining the songs.
Hobbs,

Well said. I hope my original post did not incenuate that I was belittling these two individuals. The only reason they were mentioned is because it, I believe, is probably the most popular one out there that exist at this time. I could be wrong....it won't be the first time. But yes, you are right...there are several others out there. If I had mentioned anything about a Pawnee tape, Kiowa tape, etc., then I would have raised a hellofa big pile of stink I think (did I just make a funny?)

I guess my big question here has to do with how people (and I myself included) recommend learning from 1-on-1 contact if at all possible and how these recordings are viewed as "a treasure" if you will.

So, my caution is to chew on the idea of using these items as "learning tools" if you will and not place your focus on those gentlemen. Because, as far as I'm concerned, these gentlemen have nothing to prove to anyone.
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To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference.

When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given.

Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!
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Old 06-05-2007, 10:39 AM   #8
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There have been lots of Ponca recordings made, and they are "floating around." In the 1950's, Lamont Brown used to record his own 78's at the Wilcox-Gay Company in Ponca City. He would sell them. The records were haha dark red in color, not black! In the 60's Lamont and Sylvester Warrior made some cassette tapes with translations in Los Angeles. At one point in time, Francis Eagle recorded "appreciation songs". Jim Steiner recorded Metha Collins singing love songs. A number of tapes have been made, some excellent and some of questionable quality.

Fenner and Orens went to the source, so to speak, when they approached Harry Buffalohead with the idea of recording Ponca songs. Harry was a native speaker and had been at the drum a long time.

The result was a collaboration; Harry wanted to record. What makes their work a "treasure" is that they abstracted and numbered the songs and translations and put them in written form. Exactly how the written forms and recordings were and are retrieved from the Library of Congress is a mystery to me. I think that sometimes the written material is passed around without the recordings and vice versa. If they are together, then one can more easily learn something.

As to judging the usefulness of the work, etc., I can only say that it is "out there", and we'll take a look-see in the future.

Last edited by Gledanh Zhinga; 06-08-2007 at 02:33 PM.. Reason: spelling
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