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Old 08-16-2005, 05:29 PM   #21
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Judges will score points according to their life's experiences when it comes to southern singing (well actually all dancing and singing)*L

If you were raised around the drum among a tribe with rich southern powwow traditions, you will judge accordingly.

If you are judging a southern singing contest and have no foundation or tradition with southern singing - other than seeing drums on the powwow trail - you will judge accordingly.

It is a great idea to think about combining a no./so. contemporary singing category. In this category, innovations, trends and blending of no./so. singing will be rewarded!
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Old 09-07-2005, 06:52 PM   #22
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More of my 2 cents

Well I agree with some people saying that singing southern should be a traditional thing, BUT being a person who sings on a drum and knows a few people who do sing Southern, My input is that if you want to do the contest thing then you should show everyone the dancers, visitors, judges that your drum has been practicing so that your voices match up, and when you get that you know you can pass the lead to your fellow drum member. If people are making this southern should stay traditional type of deal it comes down to this don't even contest!
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Old 09-09-2005, 12:47 PM   #23
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passing the lead

I would like to comment but I don't have enough space. I would just like to say that the strictness around the drum has gone away since I tried to learn to sing. In my teenage years I wasn't allowed to hit the drum until I could start a song four times through. This was discouraging as a youngster so I continued to dance. I remember the teachings clearly.
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Old 09-09-2005, 02:05 PM   #24
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Again it boils down to...

The closer you get to Oklahoma (the mecca of southern singing), the stricter traditional rules will be taken into consideration in southern drum contests.

The farther away you get from Oklahoma, the less knowledge true southern protocol is involved - in judging southern singing contests.

Is this valid?
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Old 09-13-2005, 01:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Again it boils down to...

The closer you get to Oklahoma (the mecca of southern singing), the stricter traditional rules will be taken into consideration in southern drum contests.

The farther away you get from Oklahoma, the less knowledge true southern protocol is involved - in judging southern singing contests.

Is this valid?
I think that it's probably very valid assuming that the judges are also not from OK. I'm just really starting out singing, but what you are suggesting makes sense if the competitors and judges share a similar understanding of "true southern protocol."

It seems that real problems could occur if the judges have a stricter understanding of southern protocol than is actually practiced in the region of the competition.

It's kind of like Chinese food. What we eat in Raleigh isn't really the same as what they eat in San Fran and what they eat in San Fran is different yet than what they eat in Beijing. It's all Chinese food, but it varies in it's authenticity as you get closer to those who live it.
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Old 09-13-2005, 04:37 PM   #26
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Thumbs up

My nephs started mixing leads a few summers ago. They were up north, pow-wowing back to back, and they found it saved their voices and gave their songs a little change-up. It may be contemporary, but this ol' schooler thought it made sense. Now, I don't think they could get away with that at home, but it sure sounds good. Myself, I would have voted for the lead.
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Old 09-14-2005, 10:27 AM   #27
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs49
It's all Chinese food, but it varies in it's authenticity as you get closer to those who live it.
hobbs4,

That is a funny comparison. But kinda the truth. I have eaten American Chinese and Chinese Chinese foods. Live octipus taken from a tank and put in a skillet tastes ALOT different - than sweet and sour chicken!

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So if a southern drum changes leads 4-times, is asked to sing a chicken dance song (in drum rotation), sings highpitched, abandons the three beats in the middle, adapts northern down beats/honorbeats/accent beats etc., have all regalia dressed singers. . .

Is it still considered - "Southern Singing?"

_


Also...


If an Englishman imitates southern style singing at a British powwow....

Is that southern singing?
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Last edited by WhoMe; 09-14-2005 at 10:32 AM..
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Old 09-14-2005, 11:14 AM   #28
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I say, chap

As you said, I think that's called Southern "Style" Singing (?).
Just like the fully-beaded Lakota "Style" moccasins he would be wearing while singing same.

Here's another question, why would any Southern drum be called on to sing a Chicken dance song, drum rotation or not? That's like asking a Northern drum to sing a trot song for straight dance (and I don't mean a Crow hop).

Speaking of mixing things up, my personal fave are all of those purdy Kiowa grass dance songs....
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Old 09-14-2005, 11:53 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
So if a southern drum changes leads 4-times, is asked to sing a chicken dance song (in drum rotation), sings highpitched, abandons the three beats in the middle, adapts northern down beats/honorbeats/accent beats etc., have all regalia dressed singers. . .
You forgot to mention tank tops and shorts at the drum :-)

But seriously, I find your sentiment very interesting. I've got commercial recordings of highly popular suthern drums who are often mentioned on this board singing northern songs and not in a southern way. They may not be as highly pitched as the northerners, but no middle beats, northern accents, three beats to end, etc. Are those groups suddenly "northern drums" at that point? I'd say no, rather I'd say they are southern drums singing northern songs. (BTW, there would probably be a thread on the Northern Singing board complaining about those southerner's trying to sing "their" songs :-)

I think that this thread is about singing in the right way. The hidden question is who decides what is "right." In an earlier post you mentioned OK as the mecca of southern singing. I agree, but not being from OK nor spending much time there recently, I'm left wondering does everyone there really follow the same set of rules? Are there no tribal differences at least? While it may not be mainstream, I find it very difficult to believe that a lead hasn't been passed during a song somewhere, today, in OK.

With such a diversity of history/tradition/custom/worldview that exists in the native southern cultures today, I find it difficult to believe that there are any absolutes anymore. There is only mainstream. And my feeling is that as time progresses, the mainstream, like any stream in nature, is apt to change it's path.
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Old 09-14-2005, 11:58 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by park
As you said, I think that's called Southern "Style" Singing (?).
Just like the fully-beaded Lakota "Style" moccasins he would be wearing while singing same.

Here's another question, why would any Southern drum be called on to sing a Chicken dance song, drum rotation or not? That's like asking a Northern drum to sing a trot song for straight dance (and I don't mean a Crow hop).

Speaking of mixing things up, my personal fave are all of those purdy Kiowa grass dance songs....
park,

Good answer.

Minnetonka moccasins are ... well, Lakota named but... well... generic moccasins with an Indian theme?


Ask any southern drum who has traveled to the northwest border states with southwest Canada (there are many). Chances are, they have been asked to sing whatever song comes up in drum rotation. This includes jingle, grass AND Chicken.

The southern drums I have sung with in Washington State and Alberta, have been asked to sing a Chicken Dance song. So we did!



When in Rome.....
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Old 09-14-2005, 03:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs49
(BTW, there would probably be a thread on the Northern Singing board complaining about those southerner's trying to sing "their" songs :-)

... not being from OK nor spending much time there recently, I'm left wondering does everyone there really follow the same set of rules? Are there no tribal differences at least? While it may not be mainstream, I find it very difficult to believe that a lead hasn't been passed during a song somewhere, today, in OK.

With such a diversity of history/tradition/custom/worldview that exists in the native southern cultures today, I find it difficult to believe that there are any absolutes anymore. There is only mainstream.

Hobbs4,

No, yes and no. *L

As powwows continue to infiltrate new horizons, unknowledgeable individuals apply their standards of what a powwow is and Indian culture in general, according to their own life's experiences. With this limited standard of experience, strange things occur. Make sense?

However, there are still regions both in the US and Canada where tradition is still heavily favored, in place of what goes on elsewhere. Oklahoma is one example, when it comes to Southern singing. There are also dances that originated in Oklahoma that also adhere to traditional protocol, even during contests.

At many of the mega powwows, this level of traditionalism is often compromised. While it is true, southern 'style' singing changes outside of Oklahoma. So does northern style singing outside of its origin. As a result, most well known contemporary northern drums can definitely do a decent job singing a southern style men's fancy dance song when called upon.

Leads are passed on several times by younger Southern singers who have adopted it as part of the current modern contest powwow trend. However, in the center drum of a large Oklahoma powwow, this is NOT done.

I have witnessed recently where, older and knowledgeable singers will not come help younger singers who sing with established "contest drums" when they are asked to be a head singer. So what you find is a bunch of young singers around the drum and older singers sitting ... and watching and often shaking their heads.

Since you indicated you have not been to Oklahoma recently, you ought to come to Ponca powwow, Otoe Powwow or Pawnee powwow.

You will then be able to witness for yourself an absence of "mainstream" southern singing.
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Old 09-14-2005, 03:47 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Since you indicated you have not been to Oklahoma recently, you ought to come to Ponca powwow, Otoe Powwow or Pawnee powwow.

You will then be able to witness for yourself an absence of "mainstream" southern singing.
WhoMe,

First off, thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me online. I genuinely appreciate the time and views that you've shared with me!

Actually a trip to Oklahoma is in my plans for next year. Where I'm at there are very few people to actually watch do things the right way and I'm anxious to get out there to see it done well and maybe start some friendships :-) As I stated before, I'm really just starting out with southern singing and I wanted to be more knowledgable before I started the pilgrimages to OK, so I could better understand and interpret what I see and hear. I want to believe that I'm approaching that point though I may be fooling myself :-( But I'm going to do it anyway :-)
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Old 09-14-2005, 07:48 PM   #33
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Old 09-14-2005, 09:04 PM   #34
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Thank you, Who Me...... I couldn't have wrapped this topic up better myself. There is nothing like the 'big drum' and the importance of it. I would encourage anyone with curiosity to go to Otoe, Ponca or Pawnee pow-wows next summer. It hurts to know that the old men sit out and let the young men have at it. That's why our songs are changing, too. Have you ever noticed how fast some drums are singing these days??? Geeze, you can't even get in the groove! I've watched many straight dance and women's traditional competion. It looks like the dancers are running around!! LOL..... I hope this trend changes up pretty quick! :) We as the upcoming elders should start trying to coach the young contemporaries. Alot of them don't even participate in tribal dances, handgames, feasts, etc. any more. That is why those old ways are disappearing.
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Old 09-15-2005, 08:41 AM   #35
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