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Old 09-18-2006, 05:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii
What about the Hochunk "snake dance". D'ya guys consider Hochunk singing "southern"?

BTW, I heard one of the Hochunk snake dance songs being sung by one of the host drums at Schemitzun this year. It was changed a little but this song was distinctly the snake dance song that I've heard many, many times. It was Youngblood who sang it.
Kiwehnzii,

The HoChunk snake dance is unique and is not followed by a plains buffalo dance.

I have seen where HoChunk/Winnebago drums have competed against southern drums in the southern category. I have also seen where some HoChunk/Winnebago drums have competed against northern drums.

Go figure?
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Old 09-19-2006, 03:21 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Yes, the southern plains snake dance is Tiwa in origin. The drumbeat for the southern plains snake dance is a pueblo beat. If you listen closely, you can hear elements of pueblo (Tiwa) singing.

According to information given to me from Bill Koomsa Jr., the Kiowa learned their version from the Taos Tiwa relatives who live in Isleta Del Sur, in Texas. The Kiowa have a long history of relations with the Isleta Del Sur Tiwa's due to the close proximity of the Juaco Tanks (pronounced Waykow), which the Kiowa used as a watering hole while raiding.

That's cool, and the part about HUECO Tanks makes A LOT of sense..... so I'm not necessarily disagreeing w/ you or Mr. Koomsa, but I've heard a couple other explanations. First, every time I've heard the Kiowa name for the snake dance - Tegua kunga (feel free to correct my spelling here) - it was translated as "Pueblo dance" w/o specific reference to any particular Pueblo. The Kiowa word Tegua (like in "check out that Tegua ki with the big Tegua bote and that short Tegua ma" hahaha!) sounds very much like "Tewa" rather than "Tiwa" (again, WhoMe, feel free to correct me here). I've always understood that name was applied to all of the Pueblos - a friend of mine from Santa Ana mentioned that they use the word "Kumants" to refer to all southern Plains tribes, Comanches, Kiowas, Kiowa-Apaches - kinda the same idea in reverse.

The choreography of the southern Plains snake dance closely resembles the Darawa'e (pronounced like Dah-dah-wai) dance of the Keres Pueblos (Acoma, Laguna, San Felipe, SD, Cochiti, Zia, Santa Ana) - in fact that dance is colloquially referred to as the "follow the leader dance." The arm movements are similar to what WhoMe mentioned... A story at Laguna says that a group of Comanches and Kiowas was raiding Navajos in the area when one of their men was wounded. A Laguna medicine man healed him, and as a show of mutual respect they gave each other a dance (a completely orthodox practice for Plains tribes, btw). The "Kumants" dance @ Laguna has choreography very similar to the Comanche Tuuwii dance and some elements from the Kiowa's Black Leggins; song stuctures are very reminiscent of southern Plains society songs too. It may be that the Darawa'e was the dance given in return.

Another possibility is that on a couple of the Kiowa calendars (don't remember which ones) during the 1880s and 1890s, there are visits to the Kiowas by Pueblo people depicted as the entry for a given year or summer (check out Mooney's book on calendars for the specific year). However, which specific Pueblo these folks came from is unrecorded. But, the images of the Pueblo men that are used as the entry for that particular event show a man wearing a kilt and a chongo hair-do, kinda indicating a western Pueblo group (Acoma, Laguna, Zuni maybe?) rather than the braids and buckskins that were more popular at Taos around that time (of course Taos war cheifs and their staff wear the chongos and kilts 24/7, but they wouldn't be cruizing to OK for like a month while in office), or the hispanicized dress/appearance of Isleta del Sur folks around that time.

Just a couple more ideas to throw out there....
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Old 09-19-2006, 01:28 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Str8Dancer49
... I've heard a couple other explanations. First, every time I've heard the Kiowa name for the snake dance - Tegua kunga (feel free to correct my spelling here) - it was translated as "Pueblo dance" w/o specific reference to any particular Pueblo. The Kiowa word Tegua (like in "check out that Tegua ki with the big Tegua bote and that short Tegua ma" hahaha!) sounds very much like "Tewa" rather than "Tiwa" (again, WhoMe, feel free to correct me here).
Wow. This is getting interesting! The Tigua (aka. Tegua, Tiguex, Tiwa, Tihua) Indians of Ysleta del Sur Pueblo of El Paso are descendants of refugees from the Río Abajo or lower Rio Grande pueblos who accompanied the Spanish to El Paso on their retreat from New Mexico during the Pueblo Revolt of 1680. The settlement established for them was named Ysleta del Sur, or Ysleta of the South, to distinguish it from their former home in Isleta, New Mexico, near what is now Albuquerque. Their original language was Tiwa. The New Mexican pueblos where the original language is spoken include Isleta, Sandia, Taos, and Picuris. Because of their significant loss of culture and aculturation with their Hispanic neighbors, it is difficult to determine when their version of the snake dance became extinct.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Str8Dancer49
... The choreography of the southern Plains snake dance closely resembles the Darawa'e (pronounced like Dah-dah-wai) dance of the Keres Pueblos (Acoma, Laguna, San Felipe, SD, Cochiti, Zia, Santa Ana) - in fact that dance is colloquially referred to as the "follow the leader dance." The arm movements are similar to what WhoMe mentioned...
Bill "Thuke" Koomsa Jr, mentioned that today's southern plains snake dance does resemble the Tigua pueblo dances where they line up and dance in unison.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Str8Dancer49
Another possibility is that on a couple of the Kiowa calendars (don't remember which ones) during the 1880s and 1890s, there are visits to the Kiowas by Pueblo people depicted as the entry for a given year or summer (check out Mooney's book on calendars for the specific year). . . (of course Taos war cheifs and their staff wear the chongos and kilts 24/7, ....
I have access to a Kiowa Calendar. I just went to look at it and did not see any entries in the 1880's or 90's with that you are referring to. Each Kiowa calendar deviates to some degree, because of the interpetation of different calendar keepers.

In the entries you are referring to, it may be very likely that the visitors were pueblo friends made during the infamous Taos rondezvous?
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Old 09-19-2006, 06:12 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Wow. This is getting interesting! The Tigua (aka. Tegua, Tiguex, Tiwa, Tihua) Indians of Ysleta del Sur Pueblo of El Paso are descendants of refugees from the Río Abajo or lower Rio Grande pueblos who accompanied the Spanish to El Paso on their retreat from New Mexico during the Pueblo Revolt of 1680. The settlement established for them was named Ysleta del Sur, or Ysleta of the South, to distinguish it from their former home in Isleta, New Mexico, near what is now Albuquerque. Their original language was Tiwa. The New Mexican pueblos where the original language is spoken include Isleta, Sandia, Taos, and Picuris. Because of their significant loss of culture and aculturation with their Hispanic neighbors, it is difficult to determine when their version of the snake dance became extinct.




Bill "Thuke" Koomsa Jr, mentioned that today's southern plains snake dance does resemble the Tigua pueblo dances where they line up and dance in unison.




I have access to a Kiowa Calendar. I just went to look at it and did not see any entries in the 1880's or 90's with that you are referring to. Each Kiowa calendar deviates to some degree, because of the interpetation of different calendar keepers.

In the entries you are referring to, it may be very likely that the visitors were pueblo friends made during the infamous Taos rondezvous?
.....soooo.....I guess that makes you part Mexican? aye!

JK

Str8dancer49.....where the hell have you been? Finished school yet? .....what part of the country did you settle into anyway?

PM me all the gory details.......and where you're dancin these days.



WHome.....I saw an OLD, OLD, OLD............ANCIENT VHS tape recording the other night of you all gussied up .....from about.........geez, I think 1983 or something at Chief Wildhorse Descendants Powwow.

...dang, I thought............GOSH...he ain't aged a bit!! aye china!

I'm working on transferring that VHS over to DVD in a few days or so .......gimme some time, I'll throw a copy your way.
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Old 09-19-2006, 06:33 PM   #25
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If you can,I'd like a copy of that dvd too.I'll $$for shipping.If you can,send me a pm and we'll talk then.
This was a very interesting thread.My Dad told me that many of those songs aren't sung anymore the way they were.I'd love to get any and all info on this,whether songs or vid,or written.Anyone out there who has this and is willing to share,I'd be most obliged to you....keep smilin'1
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Old 09-19-2006, 06:42 PM   #26
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buffalo and snake dance

I believe different tribes have different versions of each dance. the snake dance is also a Hopi dance, usually performed by those how belong to that clan. the buffalo dance, i thought would be a Comanche dance. it may not have originated in Comanche country, but for their bravery and great skill of hunting this beast, i would give them some credit.
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Old 09-22-2006, 01:54 PM   #27
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A little off subject... could perhaps be the topic of another thread... but could this "adoption" be one of the reason so many Taos round dance songs are being sung in OK?
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Old 09-22-2006, 03:48 PM   #28
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SmokeEater,

You're on topic. Dating way back, Taos Pueblo was a big trading center. Many tribes visited Taos; songs and dances were traded and given, as well as material goods.

Every year, a group of Taos men "laid out" their own newly made round dance songs and introduced them to the villagers. Later on, many of the songs got released into the powwow world, although sometimes the "curves were straightened out", when they were sung elsewhere.

This doesn't negate the fact that a super abundance of round dance songs were made in Oklahoma and elsewhere.
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Old 09-22-2006, 10:10 PM   #29
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i maybe way out in left field on this but im gonna put this question on the table, how is it that the fancy dancer is usually the dancer that is the head and the tail of the snake and buffalo dance when the fancy dance is believed to originate with the ponca?
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Old 09-22-2006, 11:33 PM   #30
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msix04,

Seems to me that in Oklahoma, in the world of powwow, the snake and buffalo dance grew into something intertribal and became secularized. I used to view it as a nice break between the other powwow dances. It was a fun dance and became a sort of show dance. If feather dancers were used for head and tail, that lent the dance a little pizzazz. Let us not forget that it is a powwow dance, that this is a powwow forum, and that beaucoup dancers are dancing fancy, no matter what tribe.
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Old 09-24-2006, 03:34 AM   #31
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Wow, that's a lot of information!

I wondered about that.

I had Snake and Buffalo danced in Bandera, TX on September 2nd & 3rd at Powwow.

Huronwoman and I went there.

I had no idea what I'm doing but my member Huronwoman told me I did Snake and Buffalo danced.

She told me I had a great dancer there.

I believe spirit got into me and made me move like snake and buffalo dancing!

Thank you yall about the Snake and Buffalo dancing information!
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Old 09-24-2006, 12:44 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Wow, that's a lot of information!

I wondered about that.

I had Snake and Buffalo danced in Bandera, TX on September 2nd & 3rd at Powwow.

Huronwoman and I went there.

I had no idea what I'm doing but my member Huronwoman told me I did Snake and Buffalo danced.

She told me I had a great dancer there.

I believe spirit got into me and made me move like snake and buffalo dancing!

Thank you yall about the Snake and Buffalo dancing information!
??????????? Wut??? D'ya mean to say that the proper songs mentioned were sung and you danced these properly?

Or............. didja just feel like a snake and then a buffalo and their spirits led you to move like them? Cool.

Did you move all squigly when you felt snake-like? What moves did you incorporate when the buffalo spirit got into you?

Please, do tell.

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Old 09-24-2006, 05:20 PM   #33
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I am Hearing Impaired but I can hear the drum without hearing aids well but not the voice.

I can't wearing hearing aids on the summer time because the sweat will damage it.

I heard NDN people told me the dummers song about Snake and Buffalo there, included other different songs.

I don't know how to explain this well, I can't reply this post again, sorry.

I just wanted thank to yall about Snake and Buffalo dances and sing information.
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Old 09-28-2006, 07:02 PM   #34
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Cool thread!


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