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Old 10-28-2006, 06:09 AM   #1
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chiricahua apache moccasins

does anyone know please how to make the
TRADITIONAL CHIRICAHUA APACHE BOOT MOCCASINS
THOSE WITH THE TOE GUARD.
could someone maybe give me directions for making a pattern for this type of moccasin
or maybe someone might know where i could get them made.

many thanks , PLEASE REPLY '

Last edited by apache scout; 10-28-2006 at 06:24 AM..
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:18 AM   #2
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The Perry family, who are White Mountain Apache, make traditional moccs. Sorry, I have no contact info; but, the museum out there might be able to hook you up. Or maybe the museum shop will have connections with an artist who can help you out.

http://wmat.us/wmaculture.shtml

The Craft Manual of North American Footwear has a pattern. But that one looks like a challenge. Based on my experience with that book, I wouldn't be too surprised if there were some things not included that leave a novice struggling. However, if you have some experience there might be enough info.
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Old 10-30-2006, 02:31 PM   #3
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Last edited by chirapachegurl; 10-30-2006 at 02:38 PM..
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Old 10-31-2006, 06:40 AM   #4
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good morning olchemist . thank you so very much for reply to my ad about the apache moccasins. thats brilliant ' and has really made my day. my hopes are looking up now. i will try to get in touch with the museum and see if they can contact the perry family for me or give me their contact info. as for the book on moccasin making i did get it , but as you said they arent as straight forward enough for a beginner. they arent like other plains style hightop moccasins.
well , thankyou so very much again for all your kind help and advice . i really do appreciate that very much thank you ' your brilliant ' . . . . i will let you know how i get on with that.
well take good care , and have a lovely ' day . best wishes . apache scout.
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Old 10-31-2006, 10:24 AM   #5
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*blush* You're welcome.

Good luck.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:51 PM   #6
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Yeah alot of people here on the san carlos rez make them. My friend just learned to make them. They said its pretty easy and i myself want to learn. So hopefully i can
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Old 06-12-2007, 12:12 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by oOoSouthernStyozoOo View Post
Yeah alot of people here on the san carlos rez make them. My friend just learned to make them. They said its pretty easy and i myself want to learn. So hopefully i can
hello southern style '
its lovely to hear from you again. please forgive me for not replying to you sooner. i am so pleased to hear from you ' and also that you might soon be learning to make the chiricahua style mocs . ' fantastic ' news . you will have to let me know how you get on with them southern style , and maybe you can give me directions on how to make them myself. i would really love to learn how to make them , and that would make me the happiest person in the world. honestly ' ' i think i told you i have made some of the plains style mocs & even beaded some and have started beading other things. at the moment im making cuffed wrist bands from scrap bits of elk and beading them using pics of native american antique items like mocs , bags & clothing. its going quite well ' but when all is said and done im still just a foreign beginner. i think i told you before i live here in england ' im english. and i really hope that you wont be offended or bothered by my being ' english ' i would still like us to be friends ' if thats ok ! with you. you will be my first apache friend. so fingers crossed everything will be ok with you on this. anyway ' who else can i learn to make apache mocs from. ha ' ha' ha '. could you ask your friend for me sthstyle how she makes out the pattern for the mocs. i tried once ' but couldnt work out the pattern for them. i used an old pair i got off ebay. i undid one to see the pattern, but it was a very un - planned looking pattern. it didnt really look like a pattern at all really. but very cleverly ' made.
well will close now southern style ' and really hope to hear from you very soon ! take really good care of yourself and have a great day.
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Old 06-12-2007, 03:46 PM   #8
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Wellllll......I'm interested to learn how to make these as well. My mother-in-law is San Carlos Apache. I made her an Apache dress last year for her graduation, with all the ruffles, rickrack, ribbon, and satin. She loved it.
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Old 06-14-2007, 11:45 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
Wellllll......I'm interested to learn how to make these as well. My mother-in-law is San Carlos Apache. I made her an Apache dress last year for her graduation, with all the ruffles, rickrack, ribbon, and satin. She loved it.
hello wyo rose '
how are you today ? . . it was really nice to hear from you. and good to know that someone else is also interested in making the chiricahua moccasins. are you apache yourself ?
it seems to me that alot of apache people there actually want to learn how to make the old style moccasins. and thats a really good thing , its important to keep the old crafts alive and well. im trying to find someone who can give me directions on how to make them. better still make a video ' ha ' ha ' ha ' then we could all see it being done in person so to speak. wouldnt it be brill though.
well must go , take care for now hope to hear from you soon .
take care.
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Old 06-14-2007, 03:39 PM   #10
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No, I'm Shoshone. But my boyfriend is Apache.

Do you have some pics of traditional Apache mocs that you could share?
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:37 PM   #11
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Mr. Perry, I forgot his first name even though I met him once. I want to say it starts with a "D" but I could be off the wall there. Anyhow, he teachs an Apache moccasin making class over at the cultural center in San Carlos. Or at least he was, when I was living in Phoenix a few years ago.

My examination of Apache mocs in museums is that they are often sewn with the upper and sole right side out instead of inside out and then turned like for most Plains mocs.

I also have the book that Ol'Chemist mentions. One thing they don't show you is that for the tall mocs, the upper part can sometimes actually go up to the thighs if you stretch the whole thing out. Its not worn this way however, since that length is folded down roughly two or three times so that the boots end up being calf length.
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Old 06-16-2007, 10:41 AM   #12
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Hi. Count me in! I want to learn how to make the apache moccasins (the tall ones), too. I know how to make the plains mocs and southern boots/leggings. I also have the book that Czechy and OL Chemist have. I think you have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Or maybe it's just me:)
Anyway, This is the little information that I do know. They are one piece and they would have to be sewn from the outside, especially with the toe guard. They have a fold on the top and I have even seen several with leather fringe on the back seam.
I was visiting my nephew in Show Low, Arizona last summer and was supposed to meet with a gentleman who knew how to make them. He was called out of town and I had to come back home:(
I hope someone can help. Thanks:)

Betty
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Old 06-18-2007, 07:35 AM   #13
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apache moccasins

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Mr. Perry, I forgot his first name even though I met him once. I want to say it starts with a "D" but I could be off the wall there. Anyhow, he teachs an Apache moccasin making class over at the cultural center in San Carlos. Or at least he was, when I was living in Phoenix a few years ago.

My examination of Apache mocs in museums is that they are often sewn with the upper and sole right side out instead of inside out and then turned like for most Plains mocs.

I also have the book that Ol'Chemist mentions. One thing they don't show you is that for the tall mocs, the upper part can sometimes actually go up to the thighs if you stretch the whole thing out. Its not worn this way however, since that length is folded down roughly two or three times so that the boots end up being calf length.
good morning czechy.
my sincerest apologies for the late reply to your kind message.
i did actually get a pair of old 2nd hand apache mocs off ebay. and unpicked the stitching to see what the layout for the pattern would be. but its difficult to understand because the upper is all one length , and i need to know how much you add on the pattern where it comes just above the arch of the foot as you need to allow for this. then you have placement of the loops for the lace ties which come round on the arch. also the one i undid had an added / stitched on corner piece. so im no better off really. i just think its something you really need to be shown / and directed on how and what to do. i do know how the sole is sewn to the upper. just on the inside edge of the floor of the moc , theycut grooves into the edge of the sole and this acts like the ' stretch stitch ' o the ' fringed boot pattern ' for sale at craft stores. it makes it less likely for you to get the pulling
in the hide when sewing it together . i have quite a few pics of apache moccasins , but im useless with computers so dont know how to send them to you . but you could send me your postal address as either an ' email to me ' or ' a private message ' but if you want you could see one apache pair on this website . MEDICINEMANGALLERY.COM beadwork , apache . i have some really good ones i can copy for you but will need your postal address. also in the old days they were worn thigh hi if the weather got cold , or to protect the legs from desert thorns. but mostly nowadays they are worn folded down calf hi 2 - 3 times. thankyou again for replying and good luck. maybe someone will one day come on and tell us all how easy it is to make em . have a great day. by the way congratulations on your beadwork. beautifull stuff . excellent work . also i forgot to say on the sewing of the sole , the grooves are like a castle wall , up & down but not cut too deep in to the leather. then the needle and thread is pushed through the raised part of the grooves. so there you go , thats one part worked out.

Last edited by apache scout; 06-18-2007 at 07:46 AM.. Reason: left out detail for stitching sole of moccasin to upper
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Old 06-18-2007, 07:59 AM   #14
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apache moccasins

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No, I'm Shoshone. But my boyfriend is Apache.

Do you have some pics of traditional Apache mocs that you could share?
hello wyo '
very sorry for the delay in replying to you. i use a library computer so cant always find the time to reply to people who are kind enough to take the time to write me.
but yes ! ' ' i have quite a few pics of the apache style mocs.
if you like i can send you some if you want them. but im useles with computers so i would have to post them to you . you could send me a ' private message ' or ' email ' to let me have your postal address so i can send them to you. i have some good ones , which i get on ebay or from the antiques websites. heres some for you to lok at. MEDICINEMANGALLERY.COM then on the site its under beadwork , then apache. you could also look at LIVEAUCTIONEERS.COM they have loads of different tribal beadwork moccasins , stuff. i think they have 1 or 2 apache moccasins. you can search on there anyway. lot 353 apache high top moccasins . also , lot 565 apache mans high top moccasins. hope this helps you ' but i dont mind sending you the pics i have they are very good.
thanks again for your message , feel free to contact me anytime. take good care.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:15 AM   #15
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Hi. Count me in! I want to learn how to make the apache moccasins (the tall ones), too. I know how to make the plains mocs and southern boots/leggings. I also have the book that Czechy and OL Chemist have. I think you have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Or maybe it's just me:)
Anyway, This is the little information that I do know. They are one piece and they would have to be sewn from the outside, especially with the toe guard. They have a fold on the top and I have even seen several with leather fringe on the back seam.
I was visiting my nephew in Show Low, Arizona last summer and was supposed to meet with a gentleman who knew how to make them. He was called out of town and I had to come back home:(
I hope someone can help. Thanks:)

Betty
good morning lipan lady .
its really good to hear from you . its also good to hear from an apache lady. yeah ' i figured that one out about the toe guard stitching. but i was told before that they soak the sole to make the stitching easier for sewing the upper and sole together. and i presume the toe guard is then weighted downto get it to stay in position across the tops of the toes.
the pair i bought off ebay which i took apart one' i still couldnt work out how to draw out a pattern for to make my own mocs. i just dont understand how much to allow for the part above the arch where it comes up your leg. then theres the ankle ties positioning them in the correct place. but the soles had grooves carved into the inside edge of the sole. kind of like a castle wall ' up n ' down but not cut too deeply.
then the needle and thread is passed through the raised part of the grooves. this acts like a ' stretch stitch ' like on the ' fringed boot pattern ' you can buy. it prevents the stitching from stretching and gathering too much in places.
you said you make the plains mocs and southern boots / leggings. do you make the ' apache point toe style ' like the chiricahua ' but with a point toe ' instead of the circular chiricahua style guard. would you know lipan lady ' which apache tribe wore the ' point toe style mocs ' ? . . . i would really like to know this , who wore them. take good care
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:19 AM   #16
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his name is edgar perry ' i think .
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:24 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Czechy View Post
Mr. Perry, I forgot his first name even though I met him once. I want to say it starts with a "D" but I could be off the wall there. Anyhow, he teachs an Apache moccasin making class over at the cultural center in San Carlos. Or at least he was, when I was living in Phoenix a few years ago.

My examination of Apache mocs in museums is that they are often sewn with the upper and sole right side out instead of inside out and then turned like for most Plains mocs.

I also have the book that Ol'Chemist mentions. One thing they don't show you is that for the tall mocs, the upper part can sometimes actually go up to the thighs if you stretch the whole thing out. Its not worn this way however, since that length is folded down roughly two or three times so that the boots end up being calf length.
mr perry' s name is edgar perry ' i think. hope i got it right.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:33 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
Wellllll......I'm interested to learn how to make these as well. My mother-in-law is San Carlos Apache. I made her an Apache dress last year for her graduation, with all the ruffles, rickrack, ribbon, and satin. She loved it.
hello wyo '

how are you today . weather has been up n ' down here. very heavy rain for about 3 days , with flooding in parts of the country. i just wanted to say i forgot to mention that you did very well on the apache camp dress you made. it must have taken you ages , did you sew by hand or machine.
either way i can imagine would be difficult , with the weight of all that material . god ! ' ' ' that would have driven me scranny ' ' ' but well done. have you tried the apache jingle dresses. they are really nice also. with the beaded lanes and tin cones. they are well smart too . is your boyfriend chiricahua ? . . . does he know which tribe of apache wore the point toe style moccasins . thanks again wyo . and all the very best.
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:13 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by apache scout View Post
his name is edgar perry ' i think .
Yeah, that's it! I can see if I can get his contact info. I don't know if he does custom orders but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Thanks apache scout for describing the groove technique for attaching the upper to the sole. I never would have guessed that, but it does make sense due to the thick soles that are often used.

If you can email your pics to me or one of the Crafts moderators, we can post them for you. Or... I have a a couple of my own that I can post.
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Old 06-23-2007, 05:08 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czechy View Post
Yeah, that's it! I can see if I can get his contact info. I don't know if he does custom orders but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Thanks apache scout for describing the groove technique for attaching the upper to the sole. I never would have guessed that, but it does make sense due to the thick soles that are often used.

If you can email your pics to me or one of the Crafts moderators, we can post them for you. Or... I have a a couple of my own that I can post.
good morning czechy ' how are you today ? keeping well i hope. czechy there are some chiricahua mocs on ebay.com at the moment. just go on there and search apache moccasins. theya re only about $44.00 at the moment. but may go up in price. they are also 2nd hand not new. so if you wanted you could buy them ' or you could if you wanted do what i did and unpick one to see how they are made.
i tried to send you a private message yesterday ' but dont know if you received it. i found a navajo pattern in a library book here. it just gives directions on how to make the navajo mocs , but i think the navajo & apache are closely connected and i think also the way the mocs are sewn at the sole is very similar to the way the apache is done. also the navajo pattern in the book looks very similar to the apache moc i got off ebay , the one i unpicked and layed out flat on the floor. the shape of the whole thing looks more or less similar to the navajo directions and drawing in my book. i think if you study both the apache and navajo patterns maybe combined together they might give up the secret of how to make the apache moccasins. . . also ' have a look at these websites for antique moccasins & beadwork.
LIVEAUCTIONEERS.COM
MEDICINEMANGALLERY.COM
these are some of the pics i have but dont know how to do attachments yet to send them to you. i am very sorry czechy
take good care and i hope this info helps you
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