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Old 07-09-2003, 08:49 AM   #1
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Roach questions, tips, and techniques

Here we go I got a few questions about roaches mostly on history so. But I'd like everyone to post any tips or techniques that you use or has been forgotten. Me and my dad have made roaches before so the beginer stuff I don't realy need, it's tricks that the pros use that could be useful.

Here goes my questions.

If I use a deer hair base do you sew to it just like a yarn or rope base?

What color deer hair was used way back when? In most of the Ledger pictures and old art work the roaches are red, but what other colors did they use?

I already started the thread on the skunk hair, is there any other hair or something that may be overlooked or seem strange?

Ok, thats my questions for now but please post any tips or things that me or other people might not know about roaches. And if anyone else has questions just post 'um here on this thread and we'll kill them all off.
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Old 07-09-2003, 09:15 AM   #2
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Turkey beards can also be used.
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Old 07-09-2003, 11:46 AM   #3
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I've seen pictures of people from northern Montana a long time ago that some of them wore roaches with moose beard hair.
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Old 07-09-2003, 11:59 AM   #4
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for what ot's worth

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All the old time roaches I have seen in museums and other collections the deer hair was red. I have even heard the word 'roach' translates (not sure which tribal language) to red headdress or something like. This being said it's my opinion if trying to recreate an olde time deer hair base roach red is a safe bet. In everything doing your own through research is the best way and I assume your post is the begining of such. Good luck
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Old 07-09-2003, 10:32 PM   #5
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Well my little brother is about 7 and starting to get serious with his dancing so we will be handing down all the roaches that my other bothers have and one of them will be getting my current one when I make this one. I'm looking to go bigger than my 15" and was just looking around for ideas. I've been doing some research and looking at old photos and musuem pieces. I thought an old style one would be nice. Personaly I don't like a lot of flashy colors and designs. Don't get me wrong they look awsome but I like the single color roches better. I read on one of the threads that the hair was died with what ever was avaliable. So thats why the colors were limited and now we got all these colors so anything goes.

How many old ones were done in white or yellow?

Where can I get a deer hair base? Will I need to make it myself? I asked the guys at matoska but they replied with what bases were avaliable. And didn't tell me where they got them or if they made them themselves.

Thanks everyone for posting.

Last edited by Tx_grass_dancer; 07-09-2003 at 10:44 PM..
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Old 07-10-2003, 08:08 AM   #6
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Try Pming Powwowbum49. Bum damn nice makes roaches. I'm sure he might be able to help you out. He also seems to know a least little about everything.
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Old 07-10-2003, 03:07 PM   #7
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I don't know how to make the deer tail bases. It seems to me you need to make a 'rope' or a braid of the deertail hair and sew that together like a modern one is done.
But, you can use white deertail hair without any problem. That's what I stuck with, simply because I didnt' want a colorful roach. I mean, a White tail deer is called that for a reason. And no dye needed. :)
Most of the old roaches I've seen in museums and such were made with yarn bases. Or the roach was so heavily beaded or quilled you couldn't see what the base was made of. The yarn bases I saw were almost exclusively red, though. either that or a motley grey blend of colors, kind of like those old 'rag' carpets. (I don't know if I am describing that very well.)
But I have definitely heard of turkey beard, and moose. I even read something recently, where a drawing was done(an old drawing from the 1800s) where the roach had feathers put around the crown of the roach too. The feathers were supported by sticks to make sure they continued to stand up straight. Not that I have seen anything like that at a powwow - ever. Bt it's a neat idea.
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Old 07-10-2003, 03:31 PM   #8
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Thumbs up deer hair bases

Deer hair bases rule! Basically, all the ones I've seen are basically tied like the outer row of deer hair.... the hair folded over the cord and tied, etc. BUT the trick - and the time consuming part - is that you use a REALLY long cord, and after you get all of the deer hair tied on it, that cord , sewed to itself, makes a kinda concentric spiral outward from the hole.... turing into a teardrop shape.... does that make any sense? Once the base is done, the turkey beard or porky row is atteched, then the final outer row of deer hair, just like a regular roach.

Anyway, 99% of the deer hair base roaches i've seen have the hair base clipped short, so that the hair is only like 1/4 inch tall, except for the outer row of hair (next to the turky beard/porky hair) so it looks just like an inner row of deer hair. However, the BADDEST turkey beard roach I ever saw had an unclipped deer hair base - had this kinda plume of red hair standing up.... didn't even need a speader to hold the feather upright when it was attached to the scalplock, and the hair let it sway and move really nice...

Also, I think ALL of the turkey beard roaches i've seen had red deer hair. I've also seen sll kinds of colors and patterns worked into clipped hair bases on porky roahes.
I guess once you see one, this post won't seem so confusing, but that's about the best i could explain it. If you have seen one and didn't know it, this might help!

Last edited by Str8Dancer49; 07-10-2003 at 03:33 PM..
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Old 07-10-2003, 03:58 PM   #9
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Do I make it just like you would make a rope base except with tied deer hair?

It's kinda a toss up right now as to which base I will be using. I may just order a 20" rope base. But I'm gonna put in a row of skunk hair on the inside. 2 or 3 crowns & one row of porky all the way around. And haven't decided what color hair deer hair. Was thinking red, white or yellow.
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Old 07-10-2003, 09:03 PM   #10
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Hey, I found a couple of web pages that have pics of deer hair roach bases.....

Scroll down on this page and there are some pics of tops and undersides of roaches. One has an unclipped base, but the underside pics really help explain what i was trying to get across pretty well I think....

http://www.matoska.com/roach_history.htm

On this next page, you can see the top side of a clipped hair base w/ multiple color design like I was trying to describe earlier....

http://www.sherwoodsspirit.com/a6227.html

Hope that kinda helps to clarify.... and if you do the deer hair base - good luck and lots of patience!
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Old 07-12-2003, 09:51 PM   #11
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Thanks for those links Str8Dancer49. That second link was awesome. By the way did anyone see that $3,200 price tag and the fact that it was sold?????? OUCH!!!!!!
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Old 07-13-2003, 02:54 AM   #12
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$$$$!!!

Dang, I didn't see the price on that before! Sheesh, too bad I missed out on that $250 million powerball - didn't even get one number.... must be nice to be able to drop over 3 grand on a roach! Whoever bought it was prolly some collector and the poor roach will never get worn!

Years ago, I had a chance to buy a bad-a$$ turkey beard roach w/ unclipped hair base for $250 (lately I've seen 'em for around $800!) but didn't get it cause I was like 16 and really broke.... :wall:
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Old 07-13-2003, 02:25 PM   #13
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OK what exactly are roaches...i might know what they are but jus not know the name.....
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Old 07-13-2003, 09:44 PM   #14
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Click on the first link, str8 posted Martha. A pic is worth a 1000 words you know;)
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Old 07-13-2003, 09:46 PM   #15
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$250 for a turkey beard roach :wall: :wall: :wall:


I paid $300 for my deer and porky roach, and I got a good deal!!!!
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Old 07-13-2003, 10:21 PM   #16
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Thanks spottedeagle :p
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Old 07-14-2003, 05:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by spottedeagle
$250 for a turkey beard roach :wall: :wall: :wall:


I paid $300 for my deer and porky roach, and I got a good deal!!!!
I've made a few roaches, and even sold a couple. But, I've seen some serious over-pricing lately. I've seen some nice roaches, but they were priced beyond anyone's means. Like the make didn't want to sell it or something.
I try to keep the price reasonable, but fair for me too. But, even if the roach was from 1901(and over 100 years old), I don't think I could ever bring myself to pay $3200 for it... :)
Heck I bought an antique dresser and vanity this weekend that only cost me $200 for both. LOL!

Scott
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Old 07-24-2003, 10:05 PM   #18
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Well we covered almost everything else concerning roaches, except::

What's the best way to care for a roach???

How do you clean a roach??
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Old 07-25-2003, 12:38 AM   #19
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roach care tips

Hey.... I've got a few tricks for roach care. My roach is over 12 years old and still looks pretty sharp - the front hair is not that long, but since i take goot care of it, it looks longer than it is cause it sways sooooo goot!

First thing is make sure you have a good stick/baseball bat type thing to store your roach on. I use a big cylinder of newspaper tightly rolled around a 1 inch dowel rod, then wrapped w/ duck tape (one more use for the stuff!). The newspaper roll is the same diameter as the fat part of the base of the roach. A little dowel (3/8" I think) is stuck in the big dowel and goes through the hole in the base to keep the roach from sliding around. I use an old, stretched out ACE bandage to wrap the roach onto the "stick" thingy.... the reason I made it the same diameter as the fat part of the base is so I don't get any funky bend or curl in the hair - it just lays flat and straight on the stick when wrapped.

Every now and then, I'll use a wet comb and comb the hair straight as I wrap it up on the stick..... About twice a year, I dunk my whole roach in the bathtub, comb out any tangles, use a LITTLE soap on the base to get out hairspray, dirt, hair oils, etc. I've never personally tried to wash the hair itself w/ any kind of soap, but I may try Johnson's baby shampoo cause it's so gentle. Just recently, while the roach was under water, I used a LITTLE bit of Mane n' Tail conditioner and worked it into the hair w/ my fingers. (Seriously, it didn't take much conditioner at all - didn't wanna get any waxy build up on the hair, just enough to kinda restore some moisture & keep it tangle free.) After that, I wrapped the thing back up, combing the hair straight as I wrapped it up. You can kinda customize the way the hair lays by wrapping it like this - the tail end can drape gently, lay almost flat, stand straight out, etc.... you gotta find what you like and play with it a bit. After wrapping/combing, I set the wrapped stick out on my back porch for a couple of days - here in Albuquerque, we just had like 8 straight days of 100+ temps, so this dried out the water really nicely. I've heard of folks wrapping roaches like this then drying them in the oven, but I'm just not that brave.... though if you live where it's reall humid, the oven might be a good idea so your roach don't get all moldy.... just don't blame me if you frikasee your gear! This whole wrapping process is why my newspaper cylinder is covered w/ a layer of duct tape - the stuff is waterproof, so the paper doesn't get soaked - if you've got a real roach stick, that won't be a problem.

One warning - the first couple of times that you do this, some of the dye on the deer hair will come off. The first time I totally dunked my roach, the water was kinda pink from the red dye, and the ACE bandage has some interesting red spots now. Also, I wouldn't use hot water - cold water should prevent too much bleeding.

Last weekend I was in Okla, and usually the humidity over there gives my roach the fuzzies - the tips of the porky hair get a little curled, all going different directions... just looks bad. But this past time, after the Mane n' Tail treatment, I had no fuzzies at all.... the hair stayed nice and straight all weekend... and again if you try a little conditioner (of whatever kind - I'm not pluggin mane n' tail!), a little seems to go along way - my hair still moved really well cause I didn't let the conditioner build up and make the hair waxy or heavy......

aight.... anybody got other tips I haven't tried? Anyone think my tips are completely nuts? Anyone with a lathe wanna make me a stick to my specs so I can chunk my rezzed out duck tape and newspaper contraption? It works, but dang...... just looks rugged!
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Old 07-25-2003, 01:11 AM   #20
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I used to have a rolled up newspaper for my roach too. It worked pretty well. I have one from crazy crow that's about the size of my current roach so it works well on it. I know right after my dad ties a roach he uses V0-5 on the hair. I don't know if it straightens it, gets out the tangles or what. He does that to my roach about twice a year.

I heard that you can adjust how the hair lays when you put it on the stick. Is this true and does it mess up your hair at all?
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