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Old 05-17-2009, 08:36 PM   #81
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Old 05-17-2009, 08:38 PM   #82
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Old 05-18-2009, 10:08 AM   #83
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I'm shocked to see people talk about intolerance of natives in the US, then turn around and bash someone from Europe in another thread.
Please, remember there are lots of people on these forums. The powwows.com does NOT speak with one voice.

FireAndFlint, please try to understand the root of some of the anger here. In my experience tolerance -- as defined by non-Native people with a request -- means "give me the answer/information I want." When my personal sensibilities or concerns about cultural integrity prohibit answering, I get called intolerant. Usually as a kicker, the requester then declares me inauthentically Native, by saying my ancestors -- the "real Indians" -- would have given them what they want. Tolerance means realizing their need trumps my people's need. It's the tolerance of vultures.

Surely with the history you have just described you can understand the soul wound our communities and families are healing. Please give us a little tolerance.
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:13 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Please, remember there are lots of people on these forums. The powwows.com does NOT speak with one voice.

FireAndFlint, please try to understand the root of some of the anger here. In my experience tolerance -- as defined by non-Native people with a request -- means "give me the answer/information I want." When my personal sensibilities or concerns about cultural integrity prohibit answering, I get called intolerant. Usually as a kicker, the requester then declares me inauthentically Native, by saying my ancestors -- the "real Indians" -- would have given them what they want. Tolerance means realizing their need trumps my people's need. It's the tolerance of vultures.

Surely with the history you have just described you can understand the soul wound our communities and families are healing. Please give us a little tolerance.
Perhaps I was misunderstood, I've made some wordy posts so I can easily see why, when I mentioned tolerance I wasn't talking about her request for information, I was pointing out some of the following posts directed at the poster after she had accepted their answers.

I fully realise the whole thing of being called intolerant because you chose not to share something, I'm on your side of this matter! I have been fortunate enough to have teachers who have taught me what is appropriate to ask about, and the way to seek things from elders, and that sometimes, you just aren't suppose to know certain things. Not everything is entitled to everyone.
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:47 PM   #85
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:58 PM   #86
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Old 05-18-2009, 02:02 PM   #87
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I agree!

Most non-Indians feel they are entitled to everything. With regard to spiritual/cultural aspects, if you are supposed to know it will eventually come to you and you won't have to go out of your way to know! Alot of Elders will not pass on that knowledge until they feel you are ready and can handle that responsibility.

If one is non-indian then embrace that. Don't try to be something your not!
I've heard some stories that make me believe firmly that when certain things are supposed to happen, they will. Nothing is coincidence or random, all things happen within a pattern.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:39 AM   #88
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Great post!!!
FireAndFlint Google Historical Trauma and unresolved grief and maybe you will understand our reluctance to share.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:11 AM   #89
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Great post!!!
FireAndFlint Google Historical Trauma and unresolved grief and maybe you will understand our reluctance to share.
i am familiar with both concepts and I know how it travels through the generations. It is something that needs to be resolved and worked through however, in the same way that a person who is the victim of trauma in their life should seek out help and work through it. In individuals with a history of trauma it is always self destructive to allow those things to go untreated.
But that is a whole other topic.
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:32 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by FireAndFlint View Post
i am familiar with both concepts and I know how it travels through the generations. It is something that needs to be resolved and worked through however, in the same way that a person who is the victim of trauma in their life should seek out help and work through it. In individuals with a history of trauma it is always self destructive to allow those things to go untreated.
But that is a whole other topic.
This is and isn't a whole other subject. Yes, we must heal from these traumas but we must never forget what has been done in the attempt to prevent the passing of these sacred ways and knowledge. To forget would dishonor all those who struggled saving these sacred things. Sharing has it's time and place and "No" can and should be said respectfully.
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Old 05-19-2009, 06:17 PM   #91
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This is and isn't a whole other subject. Yes, we must heal from these traumas but we must never forget what has been done in the attempt to prevent the passing of these sacred ways and knowledge. To forget would dishonor all those who struggled saving these sacred things. Sharing has it's time and place and "No" can and should be said respectfully.
Right, I was merely stating that steps should also be taken within the native communities, as I am sure they are, and have seen first hand also, to move forward and continue to contribute both to their communities and as a member of the global community. Healing also implies reaching a healthy state in which they are better for it.

For example, in 1916 my countrymen were butchered on the beaches of Galliopli Bay. To give you a sense of the magnitude of that single battle, my mother tells me stories of how not a single family she knew was without a relative who was lost, and in some cases more than one relative had been killed there. Every Australian remembers and honours and feels the pain of that betrayal, and the sting of that war. But we have also reconciled with our former enemies, and now the same people who caused that massacre, and those we fought against, are our strongest and closest allies. And we have not lost anything that it means to be Australian through that process.

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Old 05-20-2009, 02:46 PM   #92
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Right, I was merely stating that steps should also be taken within the native communities, as I am sure they are, and have seen first hand also, to move forward and continue to contribute both to their communities and as a member of the global community. Healing also implies reaching a healthy state in which they are better for it.

For example, in 1916 my countrymen were butchered on the beaches of Galliopli Bay. To give you a sense of the magnitude of that single battle, my mother tells me stories of how not a single family she knew was without a relative who was lost, and in some cases more than one relative had been killed there. Every Australian remembers and honours and feels the pain of that betrayal, and the sting of that war. But we have also reconciled with our former enemies, and now the same people who caused that massacre, and those we fought against, are our strongest and closest allies. And we have not lost anything that it means to be Australian through that process.
There are at least two major differences between these two examples:
First we are dealing with over 500 nations and their individual wounds that need healing. Second injuries are still occurring throughout Indian Country. Child and sexual abuse, suicide and alcoholism are the results of historical trauma but environmental racism, desecration of sacred sites, and poor at best healthcare (physical and mental) are among the ongoing injustices.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:53 PM   #93
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Right, I was merely stating that steps should also be taken within the native communities, as I am sure they are, and have seen first hand also, to move forward and continue to contribute both to their communities and as a member of the global community. Healing also implies reaching a healthy state in which they are better for it.

For example, in 1916 my countrymen were butchered on the beaches of Galliopli Bay. To give you a sense of the magnitude of that single battle, my mother tells me stories of how not a single family she knew was without a relative who was lost, and in some cases more than one relative had been killed there. Every Australian remembers and honours and feels the pain of that betrayal, and the sting of that war. But we have also reconciled with our former enemies, and now the same people who caused that massacre, and those we fought against, are our strongest and closest allies. And we have not lost anything that it means to be Australian through that process.
I agree with Wangi, not the same. 500 yrs cannot be compared to a single battke or even a single war. The magnitude of that many generations cannot be understood by those who do not live it. Also I find it rather persumptious (to put it nicely) of you to tell us what we need to be doing next and how we should be doing it.
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Old 05-20-2009, 10:13 PM   #94
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where and which culture? Just because she is in Spain, doesn't mean shes Spanish. And I assure you, tribal elders that still follow the traditional ways from before Roman's took over what is now Spain, followed by the Moors after that (Spain was Islamic for a significant amount of time before the Christians retook it). On top of that, Spain has a history of being fiercly Christian (Spanish Inquisition, if you're not familiar with that, think of how the Spanish treated the Aztecs, then replace the Aztecs with Spanish Citizens as well as other European minorities and non-Christians.

Natives are lucky in the regard that their cultures are largely intact compared to traditional tribal cultures or European countries. You have had to deal with an outside influence that we had to deal with your thousands of years and ultimately completely succumbed to. Also realize that traditional cultures in Europe are intensely looked down up and are heavily subjugated. We have plants, animals, art, and skills that we used to use, but the culture that supported them are non-existent. We have no elders, we have no teachers, and our sacred sites are silent, because nobody knows any of their true meanings. Out songs and stories are gone. All we have is random references to what was once important.
And on to this post...I never assumed what european ethicity she was. I know the history, I took 3 university prep classes in history before changing my mind and prepapring to take geology. Since it was less the 2000, but more then 1000, "over a thousand years" would be a more accurate statement, although not accurate for the whole of Europe. Our cultures are "largely intact?" Many of the Nations don't even exsist anymore. For those of us still here, and those of us from a Nation whose culture is intact, it is because we protected our culture, and continue to do so. Some parts of our culture no longer have the social constructs in place to do things how they were. We just work with what we got in a fight to still be NDN generations from now. Again if ya look hard enough you can find. I have met people with old celtic songs. People with old stories, Roma's with ancient beliefs, beliefs they kept alive despite leaving their homelands long long before Romans etc. came to Europe. You think cause some left minded types and new agers think we are cool that it is widely accepted to be NDN? We suffer racism still, are called backwards for not conforming. So although I know how there is little left of ancient European cultures I do not buy that it is gone. I think those with it protect it from the same loons we protect ours from, but what is left is just hidden, and often in plain site, take dance for example. You got those who just dance, and then you got those who know where those dances came from, the old meanings etc. How the dress has changed, which songs are older...just got to look hard...or smart.

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Old 05-21-2009, 06:59 AM   #95
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Largely intact???? Good grief what planet do you live on??? Much of our culture has been decimated by the galloping hordes that descended on us from the time that the boat pulled up and unloaded the first "settlers" in the new world. Not to mention the fact that entire tribes have been wiped off the face of the earth.

This just goes to show that people really do believe what the media and the white government put out there for their fodder....
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:45 AM   #96
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I wonder what would have happened if the invasion would have been the other way around, north americans invading europe!!!! That would have made real history not the fairy tale books we now have! The truth was not only burried but glorified versions were given out to make things look soooooo much better for their minds to ease the lies.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:53 PM   #97
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Largely intact???? Good grief what planet do you live on??? Much of our culture has been decimated by the galloping hordes that descended on us from the time that the boat pulled up and unloaded the first "settlers" in the new world. Not to mention the fact that entire tribes have been wiped off the face of the earth.

This just goes to show that people really do believe what the media and the white government put out there for their fodder....
allow me to clarify.
largely intact having the meaning of: meaning of sacred sites, language, oral traditions, some form of traditional material culture, elders, etc.

European tribes have none of these.

And I am aware of tribes being completely wiped out, save for the Piscataway, the region I live in lost almost all of its tribes. The tribe that lived along the river I live on now, was wiped out not by Europeans, but by the Iroquois, after being heavily raided by the Susquahanocs. They're known as the Patapsico, and they were wiped out so early that they didn't even begin using Glass for points, as many other tribes in the area did later.They lasted maybe a few years after European contact before the Iroquois came down from the north and obliterated them.
They are actually a pretty impressive tribe, they had 6 major fortified towns.

As for my example, no you're right, they're not the same. I was making a point, perhaps it wasn't the best so I retract it.

Also, you mentioned meeting people with Celtic songs? Do you know what Celtic means? Celtic covers all pre-roman cultures from Spain to Ireland. Its a blanket term that has the same weight and meaning as "native american". Many many cultures falls under the term "celtic".
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