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Old 09-19-2003, 06:12 PM   #1
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eastern outfits

hey to all my fellow eastern tradtional dancers

what makes up a full dance outfit for north eastrern tradional


any 1 wanna take a crack at it
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Old 09-23-2003, 03:03 PM   #2
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Time Period?

Good question.

But to answer one needs to know what time period you are thinking about and of course what Eastern Tribe you are speaking of.

For example: Are you intersted in the time peroid of Early Contact, French & Indian, Colonial America, Revolutionary War, Turn of the 19th Century or War of 1812?

Or are you interested in the time before the mass moving of all Eastern People to the west (yes this included North East and South East People)? This would be pre-1830.

Or are you intersted in the Early-Reservation period? Which can be difficult as revervations in some parts of the east were established long before the concept was in the west.

Or are you interested in the Post-Reservation period? This is after the East was pretty much well populated and any Natives left were either own their own or on a Eastern Reservation.

Or are you interested in the turn of the 20th Century? Or the Post-Modern Powwow peroid starting in the 20th Century?

This is important because of materials for each time is different. Types of materials like leather, cloth, wool, silk, beads, etc. were different from each time peroid. There is also a difference in Porcupine Quillwork, Beadwork, stitching, and such from time to time.

Something as simple as the color and length of a roach, or the print and length of your shirt & breach-cloth, or even the sizes of beads and stitch of beadwork could be important or not.

It all depends on what you want to do and our authentic you would like to be and what Tribe you belong to or what Tribe you are representing.
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Old 09-23-2003, 03:19 PM   #3
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i would say french and indian war.. i was just tryin to figured out things that i need to still get for my outfit

this is a list of what i have

gehuswtwhie (featherd hat)
long green floral print shirt
cloth aprons
assumpumstion sash/garters
bandoleer bag/patch knife on it
deer foot dance stick
turky feather fan(wing)
war club
i have a vest even tho eatern wouldnt really wear them(i do when its cold out)
i need to find a good pair of center seem half leggings
and a pair of moccs w/o beading

things im lookin for are

eastern center seem moccs
eastern center seem half leggings
gorget/arm bands(metel items brass)
more assumption weaving
and eastern style bustel(smaller then northern plains/no extensions and made out of turkey wing spikes)
deer toe/hawk dance bells (i plan on having 2 beer toes to each hawk bell)
long shirt ( bigg enuff for a big guy xxl)

any more suggestions..

any 1 is welcome to right

and thanx for ur help
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Old 09-23-2003, 05:00 PM   #4
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Just a note of interest on the gustoweah or feathered hat. That was distinctly Iroquois. The Algonquin peoples of the Northeast Woodlands did not wear them. Do a little research on that before you buy or make one, as I'm not sure if there is a protocol for those who can and cannot wear them.
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Old 09-23-2003, 09:21 PM   #5
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yeah i wear 1 but i just do not have any uprights

and i forgot to put that in my post yes im goin for a iroquois outfit
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Old 09-23-2003, 09:41 PM   #6
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Some Information

Post182,

You have a good start and a good general idea.

As far as the Gustoweah, Speedy is basically right - but like most of our culture things had been adopted, borrowed and even traded by many tribes. So you could see (key word could) a Gustoweah among other North East Tribes in the 18th and certainly the 19th Cenurty.

A perfect example of adaptdation is the Hair Roach. It is indigenous to the Eastern Tribes not the Plains and the West. The Roach was originally an Eastern "warriors" head gear - one had to earn the right to have one. And a true Roach was made of Turkey Beard Hair (no Deer Hair) with a Hair Base not Porcupine Hair/Deer Hair and a woven base! In fact it was not seen among the Western Tribes until the 19th Century.

To be as authentic and traditional as possible do more research and ask about the Gustoweah to your Elders. If you go with a Roach keep it small. Go with either a Tear Drop shape of 6-inches or less or a Round Roach. Stay with colors of natural, white, or red.

Now for the F&I period you need to concentrate on the time of Circa 1750 or so. For this you need to adjust a few things:

1. Get a solid cotton muslin shirt - preferably cream color. If you do use prints make sure that the print is very small. Stay away from any large print and any modern print.
2. Drop the vest, unless it is in the period of a merchants' vest or better yet a French or British Military Officers' vest - this would indicate that you were successful in battle against a French or British Officer. This was very popular among Eastern Tribes. You would also see warriors with French and British Officers' Jackets/Coats with the sleaves torn off. Or you could also take a trade blanket of solid color and make what was called a Match Coat to keep you warm on those chilly days.
3. For your finger weaving, do not match the garters and the sash. I know that seems strange but they should not match - you must remember the time period and how hard trade was at the time in getting consistent materials. If possible try and get some of the finger weaving with beads worked into the weaving. And stay with cheveron, arrow, and fire designs.
4. Make sure that your ball club is not too curved and stay away from those kits that use a ball and a stick that you screw together - they just look like toys.
5. Get lots of Silver Work. Ball and Cone Earings are a must and so are Silver Ear Wheels in Eastern designs. Make sure your gorget is patterned after those of the French and British Officers as that is where they mostly came from. You could even do for a Silver Nose Ring (one that clips in) if you so desire. Also make sure that your Arm Bands are nice and wide and also of Silver.
If Real Silver is a bit out of your price range, German Silver is perfectly fine as it was widely traded at this time along with Real Silver.
6. If possilble get a neck knife instead of a patch knife that goes with the bag. This can get tricky as most neck knifes had some kinda of Quillwork on the sheath and even the handle.

You are correct in your center seamed moccs and center seamed leggings. Keep your Breach Cloth nice and simple (heavy decoration did not come until later).

An excellent place to see and buy both North Eastern and South Eastern Finger Weaving is Eholee Opal Designs. They have a great web-site. Go to Google and punch in Eholee Opal Designs.

Also check some of the paintings of the time period. Believe it or not they are very accurate unlike later works that were set up and staged in a painter's studio.

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Old 09-23-2003, 10:10 PM   #7
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I agree with Iron Eagle. While I am a Northern Tradish dancer, most elements of my regalia are very NorthEastern. I use stamped silver gorgets, armbands, and spreaders. My breechclout is black felt with ribbon trim. My leggins are buckskin, although alot of cloth leggins are worn by the Northeastern nations then and now. Although the roach started with us and was adopted farther west later, I prefer the look of the longer 18" roach as opposed to the crown or teardrop roach. Just personal preference. The muslin frontier or pioneer shirt as well as the hunters frock are very traditional, but a nice conservatively printed ribbon shirt is fine. Nothing too flashy if you are going for a period look. For instance, a ribbonshirt with chili pepper prints is a little out there. Assomption garters were very popular and one of the most distinguishing features seen. There are some cheaper ones out there, but the really nice ones cost big bucks indeed. But are well worth it. Often times these sashes and garters are worn in place of a bandolier or belt. My bustle is traditional brown turkey spikes in the poular U fashion. Many eastern bustles are not this way, but again it is personal choice. All in all it depends on what you are trying to do. Is this regalia more of a faithful recreation or for dancing and competition? Another point of interest was the unique way warriors of the Northeast Woodlands wore their hair. The Mohawk and the scalplock are very distinguishing. Just some thoughts. Also for body and warpaint we wore ALOT of red and blacks. Anyhoo I'm tired and probably rambling so I'll leave it at that lol
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Old 09-24-2003, 03:09 AM   #8
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I'm sorry, but the gustoweh is distinctly Iroquoian. And depending on your feather placement denotes which nation of the six, and NO FEATHER is TUSCARORA
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Old 09-24-2003, 10:10 AM   #9
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A perfect example of adaptdation is the Hair Roach. It is indigenous to the Eastern Tribes not the Plains and the West. The Roach was originally an Eastern "warriors" head gear - one had to earn the right to have one. And a true Roach was made of Turkey Beard Hair (no Deer Hair) with a Hair Base not Porcupine Hair/Deer Hair and a woven base! In fact it was not seen among the Western Tribes until the 19th Century.
Let me see if I get this. The plains people "adopted," the hair roach from the eastern tribes?? BUT yours are made from all different material's, so my guess would be they look different. So because we wear something on our head and you guys do too we adopted wearing a hat from you eastern tribes?? Now thats funny. You know I read somewhere that the eastern tribes adopted wearing a hat from the pilgrims?? :Chatter

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Old 09-24-2003, 11:52 AM   #10
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Some People Confuse Everything

No the idea of wearing a hat did not come form the Europeans. As you may know some Tribes did wear a "head dress" that seems more hat like than just "head gear" (this could be seen among the Tribes of the Artic and Sub-Artic Regions). However many Eastern Tribes and then Western Tribes did take up the idea of wearing hats just as the Europeans did.

But a "head gear" and "head dress" are not the same as a "hat." Cultures all over the world have "head gear," "head dresses," and even "hats."

The Hair Roach is not indeginous to the Plains Tribes and the Western Tribes. That is common sense. You would not see a Roach used as a "head dress" among the Plains tribes unitil the very late 18th Century and then almost the entire 19th Century.

Through various contacts, trade, and movement, however: the Hair Roach did travel across the country and was "adapted" by many tribes.

And the Eastern Tribes did have Hair Roaches made of various hair including Deer, Moose, and Porcupine. But the most valued and prestigous was a Roach made from Turkey Beard Hair.

Please do not confuse the conotation of "adapt" and the various types of dress that has changed and been accepted by contact, trade and of course movement.

Example: Remember the Great Horse Culture of the Plains could not exsist with out the introduction of the Horse to the Plains by the Spanish. The Plains Indians learned to "adapt" to the use of this animal and became some of the Greatest Horsemen known.
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Old 09-24-2003, 01:33 PM   #11
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Don't sweat it Iron Eagle. You'll find certain people from the Plains nations that like to think that all things native begin and end with them. When you correct them or say something they may not agree with, that automatically makes you a...what was it?...Oh a pretendian. Get bent.
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Old 09-24-2003, 02:25 PM   #12
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Logic

As usual you are right Speedy.

Some people have a problem with just plain common sense and the use of just plain common logic.

By the way: Even though I am Creek/Seminole I like using a Roach sometimes too. And depending on how I feel or what event I am at I will use the shorter roach or the longer roach. The main reason is it is good to have more than one.
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Old 09-24-2003, 03:08 PM   #13
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thanx guys alot of help now any 1 sellin stuff..:)
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Old 09-24-2003, 11:33 PM   #14
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Check This Out

To Post182 and others interested in North East or South East Woodland stuff:

Please check out -
Eholee-Opal Designs
www.craftsmandesigns.com

I got a sash and garters from these guys years ago and it still looks great with all the things that I do. They have wonderful Finger Weaving in authentic Woodland Designs.

And beleive it when I say that this weaving is as good as the weaving of Dick Carney. If you know anything about Finger Weaving you know that Dick Carney was The BEST.

These guys are just as good because some of the people that Dick taught and had weave for him are Eholee-Opal. And the prices really are not that bad if you have ever really priced excellent Finger Weaving.
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Old 09-25-2003, 03:58 PM   #15
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Cool

Quote:
sweat it Iron Eagle. You'll find certain people from the Plains nations that like to think that all things native begin and end with them. When you correct them or say something they may not agree with, that automatically makes you a...what was it?...Oh a pretendian. Get bent.
You know speedy if being "native begin and end with them," why ya all copy us? I mean you all want to dance pow wow style and I don't think that started in the east, well tom did it start in the east? Maybe it did and we "adapted" it?? This would just be a guess but natives who have lost their culture latch on to anything that will readily identify them as being Indian. Because they have no culture to identify with and plains culture has been romantized in movies you all latch on to this to prove your "native." You know if you are an east coast native be proud of that, learn east coast native ways. Leave the Indian stuff to real Indians.
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Old 09-25-2003, 05:31 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Steve StopsOnTime
You know speedy if being "native begin and end with them," why ya all copy us? I mean you all want to dance pow wow style and I don't think that started in the east, well tom did it start in the east? Maybe it did and we "adapted" it?? This would just be a guess but natives who have lost their culture latch on to anything that will readily identify them as being Indian. Because they have no culture to identify with and plains culture has been romantized in movies you all latch on to this to prove your "native." You know if you are an east coast native be proud of that, learn east coast native ways. Leave the Indian stuff to real Indians.
Who is y'all? You crack me up dude, you think your nation created everything eh? Everybody biting off you? Get over yourself. Native people of ALL nations had social gatherings that involved dancing and singing. Matter of fact Powwow, or pauwau is an ALGONQUIN word. We have many traditions, songs, and dance styles that have nothing to do with the Western skins. Granted, if you dance a certain style your regalia should be just that. Northern Traditional, Fancy Dance, Straight, Grass, and the many different styles as well as the variations in regalia didn't all start with just your people. Native peoples have shared and borrowed many different things from each other for thousands of years. In case you didn't know, we were battling whites for 400 years or so before the West saw its first white man. It took them not even half that time to eradicate native resistance everywhere else. Many nations lost thier culture and heritage to different degrees, the Eastern nations more than most because we have been here since all this trouble began! But we are still here and we know who we are. Leave the "Indian stuff" to real indians. What a crock of [email protected] What are you 12?
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Old 09-25-2003, 08:36 PM   #17
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You know that's exactly what I am saying. Learn about your own stuff before it is all gone. Everytime one your elders dies, you lose a library you will never get back. Save what culture you can before it is gone. "Adapting," plains style stuff isn't don't a thing for sustaining or bring by your culture. If dressing up like another tribe makes you feel native, than I truely feel sorry for you and your people.

And by the way, in case YOU didn't know we have been facing the white man for just as long as your people. We just had better immgration laws.
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Old 09-25-2003, 09:45 PM   #18
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damn fella's come on

this was a post about eastern outfits not who started what

u both are acting like your 5 but werd i cant stop ya im just sayin from a 15 year olds point of view this is rediculous
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Old 09-25-2003, 10:20 PM   #19
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Steve, Steve, Steve.

Steve, Why must you be so "...strange?..."

We are being Eastern Indians, you are the one trying to keep us from doing that by telling us we do not know what we are doing.

Post182 asked about Eastern Clothing to make sure he was staying to his roots and culture. We were trying to help but then you step in and call people "pretend" among other things.

I suppose you are going to say that the Dances, Songs, Music, Art, etc. of the many Eastern Tribes from what is now Maine to Florida is also pretend. Well you have pretty much already inferred that with your mid-placed modifiers and language. That is not wise as many an Elder from the East that now lives in the West and still does the Eastern Dances and Songs would take great offense to that.

And yes "powwow" is from the East. Do some serious research and you would even realize the the word "powwow" is from the Eastern People. That thread has already been discussed on this web-site many times (refer to archives if need be).

And remember that today's powwow is also "intertribal" because all are welcome to dance and they have "intertribal dances and songs." If you don't want other Tribes and other styles of dress, etc. then don't advertise/market the powwow as "public welcome" or "all dancers welcome" and don't even use the word "intertribal."

Being be-little is not very Native. Native America was and still is very Vast. While we all have our unique styles of dress, life, and culture differences, we are still all Native American and have a very unique bond that other races and people here on Earth do not have.

Please do not destroy that by being so immature when discovering the sameness and the differences of our People. It is the sameness and difference that makes us so special to ourselfs' and to the one that it is most important - The Creator.

Last edited by Tom Iron Eagle; 09-25-2003 at 10:23 PM..
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Old 09-26-2003, 01:44 AM   #20
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For certain dance styles on the powwow circuit, at least in competition, you must stay within certain boundaries which pretty much all nations have agreed upon. While a bustle is a must for Northern Tradish dancers there are different styles such as the Crow, Eastern, Oklahoma style, and the popular U shape which was modified by the Sioux who added uprights amongst other things. What compromises a Northern Traditional dancers regalia originated from many different tribes. Not just one. Now ceremonial regalia is totally different. Granted there are wannabes out there with some really whacked out "regalia" but natives of all nations must suffer these people. They do not represent us at all. When I dance Northern Traditional my [email protected] is straight. We nations of the Northeast Woodlands as well as all East Coast tribes have our own ways, language, identity, and culture. What you are saying is if it didn't originate there, don't wear it. Well take off your roach then, that came from here for instance. Where did the ribbon shirt originate? Did your nation specifically create it or did its popularity spread tribe to tribe over time? Just some examples. Powwow doesn't belong to any one nation or tribe. It belongs to all of us as native people. Who have all agreed how certain dances be done, and certain dance regalia should look within the boundaries of tradition of course. Some traditions and regalia have roots out West no doubt, as well as some of the regalia and traditions having roots up here in the East. Remember at some of the largest powwows there are many many nations coming together to dance and sing. It would be stupid to think that today, as in the past style and custom don't rub off on all of us. It has been that way for a very long time. Powwows today are a way all nations can get together and share a common form of dancing. So to say, "Hey they are copying us" doesn't make sense. Because with that mentality we could say the same exact thing. I'm sure every nation has contibuted something readily seen to the Powwow as we know it today. Ceremony and traditions should always be strictly observed according to each nations ways. But powwow is an intertribal gathering where a Northern Tradish dancer could be from Maine or Montana. As long as their representing themselves and their respective nations well, and dancing correctly, thats all anyone cares about. Nobody is copying anything when certain regalia and dance styles have been agreed upon by everyone. Each nation has a story of creation. Most, if not all nations, refer to themselves as "The People", Who is wrong? Who started everything? It is stupid to argue these points. The Powwow as we know it is fairly new, some of the dances are fairly new as well. When nations from coast to coast gather together of course we share these dances with each other. It has been our way as native peoples for a very long time to do so. We have our elders to teach us the old ways, where we came from, our languages, and traditions. Most of these things do not have a place in the powwow, as it was meant as a social gathering not ceremonial or religious. What we are saying is while alot of elements of Western nations are seen in the powwow, we also bring our own and are proud to see other nations wearing certain regalia that came to be with us and now belong to all nations when they powwow. We were just stating the fact that the roach was one of them.
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