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Old 11-05-2011, 09:15 PM   #1
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Gonna be first time next year...suggestions welcome!

I plan on dancing Men's Northern Traditional next year in honor of my mother who passed away this past May and to honor my ancestors. I was wondering about a few things that I hope some of you out there could help me out with. You know the old saying: no question is a dumb question? Please keep that in mind...lol.

First question...is there any kind of pointers you can give me for dancing. I know this is one of the biggest catagories many men are going to, not just for regalia but for dancing. I know how to do the basic dance, but since this would be my first time in the arena (excluding intertribals), would love some pointers from experienced people out there.

Second question...has anyone seen the fully beaded belts with just one side-drop? I have seen it from one person at the Moccasin Trail Powwow at Atwood Lake (Ohio) last month...he had his sash act like a drop on the other side. Is this allowed?

Third, and please don't think this is dumb, but if I'm going to dance at my first powwow, do I still go through the Grand Entry with everyone else prior to my honor dance, Or would I find this out the day I register...lol? (If you can tell, I have few people to ask these questions to near me, and rather listen to my brothers out here with the experience to help me out.)

Oh! Also, I noticed many warclubs, but no hawks...are these allowed for dancing with? Otherwise, I can just use my dance stick I have here with a flint spearhead on it...or is that way too much still?

I know headgear is all different, from roaches, to feathered caps to even animal hides. Anyway...here's what I have so far, and if I left ANYTHING out, please point it out: ribbon shirt, beaded vest, apron, beaded moccasins, dance stick or decorated tomahawk, metal armbands; what I know I need is a bustle, and possibly a roach unless someone suggests to go with the animal hide...lol. Even I see way too many roaches out there - like in the 2011 Manito Ahbee Pow Wow...lol. Right now, all I have for my legs are some black sweat pants - and am I reading right that I could just wear those with my regalia and not bother with leggings?

I know there's a lot here that I asked about, but I hope that someone can help me in advance prior to next year's Ohio powwow circuit.

Wado ahead of time!

Eric

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Old 11-06-2011, 01:46 AM   #2
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I would recommend you find an elder / older Tradish to learn some things before you jump in there ! Good luck !
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Old 11-06-2011, 01:45 PM   #3
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I'll tell you the truth...I wasn't raised up with any elders around, being my great great grandmother was stolen from the Dene Suline up in Canada and brought down here to be adopted by a white family, then married to a half-blood (my G G Grandfather), then everything being covered up until my mother broke it free doing the geneology and DNA testing.

So, there are no elders to ask these things about around where I live, and I don't know of any Northern Traditional dancers that lives in my area (Canton, OH)...unless someone does and can let me know who so I can go look them up and go meet them.

Eric

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I would recommend you find an elder / older Tradish to learn some things before you jump in there ! Good luck !
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Old 11-07-2011, 03:26 PM   #4
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Maybe you should go back to Canada to find some answers to your questions before you start dancing.
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Old 11-08-2011, 12:36 AM   #5
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As long as you stay in Ohio, you can shame your lost family ancestors and no one will pay attention. Be the clown and the life of the powwow.
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:26 PM   #6
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Look, I don't know who you people are who are putting me down, but at least the first guy had some respect and kept any snide comments to himself.

If you think I'm a wannabe, I'm not. I have the proof, I can't help the rez's down here wants to go by white man rolls, otherwise I'd already have been registered in the Eastern Shawnee of Oklahoma. As it is, none of my ancestors made it to the rez...that one died along the way, while the other barely could remember her past. It's not MY fault what happened in the past, but it matters in the present and future that all tribes take responsibility for themselves and know that other tribes are their brothers and sisters...including my Dene Suline, even if they are from the far north.

And as I know...pow wow is for ALL tribes, not just those of the United States. I also know that the Northern Traditional is a relaxed dance, with many different styles of regalia, and I already got the basics of how to dance it.

As to the two of you...I was born here in Ohio, never was a Canadian resident...but you don't EVER treat the other tribes like you did me. We are "Mitakuye Oyasin", as the Lakota say it, all my relations...or have your teachings and values you grew up with without that? If so, apparently you were taught wrongly.

It seems I know more about my people than you know of your own. I'm sorry, but you harrass me, I hit back.

PS: wardancer, if you're out there, sorry for you to be seeing this. Thank you for your advice, at least it was without criticism and was respectful.
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:55 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by redhawk45 View Post
Look, I don't know who you people are who are putting me down, but at least the first guy had some respect and kept any snide comments to himself.

If you think I'm a wannabe, I'm not. I have the proof, I can't help the rez's down here wants to go by white man rolls, otherwise I'd already have been registered in the Eastern Shawnee of Oklahoma. As it is, none of my ancestors made it to the rez...that one died along the way, while the other barely could remember her past. It's not MY fault what happened in the past, but it matters in the present and future that all tribes take responsibility for themselves and know that other tribes are their brothers and sisters...including my Dene Suline, even if they are from the far north.

And as I know...pow wow is for ALL tribes, not just those of the United States. I also know that the Northern Traditional is a relaxed dance, with many different styles of regalia, and I already got the basics of how to dance it.

As to the two of you...I was born here in Ohio, never was a Canadian resident...but you don't EVER treat the other tribes like you did me. We are "Mitakuye Oyasin", as the Lakota say it, all my relations...or have your teachings and values you grew up with without that? If so, apparently you were taught wrongly.

It seems I know more about my people than you know of your own. I'm sorry, but you harrass me, I hit back.

PS: wardancer, if you're out there, sorry for you to be seeing this. Thank you for your advice, at least it was without criticism and was respectful.
People who know me, know I'm not one to put anybody down. People who know me also know I speak directly.

It's an opinion of this old man, if you so much of your people, that you would go to them for a) knowledge and guidance of the dance, and b) ask them to dress you and bring you into the circle.

To say there were too many porcupine roaches at the Manito Ahbee powwow only shows your ignorance. Now understand that ignorant means not knowing, not being dumb. The vast majority of Eagle Bustle dancers wear roaches, so to make a statement of too many roaches shows your lack of experience.

Now I don't know how many powwows you have been to, but my first one was in 1973. I've had the opportunity to attend many powwows across the country. I've never met a member of the Dene Suline tribe of Canada. But, then again, there are many more tribes that I have not met a member of.

The members who have told you to take tobacco to an elder have told you correctly. The internet is not a place for such matters. You are probably right. You will not get many answers here as there are many answers to your questions.

But then, I'm just an old man enjoying taking a breath today. We'll see what happens tomorrow...tomorrow.
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:22 PM   #8
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Ah-hopes, we have ourselves a DNA Indian amongst us.

http://airos.org/redhawk45

Submitted by redhawk45 on March 8, 2010 - 4:30pm
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The history, my background, and how I got to where I am today is a long one, but I shall summerize to the best of my ability. I was not raised Native, I didn't even know I had Native blood, nor did my mother. Geneological research proved limiting, so a DNA test showed what we were of. When we did the geneology, we did find the Native American aspect in us, but we didn't know how much, etc. From then on, I started to get engrossed in many art forms, from flint knapping, to Native American craftwork, to playing the flute and drums. I had an innate ability when it came to these things. When I started playing on the cedar flute, I just knew why I did lousy in band in elementary and middle school...I hated going by sheet music. The cedar flute is meant to be played from the heart and spirit, which I accelled at. Around the same time, I had became interested in composing/creating music on Acid Music Studio, whereby I use loops I would find, or create my own, and make a song out of it.

Today, I call myself a professional when it comes to the cedar flute, drumming, and composing music. The DNA test two and a half years ago proved our heritage. I may only have 1/16th Dene Suline/Shawnee/Cree within me, but I am proud of that fact. I do not consider myself to be part this, or part that...you can only be one thing, and I am Native American, even if I cannot be a member of a tribe on a reservation.
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:32 PM   #9
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Well , regardless of where he came from or how he found out , He is here and he is asking questions. Perhaps his honesty in that profile is a good start. Way better than those that come on here knowing everything ! ( when in reality they know nothing)
Give the guy a break wanji , J'sD.....just another old man's opinion.....
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They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

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Old 11-08-2011, 10:13 PM   #10
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The Denesuline are about a two hour drive from where I am. There is a community in Cold Lake - that's hardly the far north it sits at the 55 parallel. Perhaps you should write to them and ask your questions. As for whether you consider yourself a Canadian is irrelevant to your questions. Your Denesuline family are all up here.

I have Tlingit family that live in Alaska. Does it matter that I'm not a US resident... nope... they are still my family.

If your grandmother was apprehended as a child then the Band membership office will still have her records. Sounds like you haven't looked very far into her family's band.

I know bands that put aside treaty money for every single person who is a member even if they haven't been to the community for decades. Have you asked for her info from the Cdn Archives or AAND? You may very well be a member of her community and entitled to band membership through her... it will depend however, what the membership criteria is for that band.

You see Hawk, Indians up here in Canada, next to Hudson Bay records, are the most meticulously documented group ever to exist on paper. In a matter of a few minutes searching online, I was able to find the name of my grandchildren's paternal ancestor's name. If your grandmother's people traded with the HBC they will be documented. The HBC kept superlative records going back to the early 1600s. Stories as you have told, these days are met with a healthy dose of skepticism as the records have all been de-classified and available to the public (especially up here in Canada with Bill C-31 coming into effect in 1985). In most cases, if you don't have details about your ancestor then the fables heard around the dinner table are usually contrived.

We have a central registrar for Indian Affairs and there is no reason why you can't get info on your grandmother. I talk to them all the time.

Quote:
The Indian Registrar

Under the Indian Act, the Indian Registrar—an employee of AANDC—is responsible for maintaining the Indian Register. The Registrar is the sole authority for determining which names will be added, deleted or omitted from the Register. In order to determine who is entitled to be registered as a Status Indian, the Registrar must be able to confirm that the person is descended from people who were recognized as members of an Indian band. The Indian Act defines the categories of people who are eligible for registration as Indians.
http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100032475

By the way, the Denesuline up here don't have pow-wows... they have treaty days. Cold Lake Treaty Days
Cold Lake First Nation, AB 1-888-222-7183

Now, for your comment using a Lakota phrase and chastising a Lakota man with it... very bad move on your part. Contrary to your belief... each one of us comes from a unique and distinct First Nation... I resent being lumped in a pan-indian expression and told I was taught wrongly by a person who may have some ties with a First Nation. My people do not have a view that we are "all related". I speak all three of my family's languages as well as their eight dialects.. how many of yours do you speak? By the sounds of it.. you like to borrow words from a First Nation that is not your own.

Not all First Nations are pow wow people... so your statement:
Quote:
And as I know...pow wow is for ALL tribes, not just those of the United States. I also know that the Northern Traditional is a relaxed dance, with many different styles of regalia, and I already got the basics of how to dance it.
Is quite erroneous. Traditional dancers are anything but a relaxed style... it takes strength to carry the regalia and keep up the pace. Good gawd man, that was the most naive statements I've ever seen... and you wonder why folks aren't taking you seriously?

Wardancer gave the best advise... take some tobacco to a dancer and ask them.. if you expect to sit comfortably in Ohio until one comes along... you'll have a long wait... if you want it, go find it.
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:27 PM   #11
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The Denesuline are about a two hour drive from where I am. There is a community in Cold Lake - that's hardly the far north it sits at the 55 parallel. Perhaps you should write to them and ask your questions. As for whether you consider yourself a Canadian is irrelevant to your questions. Your Denesuline family are all up here.

I have Tlingit family that live in Alaska. Does it matter that I'm not a US resident... nope... they are still my family.

If your grandmother was apprehended as a child then the Band membership office will still have her records. Sounds like you haven't looked very far into her family's band.

I know bands that put aside treaty money for every single person who is a member even if they haven't been to the community for decades. Have you asked for her info from the Cdn Archives or AAND? You may very well be a member of her community and entitled to band membership through her... it will depend however, what the membership criteria is for that band.

You see Hawk, Indians up here in Canada, next to Hudson Bay records, are the most meticulously documented group ever to exist on paper. In a matter of a few minutes searching online, I was able to find the name of my grandchildren's paternal ancestor's name. If your grandmother's people traded with the HBC they will be documented. The HBC kept superlative records going back to the early 1600s. Stories as you have told, these days are met with a healthy dose of skepticism as the records have all been de-classified and available to the public (especially up here in Canada with Bill C-31 coming into effect in 1985). In most cases, if you don't have details about your ancestor then the fables heard around the dinner table are usually contrived.

We have a central registrar for Indian Affairs and there is no reason why you can't get info on your grandmother. I talk to them all the time.

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100032475

By the way, the Denesuline up here don't have pow-wows... they have treaty days. Cold Lake Treaty Days
Cold Lake First Nation, AB 1-888-222-7183

Now, for your comment using a Lakota phrase and chastising a Lakota man with it... very bad move on your part. Contrary to your belief... each one of us comes from a unique and distinct First Nation... I resent being lumped in a pan-indian expression and told I was taught wrongly by a person who may have some ties with a First Nation. My people do not have a view that we are "all related". I speak all three of my family's languages as well as their eight dialects.. how many of yours do you speak? By the sounds of it.. you like to borrow words from a First Nation that is not your own.

Not all First Nations are pow wow people... so your statement:

Is quite erroneous. Traditional dancers are anything but a relaxed style... it takes strength to carry the regalia and keep up the pace. Good gawd man, that was the most naive statements I've ever seen... and you wonder why folks aren't taking you seriously?

Wardancer gave the best advise... take some tobacco to a dancer and ask them.. if you expect to sit comfortably in Ohio until one comes along... you'll have a long wait... if you want it, go find it.
Your advice isn't too shabby either. It never is.
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"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

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Old 11-09-2011, 12:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhawk45 View Post
Look, I don't know who you people are who are putting me down, but at least the first guy had some respect and kept any snide comments to himself.
I think you need to re-read the posts here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgirl7 View Post
Maybe you should go back to Canada to find some answers to your questions before you start dancing.
The above is saying that you should go to the tribe in Canada ask some questions and see what answers they give you and take their advice, before you start dancing. To me that doesn't sound like @kgirl17 is putting you down, she is just merely trying to point you in the right direction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wanjica_the_one View Post
As long as you stay in Ohio, you can shame your lost family ancestors and no one will pay attention. Be the clown and the life of the powwow.
Now this is an example of someone putting you down... Wanji does this to a lot of people on here. Most of the time its just simple humor to test how flaky a person is. I'm not defending him, I'm just pointing out his bad behavior.

Understand this though. The internet isn't always the best place to go. It is full of jumbled and sometimes incorrect information that is just going to further confuse you and complicate your research. While we are on the subject of Wanji ripping on Ohio... Powwows in OH, PA, NJ, WV, southeastern NY, and a few other NE states can differ significantly from what powwows are like elsewhere. Sometimes these are better referred to as festivals. There are plenty of bad powwows in those areas that are perpetrated by frauds, and wannabes, and some down right crazy people. Wanji tends to generalize all people from those areas as one or more of those categories. Is he right, sometimes... There are plenty of full bloods and mix-breeds in those areas - I know that for a fact. They are usually the ones paid to be head man or lady or they are the drum.

I could go on a bit more, but please take what the others (sans-Wanji) and I have told you as advice and not as putting you down.

Well I'm going to get back to work now, these video files aren't going to encode themselves... LOL
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:27 PM   #13
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Now this is an example of someone putting you down... Wanji does this to a lot of people on here. Most of the time its just simple humor to test how flaky a person is. I'm not defending him, I'm just pointing out his bad behavior.
Just laugh with the punches.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:40 PM   #14
I pull your leg out!
 
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Wanji, you remind me of the character "Skeeter" from South Park. Whenever someone says or does something around him he always says "Hey you (insert name) we don't take kindly to your type 'round here"... LOL
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Old 11-09-2011, 07:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
Wanji, you remind me of the character "Skeeter" from South Park. Whenever someone says or does something around him he always says "Hey you (insert name) we don't take kindly to your type 'round here"... LOL
Well, I was doing some detective work and came across this:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...p/t-38056.html

Targe05-02-2004, 03:20 AM
Guys, be very, very careful if dealing with Eric M of Ohio. Eric M is a CONVICTED ARTIFACT THIEF! Yep, he was convicted by the State of Ohio for stealing an artifact from a State Forrest and -get this- POSTING ABOUT IT AND BRAGGING ABOUT IT ON THE INTERNET!

He also offered to sell the artifact on the internet. If he had actually succeeded in selling it and shipping to someone from another state, he would have had a FEDERAL violation on his record. As it was, he got off with only a Misdemeanor.

About 18 months ago, Eric M started posting on an artifact collecting board that he was (1) An Archaeologist (2) a Certified Artifact Authenticator with (3) a letter from a Professional Archaeologist he incorrectly identifed as "Dr. Harkness".

The point is that Eric will LIE and fabricate credentials. Plus, he does not listen to reason and experience when warned that what he was doing was illegal. If he'll stubbornly refuse to heed good advice in one area (artifacts), I doubt he'll show much better judgement in others, such as reptile collecting/keeping. In other words, be VERY CAREFUL if you consider entering into any transactions with this guy or you might find yourself a material witness in some sort of legal case due to Eric M's rank disregard for the law and lack of common sense.

Last edited by wardancer; 11-09-2011 at 09:55 PM.. Reason: names and locations
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:00 AM   #16
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Point understood, Wanji. Hopefully Eric will log in an tell us his side of the story. I'm not one to personally go digging for someone's past or about who they are unless they do or say something otherwise - in which case I could probably have everything down to their birth certificate in no time at all... LOL. Anyways, I'm interested to see what Eric has to say in regards to the last few postings here and to what you have dug up from the bowels of the internet.
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Old 11-10-2011, 07:08 PM   #17
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Hmmm...how do I explain all this from everyone? I wish I knew how to multi-quote from different people.

When Wanji found my acidplanet account, that's the truth I posted there. I told you the truth that I didn't grow up with my people - my people are a thousand miles away, and it seems hundreds of miles away from the nearest elder. I came onto here for kind advice, not get antagonized for who I am. True, you all don't know me, and I don't know you, but I don't ever start off a conversation like Wanji did. You usually are respectful of someone until you get to understand them.

Two, the other half of what wanji found is a full lie. Years ago, I had a hacker that kept on following me from place to place on the web, even destroyed two MSN group sites (when they had groups), and even destroyed my mother's business she was trying to start online. This guy, Charles R. (will NOT post his full last name, for I don't need him to find me again and destroy this site) works for the army on their computers, and has access to computers. How I know is my mother did an IP trace using a called Black Ice - sorta like an anti-virus program. We told his superior, and the last I heard he was being investigated. How he clung to me was because of an artifact site that I was on, inquiring on this and that. If I could go to that reptile site (for which I was on way before any artifact site and forgot the email/password to that site) and get that erased, I would.

But, that was years ago, and somehow I was able to lose Charles and his hacking ability. And, like I said, I haven't heard nada from him or about him for years. There, I cut open my chest and bared my heart. I really shouldn't have to explain myself to no one unless they plan on being friends with me.

And yea, call me a DNA indian all you want...but it's not my fault that my family decided to cover that part up. Mid 1800's there wasn't suppose to be any Indians on this side of the Mississippi unless they were in boarding school and accounted for. My g. g. grandmother went through that most likely, but my g g grandfather didn't. He still stuck to be a farmer, and she married him, and then covered it all back up. All this probably is in the family bible, but a cousin is still hiding it up in their attic...and I guess since my mom passed on, it's my problem on confronting and requesting it. Anyway, as wanji said, roll with the punches - i guess it's better being called a DNA Indian than a wannabe.

Speaking about knowledge...I don't partain to know everything - in fact, I loathe people younger than me who thinks they know everything. I didn't mean to put down the roaches, for example. Being this is the internet, you can't tell a person's intentions and inflections in speach. I love how roaches move with the dancer...but I was inquiring on it as I have a full wolf hide here that I have had since 2001 that I haven't figured out what to do with, how to incorporate that into my regalia (even if I have to cut it up some), and I want to learn about traditional headwear of the Dene Suline and how it's made - I've seen only a couple (one online, another in a book). Will I still go with a roach, yea...but love to have more than just one thing to wear.

Tool...I understand that some pow wows in this area may be bad...but I know that a few are big: Mohican Powwow, the Memorial Day Powwow in Columbus..just to name a couple. I would never go to 'small' pow wows...that'd be a waste of my time and energy. I expect to fully go out of state next year, or maybe the year after...as long as I can find a hotel that can allow pets. I have a cat that'll come along with me. Yea, I love camping, but that's the prob when you have animals that you don't want to board up. While on pow wows...anyone hear of the Shawnee URB pow wows that happen in Bellefantaine( sp?) Ohio and how good they are?

yaahl - Thank you for the advice. Violet March from Cold Lake has actually told me to get in touch with them up there, and even starting helping me with language by directing me to FirstVoices website. Though, I don't know how far they could help, for I don't know my g g grandmother's original name (Yea, it's great great, not just grandmother...lol). Upon bringing her down here, she was named Sarah Jane, and last name Swank via adoption. That was a time and a half, trying to figure out why her 'parents' weren't listing her as a blood child, yet in census she was living with them, carrying their last name. I also am piling together the paperwork to send to the Indian and Northern Affairs Canada to possibly get registered, but postpone for I don't know which band of Dene Suline Sarah Jane came from. I'm attaching a photo (hopefully it works) of my great great grandparents. And what I know is based off of genealogy, DNA, and research. (also, my g. g. grandmother was supposidly born in 1854).

Treaty Days...I actually like it being named that than pow wows...lol.

Anyway, I may have a tad help in that department anyway...there's a Indian community center up near Akron here and I heard they would help do a trace for me for free. I have to hear it from the horse's mouth, first, before I believe it. The last trace to do is to find the appropriate boarding school or adoption record (if the latter exists), then match Sarah Jane's original name to a Dene Suline Band in Canada.

Yaahl..I also apologize to lumping everyone up together as one and will refrain from discussing this further. It's about as bad as talking politics, for which I don't speak of at all. As to the Northern Traditional being a relaxed dance...you mis-read what I was explaining. I know it's a vigorous dance, but what I meant was the regalia that's used is preference of the dancer, though I know there's a certain common base that everyone uses - which is what I was trying to get at.

As to dancing...definately won't be automatically dancing in the first pow wow of the season here. Next one there is (a serious one) I'll go in what I have so far and do what yaahl suggests with the tobacco. I'm thankful I still have some around when I don't smoke anymore...lol. I quit that habit back in February.

As to the 'old men'...if you can still teach, if you can still dance, then you're not so old...you're just wise, that's all.
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Old 11-11-2011, 04:05 PM   #18
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RH45,

You can do what you want in Ohio. You can dance in any form or manner that you want. Just take tobacco and ask.

WTO
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Old 11-11-2011, 06:39 PM   #19
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After taking the time to skim some other threads, I can understand the animosity...someone 2 years ago or so asked the same basic question as I did. Sorry for if I seemed redundant then...I didn't mean to have it be like that, but I sometimes have the notion of asking before looking on forums like these. It's a form of wanting results quickly even if I have quite a lot of time still to learn.
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Old 11-13-2011, 12:53 PM   #20
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It's a form of wanting results quickly even if I have quite a lot of time still to learn.
You have what we call "white folk syndrome." It's always, give me, give me more and give it to me now or I will huff and puff and trample you until I get my way.
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