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Old 12-23-2003, 10:57 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhoMe
The modern visor was an invention/innovation of a Pawnee man named Pete Moore Sr. He first wore the eagle tail visor at the annual Sicangu Powwow in Rosebud, South Dakota in the early 80's. If anybody knows of the visor being worn prior to that - please post.
COOOOOL deal.... The Moore family has made alot of innovations and produced a lot of good dancers and singers (Bravescout in da house!)

I think they also created the shoulder feathers, but not sure. Here's how I heard it worked - back in the day, Kiowa and Comanche men in the NAC wore a bundle of feathers on their shoulder attached to their bandolier to signal that they were a member of the NAC. That spread from SW Okla to other folks along with the NAC.... Fast forward a few (dozen) years, and Joe Fish Dupoint, Vernon Harragara (sp?), and Johnny Hughes used to have fixed shoulder fans on their left shoulders w/ their straight dance clothes - and if I remember right, all those guys were NAC. The Moore family is really involved in the NAC, and kinda elaborated on that idea of shoulder feathers..... so to me, those shoulder fans are emblems of NAC membership, though 99% of the tradish dancers that wear them probably don't believe/know that.

Anyway, back to roaches.... I think most tradish dancers today just wear two feathers cause everbody else does. I always heard (from Omaha folks) that if you wore an old style crow-belt bustle, you were only supposed to wear one feather in your roach - again tied to Hethushka. Don't have a clue about when two feathers came in.... though I'd bet it was in South Dakota in the 1920s and 1930s - I think I've seen some pics of dancers @ Pine Ridge and/or Rosebud from the 1930s wearing two roach feathers & the round bustles.
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Old 12-25-2003, 12:31 PM   #22
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Quote:
I think most tradish dancers today just wear two feathers cause everbody else does. I always heard (from Omaha folks) that if you wore an old style crow-belt bustle, you were only supposed to wear one feather in your roach - again tied to Hethushka. Don't have a clue about when two feathers came in.... though I'd bet it was in South Dakota in the 1920s and 1930s - I think I've seen some pics of dancers @ Pine Ridge and/or Rosebud from the 1930s wearing two roach feathers & the round bustles. [/B]
There are a couple old pics from the Smithsonian in the Evans book one says it's from 1890. Some of the dancers in that picture as well as the other pitures are wearing 2 roach feathers. There aren't dates for the other pitures, but I'd be willing to bet they are from the same period Str8Dancer49 is talking about.
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Old 12-31-2003, 12:21 PM   #23
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No. Trad; gourd stitch, it works well.

wasn't there a thread a while back that someone , talked bout some grass dancer that got a porcupine on his head and danced into the arena... i'll have to look for it .

Rob
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Old 01-01-2004, 08:56 PM   #24
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porcupine???

am i reading this right? if not tell me. sombody wore a living porcupine into a dancing arena?
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Old 01-01-2004, 11:39 PM   #25
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A few months ago Steve Stops on Time gave his version of the orgins of the porky roach. Which included someone wearing a porky on their head into the areana. It was in the Grass Dance Forum I think.
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Old 01-02-2004, 12:04 PM   #26
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Re: stuff

Man those visors look sharp! From what I know, the visor goes back further than the 80s. Great grandma-bun used to talk about the trickster and backwards men (two seperate groups) that would wear tails over the front of thier heads. Nothing more backwards or goofy than wearing an bird *** on your head, she would say.


Diddle- Nope, I'd say not strictly Southern. Lots of fellas in Ontario wear these things, and they tend to shy away from anything stouhern, especially if it comes from the united states ;)

I think one good thing to keep in mind with these origin questions is parallel evolution- the same thing coming up in different places at around the same time. I'm pretty sure it's all been done before someplace else at another time. Never hurts to spread the credit around ;)

Quote:
Originally posted by diddle1
Man this is alright. Do the shoulder feathers,epaulets come from the place??? I've always heard of those items being "Southern" but never heard anything definite. I think the spelling is Wapegneka-- I think,,, keep on with the good posts this is fun

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Old 01-04-2004, 08:01 PM   #27
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Cool need help finding a roach

I am looking for a 20 or a 22 inch roach, a 3 layer (deer,porky,deer) with the outer layer dyed light blue.
So if someone knowing an URL,phone # or an e-mail where i can find this please drop me an email............................................. .................................................. [email protected] [email protected]

i got one once before from painted buffalo...........................
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Old 01-05-2004, 02:27 PM   #28
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ndnrage- Send a private message to powwowbum49, he builds nice roaches. If you look in the gallery, you can see some examples of his roaches.
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Old 01-07-2004, 09:32 PM   #29
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I have a question

I am curious about the difference in wearing roaches...most wear the roach almost on top of the head....and I see some wearing them on the back of the head...those ones sometimes are not spread out...how long are they usually?...I hear people saying they are an old style....and well since many of you have alot of knowledge on roaches I felt I should pose this question here....thanks for any information you can give....
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Old 01-12-2004, 02:01 PM   #30
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Re: Re: stuff

Quote:
Originally posted by sookout sh'nob
Man those visors look sharp! From what I know, the visor goes back further than the 80s. Great grandma-bun used to talk about the trickster and backwards men (two seperate groups) that would wear tails over the front of thier heads. Nothing more backwards or goofy than wearing an bird *** on your head, she would say. ;)
Yeah, that was my gut instict tellin' me visors appeared earlier than the 80's up north. We just didn't see em' before then down here in the south, ya know? And your info about the backwards men (contraries, we call 'em) is wayyyyy coooool! That totally makes sense!:Thumbs
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Old 08-06-2004, 08:59 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTrad. Eagle Scout
My spreader is German Silver, too, and I was wondering what would be the best way to bead the sockets and to attach a beaded drop to the roach.

PS Great info on this post!


Wrap duck tape around the sockets and gourd{peyote} stitch em....the duck tape wont slide in case yer wonerin why
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Old 10-25-2004, 05:09 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
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Roaches are a main article for all men's powwow dances.

LET'S TALK ROACHES

What region did the roach originate from?
whichever tribe decided, "hey im gonna tie porky hair together and where it"

What tribe(s) originally wore the roach?

again, whichever decided to tie them together, and i thank them for doing so. because i am a roach maker, and i know who taught me, that is all i need to know

Who was allowed to wear a roach in the 1800's?

men of course.

What are different materials roaches are made of?

some people use horsehair but they tend to flop forward and look weird, to me anyways.

Why do some tribes wear one feather and others wear two?

depends on the area, northern men wear two, southern men where one, for reasons i do not know, i wear two

Why do some grass dancers sometimes wear plumed antennas in their roaches?

because they sway more easier than feathers just the way a grass dancers is supposed to dance. smooth.

Why did/do some northern traditonal dancers wear retangular porcupine-quilled hairplates on the back of their roaches.

i dont wear those, i dont know what those are

Why did/do some northern traditional dancers wear shaved feathers blended in with their front porky hair?

because they think with those, they will win

Who started wearing today's eagle tail visors under the roach?

i dont know but what i learned is that underneath a tail of an eagle is the a-hole, does that make the dancers face an a-hole

* my answers are just for fun, if i offended anyone i apologize, for the person who made these questions, good job, me i like to wonder, who really needs to know everything. to find out more visit your local library or ask local elders. *smiles* if you have any questions email me at
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Old 11-13-2004, 04:52 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eutrinka
I would like to add a few questions if I may. Ok, what do you prefer buying your roach made or making it yourself? Which do you prefer, porky or horse hair. And also German silver, bone, rawhide, or a mocc sole style leather for a roach spreader?


And I have a tribal question... how far down does the Lakota roach lay?
Those are my questions.

Thanks,
Eutrinka
i am going to get my roach asap and i dont it seems hard to make a roach so i want to have someone that is or is considered family make my roach i dont believe in buying them though other than buying supplies. also to answer someone elses (cant remember the users name) question the reason you see some grass dancers wear plume feathers on antenas is those are the grass dance spreaders and so its a piece of the grass dance regalai but its not that populer anymore

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Old 02-05-2005, 12:49 AM   #34
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roaches/wopegneka

Well the way i have been told about roaches is that they were originally badges of honor in the northern tribes warrior societies that slowly migrated through the plains and was widely accepted by the hethushka, elonshkas, and so on. i have heard an osage legend that the red deer hair represents the blood of battle while the black porky hair represents the smoke of a coucil fire and the blonde tips represents the fallen commrades in arms.

As for the Wopegneka which i'm pretty sure that is the correct spelling, originated with the siouian tribes as a sign of completing the sundance ceremony (please correct me if i'm wrong on such a subject as this) i have widely heard this from sioux men and have been told it the further north i get. But the sources i have recieved this info has been constant and adequate.

As for the visors, visors were created in oklahoma in about the mid 60's to 70's, i have heard many elders tell me that when a warrior dances it is cowardous to not look one another in the eyes , that it is a sign of disrespect, and that visors were created to keep the sun out of your eyes to prevent from wearing tacky sunglasses, and thus offending others.

As for roach feathers i have heard that a traditional dancers 2 feathers represent the 2 eagles hunting , and have also heard that it represents 2 warriors fighting in battle.


--------------------------------------------------------
these are things that i have been told, and if i have these things wrong please correct me i'm only 17
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Old 03-18-2005, 03:05 PM   #35
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Concerning the Hair Roach Headdress, I have heard the following:

The Hair Roach Headdress is apparently called "roach" in English because of it’s resemblance to the "roaching" or clipping of a horse’s mane which was considered stylish in the 19th century. The roach headdress of animal hair almost certainly originated in the custom, formerly observed by some Indian men, of cutting all the hair from the head except for a narrow strip running from the crown to the base of the neck. A painting of the Ponca warrior Hongs-kay-dee or “Great Chief” done by George Catlin in 1832 shows this hair style.

Later, animal hair such as porcupine guard hair, deer-tail hair and wild turkey beard were added to the dancers hair to add to the effect, an eventually evolved to be a separate Headdress piece.

Some authorities attribute the Hair Roach Headdress to the Pawnee as a result of the legend of one of their culture heros "Crow Feather," however the Hair Roach Headdress can be found in many other traditions throughout the Great Lakes, Prairie and Plains tribes.

Today the Hair Roach Headdress is either made from turkey beard, in which case the length of the base is usually a smaller size, perhaps 8 to 12 inches, or porcupine guard hair which can have a base from 12 to 20 inches or more. In both cases, deer-tail hair is added inside and out.

There was a time that the deer-tail hair was dyed red to indicated that the wearer had been “tested by fire” or in other words the dancer was a warrior or veteran who had been in combat, and if the deer-tail hair was left natural or white the dancer had not been in combat. However, these meanings are no longer strictly followed or remembered and the deer-tail hair is frequently dyed any color according to the dancer’s preference.

In general the southern plains style of Hair Roach Headdress will have the front hairs standing erect with only a gradual outward flare, whereas in contrast, the northern plains style Hair Roach Headdress worn by dancers will have the front hairs flaring outward at an almost horizontal angle. For what reason, I can not be sure.
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Old 03-18-2005, 04:36 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebooneyboy
...As for the Wopegneka which i'm pretty sure that is the correct spelling, originated with the siouian tribes as a sign of completing the sundance ceremony (please correct me if i'm wrong on such a subject as this) i have widely heard this from sioux men and have been told it the further north i get. But the sources i have recieved this info has been constant and adequate...
Concerning the Lakota Tasinta Wapegnaka, my research has shown that this was a hair ornament originally worn by certain officers or men with positions of authority, sometimes referred to as "Whipmen," because they carried a horse quirt or whip as a symbol of their position and authority within their particular warrior society, such as the Strong Heart or Brave Heart Society, the Bare-Lance Owners Society, or the Badger Society. The Tasinta or Bull Tail hair ornament, as it is commonly called, would be worn at the back of the head and have two golden eagle tail feathers standing upright above the porcupine quilled rectangle piece in a "V" formation, with the Buffalo Bull Tail hanging beneath. (see photo below)
Attached Thumbnails
bull_tail1.jpg  
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Old 05-06-2005, 02:33 PM   #37
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Turkey Beard Roaches

I am wondering if anyone has an idea on how many turkey beards (approximately) it takes to build a 10-12 inch roach. Thanks for any help.
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Old 05-07-2005, 10:56 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryalbright
I am wondering if anyone has an idea on how many turkey beards (approximately) it takes to build a 10-12 inch roach. Thanks for any help.
The rule of thumb I have been exposed to, especially when I had a turkey beard roach made for me, is that you need one turkey beard for every inch of length in the completed roach. Want a 10 inch roach, then you need 10 turkey beards. You may be able to get by with less, but this is the norm, so I am told.
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Old 05-09-2005, 10:12 AM   #39
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Term

Historian you are right about the term "Roach" coming from the English. The term was used to descirbe the way the Eastern Tribes hair appeared to look to the English as early as the 16th Century.

Upon first seeing the Natives from a distance, the English could not tell that the hair was a headress. They soon discoverd that is was not the real hair of the Natives. But the term was used then to describe the headress and has been used for over 400 years.

The "Roach" orginated with the Eastern Tribes being made of all kinds of animal hair (as mentioned before on this thread). English writers mentioned that it was made of everything from Deer to Porcupine to Skunk to Beaver and more. The most common was Turkey Beard, Deer, and Porcupine.

As far as meaning of the number of feathers used, that various greatly from Tribe to Tribe. A very good friend of mine is Yakima/Nez Perce and he told me that one represents him and the other his mate. But yet another friend who is Blackfoot/Sioux told me that one represents him and the other his enemy. And I have also heard the other meanings mentioned here on this thread.
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Old 05-13-2005, 03:12 AM   #40
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Anyone seen or talked to PB49 lately. I'm trying to get intouch with him for info about a turkey beard roach. I now have the beards and am ready to start to tie it.

Thanks.

I believe that Shawnee, Seneca, Lenape, some Cherokees and eastcoast tribes used the roach. I think that the Osages used the roach to ornament their hair that was left on their head. This has been done since the start of time( or at least since the boat people came to the americas. I was told in school that this is the same.)
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