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Old 12-07-2005, 05:11 PM   #41
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Yep, Cherokee men would sometimes wear a small porky roach on the back of their heads.
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Old 12-13-2005, 02:45 PM   #42
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Question

A question about Northern Traditional dancers. . .


If a roach is multicolored, has the deerhair in front cut in layers or includes a small crown in front can it still be considered .... "Traditional?"


If the person who wears it, also wears flourescent colors, paints their face like a WWF wrestler and runs when they dance... are they still "Traditional" dancers?
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Old 12-13-2005, 11:30 PM   #43
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lots of questions Whew!!! hehe
our traditionial head gear is the Gustewe birch bark band leather skull cap plumes later stamped silver bands and silk the.amount of feathers worn denoted what tribe you were ....we also well before boat people wore deer and turkey beard roaches small curcular ones.. i asked dad once when i was younger about quill work "..we were using quills forever, i think it was just a little after the rocks and stones cooled."..Thanks dad...go back to sleep...we .wore very few feathers in the REAL WOODS hunting ..our people chased and cought game on foot .I am not an historian or speak for any nation just passing along what i do know i hope i have helped or at least humored you a little..Oh one more item i dont know who started the visor thing but since i been in Texas i noticed a lot of dancers here wear them...ya gotta admit thier better than raybans in out door dances..onen
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Old 12-14-2005, 02:23 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleclaninc
.....Oh one more item i dont know who started the visor thing but since i been in Texas i noticed a lot of dancers here wear them...
Turtleci,

I gave my answer to this question in one of the earlier posts. Others have said they think the visor came about earlier than to whom I give credit for. Hopefully someone will come up with a name to give credit for this modern invention.

Back to my questions.

If something is invented, then implemented recently, can it still be called....


"?????TRADITIONAL??????"
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Old 12-16-2005, 01:22 AM   #45
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Whome, its all opinion. I would say yes, as long as the dance remains the same then it is traditional, but many would disagree with me. It all depends on how you were taught. Some would say that it should be done exactly as it was in the old days, but my personal opinion is that times change and dancing changes with it. I think it is still traditional as long as the dance stays the same and the dancer knows the history of the dance.
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Old 12-16-2005, 03:54 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Turtleci,

I gave my answer to this question in one of the earlier posts. Others have said they think the visor came about earlier than to whom I give credit for. Hopefully someone will come up with a name to give credit for this modern invention.

Back to my questions.

If something is invented, then implemented recently, can it still be called....


"?????TRADITIONAL??????"
i don't know if anyone could answer that particular question and be right or wrong..lets look at it closer..when did spandex and gym shorts become the tradish for male dancers? what the hecks wrong with our true loin cloths? nothing cept socities concepts. before beads we all used porky and bird quills. remember when CD'Roms were intoduced. Bam skins were using them for bustle centers. i feel it in my heart if the old ones had access to the materials of now they would do as we are. indian people are the most inovated and artistic people on the earth...we look at things throuh nature, ect...and just as the old days we trade.we all have differt helpers protectors we use on our regalias I carried a M-60 machine Gun in the Army i used the spent shell casings on my bandoliers insted of hairpipes am A wrong? don't know but many dancers have liked them. we are all differnt but the same. as long as were not imulating a old style then feel its ok to personnize ....just my humblist older farts opinion...out of respect... Onen
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Old 12-21-2005, 11:44 PM   #47
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I don't recall the order of the questions, so I'll just ramble on.

I bought a roach as a skinny kid in Pine Ridge, SD, in 1950. I still have it, a 10" one, and I still don't know what the all-hair base is made of. Looks like it might be white pony mane or calf tail, very soft and fine. It is the only roach I have that actually pops open and closed, because the circular area around the top-braid hole is cupped, about 5/8" deep. The Lakota roaches that I remember on traditional dancers had the hair stand up fairly vertically for about 2/3 the length, and then there was a slight flair outward.

Dennis "Hawkeye" Hawkins of Meeker, now passed away, made my turkey beard roach and he put an all-hair base on it. He said that the Oklahoma way to figure where a roach was worn, was to put the heel of your palm in the depression at the top of your nose and wrap the palm toward the top of your head. Where the tip of the middle finger stops and is centered, that is where the braid hole should be. I don't know where he heard that one, but it works for me.

Turkey beard behaves pretty well, but one time I was wearing my roach in humid North Carolina at a summer dance, and I sweated into it quite a bit. It soon dipped downward, so that the beards were not only horizontal but the tips drooped. I'm sure I was quite a sight, and my wife told me, "You have a naughty roach!"

I agree with the English origin of the word, "roach". As a horseman and retired horseshoer, I can say that some folks still do roach the manes of their horses. In fact, the three gaited American Saddlebred horse cannot be shown in the show ring unless the mane is roached (trimmed off).

One or two feathers? I don't have a good answer as to why, but I have been told that the single feather is a dancer, just as you are a dancer, and if you are a good, active dancer, the feather will be the same.

The spreader. It has been said earlier that it is not really a spreader. I have heard some old timers refer to it as a "bone", a roach bone. Weren't some of them made of scapulas? Some were made of elk horn. I have one that I purchased at an antique show, and I believe it is made of "Ivorene", an early 1900's manufactured material. This latter one I use a lot; it has the old time shape, getting wider on the end and terminating in five triangular "tines". The three central ones have incised lines with the shape of spear heads, and the lines have a red color. There are "bleeding heart" openwork designs on the central portion. I make my own socket swivels, so that the feather can twirl.

So that brings up the question dealt with earlier, and I paraphrase, if it is made of Ivorene, is it still traditional? I say yes for this item. It's a judgement call. I'm fairly certain that this "bone" was made by a traditional man, and the overall shape and workmanship is excellent. On that same subject, I have made for traditional Northern dancers, steel feather sockets mounted on painted rawhide. I cut the sockets from galvanized electrical conduit tubing and scalloped the tops of them by filing. I made the swivels of steel, and the portions entering the quill were of forged, tapered, low carbon steel. I painted the sockets an off-white color. All the while, I did not feel that what was being done was non-traditional. It may have been "progressive", but nowadays, we must ask ourselves, "Does it work?"

For straight dance, I prefer "bone" to German silver, but I use both.

For colors, when I started dancing, most roach deer tail on the outside was red or white. There were other colors, but red and white predominated.

I have not seen a turkey beard roach that had any color but red deer tail.

Last edited by Gledanh Zhinga; 06-19-2006 at 10:16 PM.. Reason: grammar
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Old 05-18-2006, 11:22 PM   #48
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Wow. I love all the information here.
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Old 09-04-2006, 10:23 PM   #49
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In the Southeast, the Chickasaw were known for their "roach" haircut. The men wore their hair long, and when the went to war, shaved the sides of their head and greased the remaining hair to stand straight up. Many painted the shaved portion red, though im not sure what the signifigance of this was( maybe as a "power color") This is what i know from my elders.
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Old 09-04-2006, 11:26 PM   #50
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Two thumbs up for Issy Umschied. My roach came from him many years ago (I think its been 15 years now.) I dont know if he still has the same person making them, but he sure did have some good ones back in the day. I wish I could go back in time and buy a few more for the price of the one I bought back then....
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Old 01-05-2007, 02:47 PM   #51
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I once commented to a friend that the bright neon pink she was using was not traditional (like, 15 years ago), our grandfathers had nothing like that color. Her response was quite profound, I think. She looked at me and said "Our Grandfathers used everything they could get their hands on. The traditional way is that nothing goes to waste."
I think this is true. If it is your calling to dance in the traditional way, then it doesn't matter what colors you choose as long as you embrace the WAY.
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Old 01-24-2007, 07:37 AM   #52
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The word "traditional" means different things to different people.

In my understanding, the "Modern Traditional" dance style is a combination of what was and what is.
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Old 01-24-2007, 10:03 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Historian View Post
The word "traditional" means different things to different people.

In my understanding, the "Modern Traditional" dance style is a combination of what was and what is.

Historian,

My definition of modern traditional means:

"whatever will get ya' noticed to win a contest" *L

My friend and I were just talking about the evolution of womens crowns. I told him that they began as headbands changed shape to include small rosettes, then larger and different patterns until they evolved into the foot-high princess crown seen in the cloth dance thread!

Roaches with crowns - worn by the modern traditional dancers - will also have an evolution.

Just wait and see.
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Old 01-24-2007, 10:18 AM   #54
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...not to mention what happened to the Northern Traditional bustle. I realize this is a thread about roaches, but I've seen NT bustles so large and heavy, that the dancers removed them occasionally and hung them on custom made "hall trees" that they bring with them.

We went through a period in the 1940's 50's and 60's where large feather roaches were popular. Could happen again. Who knows?

Last edited by Gledanh Zhinga; 02-01-2007 at 07:57 PM.. Reason: added 60's
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Old 02-01-2007, 10:34 AM   #55
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Whome, its all opinion. I would say yes, as long as the dance remains the same then it is traditional, but many would disagree with me. It all depends on how you were taught. Some would say that it should be done exactly as it was in the old days, but my personal opinion is that times change and dancing changes with it. I think it is still traditional as long as the dance stays the same and the dancer knows the history of the dance.
Ah, but who's history and starting from when and where?
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Old 02-01-2007, 10:36 AM   #56
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what the hecks wrong with our true loin cloths?
you know, they just don't support as well as a good boxer brief or sport short.
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:56 AM   #57
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Who started wearing today's eagle tail visors under the roach?
ya....where did visors come from? lots of dancer wear them. i know someone who has paint turkey feather for visor. but ya. were does it come from?
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Old 06-12-2007, 11:57 PM   #58
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I cannot answer any of the ? that started this thread but I do know that different tribes wear the roach in different ways. Some tribes are to wear the roach right up top as for the cherokee and others thought the roach is supposed to be worn 1cm above hairline. As for the makings of them mine is Black horse hair and White deere tail hair on the outside and a black and white turkey feather that unlike most is TIED into the top so that they can either lay flat back, forward, right, left, right and left, or straight up. Makes it nice movement while dancing. But if you really would like for some main ?'s answered I can ask the guy that had mine. Just PM me with specifics and ill get back to you with answers asap.
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Old 06-13-2007, 02:45 PM   #59
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...the roach is supposed to be worn 1cm above hairline. As for the makings of them mine is Black horse hair and White deere tail hair on the outside and a black and white turkey feather that unlike most is TIED into the top so that they can either lay flat back, forward, right, left, right and left, or straight up. Makes it nice movement while dancing...

Adopted Cheyenne, I have one question for ya?


"What the????"
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Old 06-13-2007, 04:54 PM   #60
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Adopted because my true family's blood is cherokee but my mom was adopted my other grandma who is cheyenne, so I am an adopted cheyenne.
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