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Old 06-14-2007, 12:56 AM   #61
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"What the????"
Hey WhoME...

He might be related to you!!!
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:57 AM   #62
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Joe's D,


Either that...



or the horse I rode in on.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:10 PM   #63
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Dose any one know a good place to buy a roach spreader? what i use right now is a cd with eagle bone for sockets, dose any one know a good website to find good spreaders at?
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Old 04-07-2008, 12:08 PM   #64
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Well we know from paintings from the early to mid 1800s that my tribe the Choctaws wore roaches. The most famous painting if by George Catlin.
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:25 PM   #65
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Well we know from paintings from the early to mid 1800s that my tribe the Choctaws wore roaches. The most famous painting if by George Catlin.

George Catlin's painting were inaccurate.

A Mississippi Choctaw historian who now lives among the Oklahoma Choctaw uses George Catlin's painting inaccuracies in his lectures to prove how history is misinterpreted.
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Old 04-08-2008, 03:53 PM   #66
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George Catlin's painting were inaccurate.

A Mississippi Choctaw historian who now lives among the Oklahoma Choctaw uses George Catlin's painting inaccuracies in his lectures to prove how history is misinterpreted.
Well I didn't know that sorry about that. I'll have to do more research. Does this historian have a website? I'd be interested in reading some of his stuff.
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Old 04-08-2008, 06:17 PM   #67
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Well I didn't know that sorry about that. I'll have to do more research. Does this historian have a website? I'd be interested in reading some of his stuff.
Chata,

Halito!

I pm'ed you his contact information at the Choctaw Nation.
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Old 04-08-2008, 08:52 PM   #68
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Talking antennea

First of all Great thread.

As to the ? about grass dancers and antennea instead of feathers....I can only say what I've been told and have observed. I stated dancing grass in the early 80's and at that time I only recall seeing feathers on grass dance roaches ocasionaly. For the most part we wore "Rocker springs" with fluffs attached to them. Grass dancers were judged as much on outfit movement as footwork. If you couldn't move your outfit; all the fancy steps in the world couldn't help you win. Grass dancing was more finess and less "power" moves. Let's just say it. We were "cocky".... I digress. When Body taught me how to develope "my" style; I asked him about the springs. He said it was a way to get more movement from your outfit. Grass dancers use a lot of head movement; usualy with the beat of the drum. Also, it was another way to set oyselve apart from Tradish and bustle dancers. On another side note I often saw grass dancers "dance thr drum" and touch the head with their antennea. It was done to show respect and appreciation for a good song. Usually the dancer made a donation to the drum afterwords. I don't know who wore them first. Thanks for reading and if I'm wrong please tell me. As I said I can only say what I was told and what I observed.
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:52 AM   #69
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We must remember what the term "roach" actually means. It is a European word that has many meanings one of which is "to cut the hair so that it stands upright."

The early Europeans noticed that the Eastern Tribes had this type of hair cut and that they also wore a headdress that had hair that stood upright. They called it a "roach" when referring to the type of hair cut and also the actual headdress. Some Europeans even use the term “crest” when referring to the hair cut.

Now the Eastern Tribes had an extreme wide range of the hair cut and the wearing of “roach headdresses.” It could be on the top of the head, farther back on the crown, and even very low and practically at the back of the head.

These “roach headdresses” could be made of many things including porcupine and deer hair has we know them today but often they were made of any kind of animal hair including the most prestigious ones made of Turkey Beard Hair.

Some very nice ones in the Great Lakes Regions were even made of Badger Hair.

But hair was not the only kind of roaches – there were also roaches made of feathers from various birds. By the time of the F&I War many of the North East Tribes fancied “roaches” made of rooster feathers dyed bright vermillion red that they obtained from White Traders.

Roaches were common all across the Eastern Woodland Culture Area including the South. But they were more common among the North East than the South East.

About exactly how they are worn: well that depends on many things – the most obvious is how the hair was cut and where the warrior left his scalp lock not where his hair line was! Because if the warrior cut all but a scalp lock near the crown of his head then there is no hair line.

Many early explorers noted that how the hair was cut often depended on the use of the warrior’s bow – as not all tribes shaved the whole head. Many only shaved parts of the head in various ways.

Example: the hair was cut or shaven on the side of the head that coincided with whether the warrior was right or left handed to keep the hair from getting caught in the bow string.
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Old 04-10-2008, 07:53 AM   #70
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This is a long, good thread! One more little item. A supposedly knowledegable Hochunk man told me that in their Brave Heart Society, the men wore the roach toward the back of the head.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:45 PM   #71
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Old 01-20-2010, 03:12 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gledanh Zhinga View Post
This is a long, good thread! One more little item. A supposedly knowledegable Hochunk man told me that in their Brave Heart Society, the men wore the roach toward the back of the head.
Individuals in other tribes had a similar practice. For example:

Big Mouth Hawk – Arapaho – 1872
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Old 01-20-2010, 03:13 PM   #73
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roaches?
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:31 PM   #74
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i am interested in finding out how the classic Sioux roach came to be. For some reason, I think their migration had a lot to do with it.

I have some friends on the east coast claiming that the roach originated there. This may have some historical merit. I witnessed two Souian speakers from two completely different areas speak and understand one another. Both were elders. One was from the east coast (Catawba) and one was from Nebraska (Santee Dakota).

Interesting huh?
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:44 PM   #75
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WhoMe, that is interesting. What's your opinion as to which direction the language migrated?

On a different note, I'm getting ready to order a 22" roach with 9" hair for my son. Yep, headed back to the guy who made your and my roaches. lol
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:46 PM   #76
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Quote:
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I have some friends on the east coast claiming that the roach originated there. This may have some historical merit. I witnessed two Souian speakers from two completely different areas speak and understand one another. Both were elders. One was from the east coast (Catawba) and one was from Nebraska (Santee Dakota).

Interesting huh?

gotta comment on this, they are not mutually intelligeable, meaning they couldn't understand what each other was saying. BUT, what probably happened is that their are similarities of certian words which they could understand. for example:

the word for water in:

crow wiri
lakota mni
hochunk ni
osage ni
Biloxi ani
tutelo mani

notice the similarities with the final syllable with the consonant and final vowel.

so, they probably said things that were similar and they picked them up and filled in the rest.
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:53 PM   #77
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Iowa_Boy, the distance between these tribes has some distance, longitudally (sp). The distance between the Santee Sioux and the Cawtaba is roughly 1800 miles, latitudally.

I'm wondering if there is any other tribes on the latitude line between the Santee and Cawtaba that speak the Siouan language?
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:01 PM   #78
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I gotta get beadwork done, anybody wanting to my 2 cents, just drop me a pm sometime.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:00 PM   #79
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gotta comment on this, they are not mutually intelligeable, meaning they couldn't understand what each other was saying. BUT, what probably happened is that their are similarities of certian words which they could understand.

Iowa,

Maybe so, maybe no. They spend the better part of the afternoon conversing and exchanging how they said words and phrases. I would argue that there were certain phrases that did not need explanation because they were indeed understood.

Unless one had a working knowledge of multiple words and phrases in both dialects could an actual determination occur.

Indeed many languages based on Latin can be understood such as Spanish and Italian. So why couldn't Souian?
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Old 01-22-2010, 09:49 AM   #80
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Well guys I am not sure about this and roaches but just from what I know of my wife tribal language (and various dialects of it are spreader from Russia to Greenland) dialects that are next to each other can understand one another. Now the farther they moved the more varied the langauage became, but there were always parts that were similar enough to understand. Look at Italian and English...I can't speak italian but I can read the label on the italian beers I occassionally drink and understand most of it. The human brainj is geared to seek out an understanding of language. It is a large part of what has brought us to the point we are today.

Historian - prior to say the turn of the century it is hard to find much evidence of roaches being worn on the top of the head the way they are these days. Based on paintings, photo's and written accounts the change to the modern version of how it is worn seem to take place in the late 19th to early 20th century. Due to this new way of wearing the roach the prefered size of the roaches being worn also seems to grow larger. One is hard pressed to find any sign of roaches long than about 10" back in the 1800s. One would also have difficult time find many examples of porky hair. From what I have seen the earlier the roach the better the chances are that it is made of turkey beard.
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PB49

"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift...that is why is it called the Present." Master Oogway - KungFu Panda


My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.
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