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Old 01-19-2004, 01:13 PM   #41
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On this young fellow ccrock dancing anywhere... Around here powows are open events. They are advertized in the paper. Homecomings are just big powows but really do not need invitations. But, if I am not at home I am a VISITOR. That is a special postion or role. There are rules of hospitality, ancient rules that go with keeping a camp. Maybe thats not so everywhere but here its a big deal. Greeting, feeding and giving to visitors is as important or more important than anything happening in the circle. Powows aren't for dancing, there for visiting. any way, as a visitor I am on my best behavior, I represent my family and tribe. when I was young I did not always do that,ayy, but i was supposed to. I don't dance "anywhere" and I'm Indian. There are places that require an invitation, or have a special place for visitors or your just there to eat and talk and look on. But if invited, it does not matter who you are, you have a place. Treating visitors right isn't giving up you culture it IS your culture.
They say this way is a hard way, this is what they mean. You have to be better than those who would hassle you. Here they say "WashkoN," do your best!!!
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Old 01-19-2004, 06:35 PM   #42
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C rock 77-

Man you gotta lay off attacking the real indians. Yeah, you MIGHT be a good dancer, but you gotta remember that THEY ARE NATIVE and THESE ARE THEIR WAYS that YOU ARE BORROWING, if you can even call it that. Just your behavior and your rudeness shows everyone that even if you dance, you certainly aren't following the Indian way. You should wisen up and be more respectful to the real Native and to you elders.
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Old 01-19-2004, 07:36 PM   #43
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I apologize if I've come off as rude. I just think it's really rude for people to question me and information I give just on the basis that I'm white. I've been dancing and powwowing for quite some time, now. I know that I haven't been doing this as long as a large percentage of NDN people, but I've been doing it a while. I take pride on dong "research", including talking to dancers and other knowledgeable people about these ways. I don't do things just because I've seen them once. I look into things before doing them to make sure I'm doing the right things. That's why I got defensive. I apologize for coming off like an ***. I'm really not one. My cage got rattled, so I barked. I apologize.

As for jumping back at people for judging me and my advice solely on the fact that I'm white, and not on its merits, I'm not going to apologize for that because I feel it's wrong. It's a racist comment, plain and simple. How would you feel if I came on here and called every one of you Indian people drunks, bums, and alcoholics? Sure, NDN people have their share of those, as do all races. But it is the stereotype that a lot of non-Indians have toward Indian people. Do I come on here and make racist remarks? No. I only ask the same courtesy in return. I don't believe that's too much to ask.
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Old 01-19-2004, 08:02 PM   #44
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I am white too!!!!!!!! If you look in the forums under powwow talk, and click on "White People Dancing" you'll see that I say that and more. I am trying to be respectful towards the culture and trying to learn. I've made mistake in the dance circle, and I have paid for them by either actually paying for them or for being shamed by my peers. Either way, you gotta learn to be as respectful as you can towards Indians as this is their culture and we are simply onlookers. Simple as that

Toksa Ake
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Old 01-28-2004, 03:23 AM   #45
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I like to thank all of the "skins/ndns" for their invaluable information and suggestions. I just took a break from the beadwork to check on the posts...and to my surprise! I could have a whole lot to say with regards to the eventual topic, "crock's comments"....but my focus is my son. For an update the beauty of our culture showed itself through a trade for a bussel, roach, and (your right) an unending flow of advice from my "relations". The outfit is surely on a fast forward. The one piece of advice that has repeated itself throughout the posts and my relations is to just get my son out there....once he was introduced to the circle, the pow wow, the social gathering...he has a place he will fill,be it,competition or just to enjoy the event.
Specifically to Crock: I thank you kindly for your attempt at educating this "ignorant" woman about her ways, but I must say if you respected these ways then you would understand the importance of what was said in the posts and leave it with a teaching for the your own betterment. I respect our white relations who understand that our children our first and foremost and that is why those teachings need to stay strong and clear within our families. I could say alot more on this subject but it has been said in great ways throughout the posts. Pinamaya.
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Old 01-28-2004, 06:33 AM   #46
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For some reason, it seems to me that you take the word "ignorant" as an insult.... If that's true, you take it in the wrong way. You asked for help, you said yourself you needed help and didn't have the knowledge, yourself to put together dance clothes for your son. You wanted help. I, in the spirit of friendship, offered it. What happens? I get jumped on for trying to give help to someone who asks for it.

As for respecting these ways, I do. I apologize, but I get quite defensive when people attempt to lump me in with a lot of other white "dancers" and wannabes (a.k.a. the "Tandy" and "roadkill" freaks)--the same people that will go to a dance and tell other people that their ways are wrong just b/c they're different from the way I learned.

In the future, have enough respect for someone who is SINCERELY trying to help you to not question them or their advice solely on the basis that they're not a "Skin" or "NDN." Just like there are NDN people that don't know about these ways, there are white people that are quite knowledgeable. So, race is not a reason to accept OR question advice given. I'm not an expert, but I have SOME knowledge in these ways. You asked for whatever help could be offered.

So, yes, it's a sore spot that my advice was questioned not on its merits, but only on the basis that I was white. If you disagree with what I say, we can have a discussion on it. Don't just say that I can't be right b/c I'm white. That's the dumbest argument anyone can pose.

I'm happy to hear that your son's outfit is well on the road to being completed. I'd love to see some pictures. After all, that's all I was attempting to help you with.
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Old 01-28-2004, 08:32 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by wolfdream
I like to thank all of the "skins/ndns" for their invaluable information and suggestions. I just took a break from the beadwork to check on the posts...and to my surprise! I could have a whole lot to say with regards to the eventual topic, "crock's comments"....but my focus is my son. For an update the beauty of our culture showed itself through a trade for a bussel, roach, and (your right) an unending flow of advice from my "relations". The outfit is surely on a fast forward. The one piece of advice that has repeated itself throughout the posts and my relations is to just get my son out there....once he was introduced to the circle, the pow wow, the social gathering...he has a place he will fill,be it,competition or just to enjoy the event.
Pinamaya.
Isn't it great? We can count on our own people to help us when help is needed. Someday, I may be dancing in the same arena as your son.:)
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Old 02-05-2004, 01:19 AM   #48
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Question

I just found this post for the first time tonight. Wolfdream asked a valid question. Crock answered. The course then made a hard left hand turn. That we are all five fingered beings- isn't being disputed. What is being found offensive is that Crocks responses were starting to sound "preachy", as though he was the only source of information that existed. I've seen the book. Some good pics, some good info.--BUT I've seen many hobbyists and Scout groups tote it around like a bible, with dog eared pages, making references to both it and "Black Elk Speaks". THIS is where the contention comes in. This is where the problems begin to arise. Crock how long are you going to drag this dead a** dog through the dirt? In almost every post you state--"I did this for friendship"--"I get defensive when people lump me with others"--"Why is it important if I'm white and not NDN?". Several times you state you are a student of Native ways and traditions. What must those men that taught you be thinking right now? It's truly not important that you're white. What is important is the manner in which you convey your information. Trying to justify your comments and actions, then make it seem as though a grave injustice was done to you---THAT is where Natives take offense. Sorry dude, time to climb off your pity pot. You make it sound like you're the victim. You use flowery words, then insult the lady that you claim to be helping. Ironic isn't it?? The truly sad part is that you'll not see any life lesson in this entire scenario. You'll more than likely take offense to this post as well. All that I can do is keep you in my prayers at Lodge, and hope that Grandfather helps to soften your heart and words and brings you peace of mind.
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Old 02-10-2004, 01:07 AM   #49
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Ok.....

WHERE did I INSULT the woman asking for help?

I never said Scott Evans' book was THE end-all be-all source for Traditional Dancing. It is, however, one of the best single sources of information for anyone who's a beginner. I haven't seen or heard of any information being "wrong" in the book. No, it's not going to tell you EVERYTHING you need to know, but very few things will. A lot of people like to have a reference they can go to to answer questions. It's a good example of one of those sources. I've seen the idiots that tote it around like it's the bible, too. These are the same people that fall all over themselves if they meet John Butler (guy on the cover). Yeah, they're usually (about 90% of the time) Scouters.
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Old 02-10-2004, 02:56 PM   #50
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To begin I am a white woman. I have never tried to pass myself of as native. I however am raising an aboriginal son (his dad is ojibwe) who is beginning to dance. In helping him with his regalia I have turned to the people in the local community as I do not posses in my opinion the right to bestow advice about dancing or the teachings behind it upon my son. To me this is a gift that has been given to him and one that I only participate in as a spectator, semstress, bank and proud mother. I volinteer endless hours to his community and am privliged to do so as it is a way of giving to a community who has given to my son. I however have never misunderstood my place and am honoured to just be there watching as my son embarks upon a journey that is soley his own. I guess that the point that I am trying to make is that as white people we are only privledged spectators and we should remember that. We don't have the right to give advice or direction when it comes to culture because these are teachings that require spirit, heart and pride that can only be provided by one who has been given the gift of those teachings.

My intention of this post was to ask a question so I guess I should get on it. It is to C-Rock the fellow who was raising such a stink. When you go to pow wows do you just dance intertribal or do you dance specific traditional dances. I ask cuz where I live, the only dances that white people participate in are intertribal dances, some honour dances and other social dances but I have never for example seen a white person taking part specifically in the sneakup or crow hop etc.

To the woman who is working on her sons regalia good luck to you both.

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Old 02-10-2004, 03:04 PM   #51
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The dances I attend and at which I dance are Intertribal dances...i.e. the ones of the social kind.

I have danced at one formal war dance, but that was only after being invited to do so--at that dance, I didn't even have any dance clothes. The members there dressed me (in Straight Dance clothes) and sat me with the guests of the dance.

Oh, BTW CrazyDazy, I appreciate the courtesy of actually putting the effort forward to actually type my Screenname right, and not calling me "Crock" or the other things.... That's getting pretty old....

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Old 02-10-2004, 03:07 PM   #52
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I guess I don't know how things work down there but would you for instance dance at a competition pow wow or a traditional pow wow when the mc or arena director announce all male traditional dancers get ready? or do you only dance when the director announces intertribal everybody dance?

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Old 02-12-2004, 10:37 AM   #53
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Were im from down here in south texas. When i go to only social dances unless im invited to attend another dance. But im a member of the Gulf Coast Tia Piah. I've danced sneakups and i think the drum did a chicken dance on us that no one danced right.
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Old 02-12-2004, 10:43 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by boman19
Were im from down here in south texas. When i go to only social dances unless im invited to attend another dance. But im a member of the Gulf Coast Tia Piah. I've danced sneakups and i think the drum did a chicken dance on us that no one danced right.
I am sorry, I guess I should have stated that teh question was to c-rock. I have only been to pow wows in the north and have been to two type, traditional, and competition. I have never seen at either non natives dancing in full regalia during any dance except for the odd intertribal dance that the mc calls. Not that my opinion counts but I think that that is the way it should be I don't think that non natives have a place in the circle during specific dances. that is what intertribals are for.
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:17 PM   #55
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Well like I said I only dance in open dances, and only compete in open comps. The way I see it is if a person white or indian is raised in the circle and taught by the elders. He should be welcome to dance in full regalia. But if the person is a white man he shouldn't dance the special dances unless invited. And all the dances i've danced out side the Tia-Piah i was invited to dance.
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Old 02-12-2004, 05:02 PM   #56
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Originally posted by boman19
Well like I said I only dance in open dances, and only compete in open comps. The way I see it is if a person white or indian is raised in the circle and taught by the elders. He should be welcome to dance in full regalia. But if the person is a white man he shouldn't dance the special dances unless invited. And all the dances i've danced out side the Tia-Piah i was invited to dance.
Out of curiousity, why should he be allowed to dance in full regalia? It is not as though it is a right. Just because pow wows are advertised in the news paper it doesn't mean that just anyone can come and dance. I always thought that the invitation was to come as a spectator. I guess they just do things differently up here or I just have not seen any non natives dancing at pow wows other then during the social dances. As for scouting and dancing it is strange that we don't see that up here either. I guess I always thought that you can learn something without actually doing it and sometimes not doing it is a more respectful way. I am sure that My opinion differs from many others but I culd never imagine dancing in full regalia. just like i would never pray at a mousque and wear a hejab - It's not my right. It is an honour to be present. Also given the teachings that have been given to my son on the subject, dancing is not just something to do because it looks cool. Rather it is a calling. In respect for him I will not discuss how he received this calling or message but I assure you that it was a process and a descision that was not made easily. With that I guess I wonder how non-natives find their way to the circle. Is it the same kind of true calling, is it part of a larger path, do they follow the red road in day to day life or is it something that they do on weekends and on weekdays they go back to being white? I only wonder because for many people that I know dancing is a celebration of THEIR SPIRIT, THEIR CULTURE they live it 24/7 with no days off. It is a way of showing respect to anscestors past and present, and to the spirits that guide them. By inviting outsiders I always though that was just the indian but by inviting non-natives it is also a way of showing the world that they are proud of who they are and that they will rise above the adversity that has been created for them by obsticles such as racism. So with that said how can you know what you are supposed to feel when you are in the circle unless you have lived all of the other less glamorous aspects of that life? What do you celebrate when you dance? What is it that you are showing pride in other then a completely beaded regalia? I am not trying to attack anyone here I am just curious about what the personal motivation is behind non-native dancers cuz I just don't get it!

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Old 02-12-2004, 10:45 PM   #57
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For your information, I did have a calling to dance and sing many many years ago when I was a young child. Just like your son may have had. I don't dance because I think it looks cool like some whites do. I do it for the reasons you said about having pride in the culture. I was called by my grandfather, father sky and mother earth to dance and sing and to celibrate their mysteries.
I have recently been honored by beeing invited to join and will accept there invite to join a Kiowa Veterians Society. THis gourd clan is the Gulf Coast Tia-Piah. This honor is a life time commitment that i don't take lightly.
As to dancing in full rigalia it is not right to dance anyother way. It is disrespectfull to dance in partial rigalia. To answer your question about how Non-Native Americans find their way into the Circle. They find their way by being brought in by Native Americans or they are raised in the circle as I was and still am being raised in the Circle.
Pow wows that are advertised in the papers invite spectator, as well as dancers to come socialize. Most dances are benifit dances and their only funds come the rafels and donations made at the dance.
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:13 PM   #58
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I am sorry but I thought that I had made it clear that I was asking the question of c-rock. As far as dancing in full regalia i guess things are different her then they are there becasue many people enter the circle before they have completed their regalia and for many I think that their regalia is always a work in progress alway changing. As for my questions about non natives dancing it was not directed to you but to all non-natives who dance. as for pow wows being for all dancers like I said up here it doesn't seem to be that way. I have never seen a non native dance at a pow wow unless the mc calls an intertribal. Other then that dancing is pretty much left to natives even if it is in the newspaper. Like I said it must be different up here
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Old 02-13-2004, 12:42 AM   #59
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Old 02-13-2004, 12:51 AM   #60
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