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Old 06-22-2002, 06:57 PM   #1
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Angry Tired of fixed Pow Wows *especially in New Mexico*

:Mad Im starting to notice that ALOT of people in New Mexico host fixed Pow Wows. At the state fair pow wow in albuquerque last year, the pow wow comitee posted a sign with big read letters that said "Point System enforced" and when you read the rules, it said all dancers must be on time for grand entries, dancers in specials must be 18 years of age or older, all dancers must be registered to claim prize money and must have number present. So this guy named Elton Tortalita from Santo Domingo, comes to the pow wow on the very last day, wasnt registered, competed in the team dance catagory and had some little 7 year old kid in his team, and he took first! It was straight up boloney guyz, all cuz he knew the judges. Im tired of not winning, I dance for myself and my family but at the same time the prize money is important to me. It goes to the gas tank, goes to the bills and food. I dance hard, as hard as everyone else and yet I get over looked because Im not "In" with the judges? Is it just me? Of has anyone else experienced this problem?:Mad
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Old 06-23-2002, 03:03 AM   #2
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Happens a lot - most of the places we go. We just dance our best and if we manage to hit it - Great! If not then we made the others dance harder.

That's competition pow-wow!
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Old 06-24-2002, 01:56 AM   #3
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like bruce almighty would say "and that's the way the cookie crumbles" LOL j/k

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Old 06-24-2002, 05:14 PM   #4
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Unhappy This happens in B.C too

Man I hear what your saying. I don't win either, but I love dancing and winning money at a pow wow is quite the bonus for me, but not really a big deal. But I don't think I want to win by just knowing the judges.. I'd rather win on my skill. When I placed 3rd that was my first time winning.. I was sooo happy!! I couldn't believe it! then I placed 1st.. Whoa.. U shoulda seen me behind the scenes!! Kept my cool walking up there though. This I did on my own. And I loved it. Nothing can top that! :D
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Old 10-17-2005, 08:47 PM   #5
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Do you think it is the same for tiny tots? my daughter is two and she just started and is mostly playing out there, she one a dollar like all the others but the real winner was related to the anouncer. Do you think Tiny Tot is fixed too?
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Old 10-18-2005, 11:17 AM   #6
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Tiny Tot's rigged? no

I would sure like to think that Tiny yot's are not rigged! after all the whole idea of haveing that "comp" is to let them show their stuff and if in the future they should comp for real they will be used to people in the circle Judging them when im picked to judge i get my paper act like im writing get in a huddle with the other judges and announce it was so hard cause they were all so good that they all win and in my opp they all won even the little ones being led by a loved one,having a seat I could go on and on gosh last tiny tot my then 3 yr old danced i was head-lady and he sat in the arena with his power rangers and they danced to the beat of the drum i was about to go and take the toys away and walk with him and Grandmas came from all over and told me to let that baby alone he was doing his best!!! and who am I to question the Grandma's? then after the song they brushed him off and hugged him and that evening he got somemore dollars that may seem like a bit much but they sure enjoyed him. Now as far as the Judgeing for adults ive seen it there are times if you know who is doing the judging and see the people in comp you can pretty much tell who is going to place and even what order they will place in!!! we have sat back and done that before, I was going to comp at one dance and found out my sister-in-law was a judge so i went and pulled my name from the list and the people at the desk really tried to talk me out of removing my name!!! now i know that she would of been fair but it just does not look rite and people would of found out and of course had a fit. But the people who win and know they should of not won that will follow them so are they really winners? I think not there is no honor in cheating and in my opp that is what is happening.
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:36 PM   #7
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Fixed Pow wow's

Ah yes, fixed pow-wow's, we have them here in Ontario too. My daughter is a champion dancer, but for some reason whenever she attends a couple of pow wows futher South, she never places. The last one she went to near alongthe St Clair River, she danced hard all week-end, and didn't even place. The prize money went to people from New Mexico. And yes it was supposed to be judged on the point system, but those dancers only danced in the grand entries and during their dance contest. Go figure.
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:43 PM   #8
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well.. what would you do if you knew you were dancing your best but, ya just knew that someone out there is better.... they are always better, you had never beat them... but then the committee announced the winners and there ya were... placing. ok yeah.. this happened to me... I placed when i knew i shouldnt have... then my friend's mom came up to me afterwards, and said i dont place as much as i should, so she picked me as 1st so i would get the points... i felt bad, but what could i do? should i have told the committee? given back the money? TIPPED HER?? ayes...

I have been told many times that i dont place as much as i should... and i dont know why... i dance my hardest and carry myself respectfully. I love powwowin' but cant afford to travel much... I guess my regalias could use some work, so ill get on it...

GOOD LUCK TO ALL THE UNDER DOGS OUT THERE !!!
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Old 10-25-2005, 04:06 PM   #9
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RedP,

Many of your same concerns have been posted to your topic.

Duane Harris, who runs the NM State Fair powwow, is a good friend of mine. Duane is a caring person with great values. Please talk to him and tell him your concerns. I am sure he will take your advice and apply them to next year's powwow.


"Be pro-active rather than reactive."


Good luck in the future!
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Old 10-25-2005, 07:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
RedP,

Many of your same concerns have been posted to your topic.

Duane Harris, who runs the NM State Fair powwow, is a good friend of mine. Duane is a caring person with great values. Please talk to him and tell him your concerns. I am sure he will take your advice and apply them to next year's powwow.


"Be pro-active rather than reactive."


Good luck in the future!


*cough, cough....bull****!!*

.....I've seen it too many times WhoMe. You gotta have some iota of Pue-blow blood to get in at a New Mexico powwow.

.....or be a Cozad....aye!!

GAH!!!!!!

j/k


I think it's a real problem that's not going away, and all this talk of being "proactive" is just us blowin' hot air at the organizers and judges. It's simply the way things go. I've been at enough powwows in New Mexico to know how it operates.

The winners are the winners because of their names, their reputations......often not because they're good dancers, but, because they kiss *** better than alot of us? I dunno, it's a combination of *** kissin', you out on the trail beatin' the bushes and makin' a name for yourself, or you having the pity of a few judges who'll put your number down.


........I'll contest when I have the time and I don't care who's there, I'll give it my all, but, I'll refrain from throwing my opinions around to the organizers and judges on hand. Besides, alot of times it's friends of dancers who are dancing that are doing the judging. Plus, I know a few times when you actually ask to see the tabulations, the tabulators get all up in your face about it and then start yelling for security because you're supposedly "out of line"..........huh????

OR, OR....they'll throw that whole $100 complaint fee thing at you.

I call it BS. It's someone back there cookin' the books, allowing SHODDY, BAD, MEDIOCRE dancers the win when it's the folks out there for every grand entry, every intertribal, every round dance or spectator/dancer type activity that RIGHTLY deserve the win.

I liked what the late 8 Ball Jim had to say about this....."Judge on Ability no on who you know"

Least, I think it was him.

Just my opinion, thrown around for throwin' arounds sake.


I know at a few California powwows, I've seen supposedly good dancers, well known names get the gate and walk outta there with nothing but the sh!tty attitudes they arrived with, wondering and complaining about how they're not coming back next year cause this powwow is unfair and wasn't honest about judging..........when in fact........the powwow followed (for once) the actual RULES they set forth. They REALLY used the point system, and the dancers who were out there dancing.........REALLY got to be the winners. I mean, granted you're are contesting to contest, and I know dancers that show up, go thru Grand Entry, or walk in late, get their numbers taken down, then walk off, and you don't see them until it's time to contest........no intertribal dancing, no round dancing....nothing, nada, zip........yet, they place.

I'm not saying it's cause they ain't got some mad crazy skills and they can flat out jam.............I'm saying, if they REALLY judged according to the rules they set down and hand out to dancers...........you'd see alot of people that normally DON'T place, actually placing. I think it'd only make for a better contest, it'd only make the so-called "winners" out there wake up and realize, "HEY!!! I'd better hustle my tookus out there and dance if I wanna win this thing!!"
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Old 11-08-2005, 09:15 PM   #11
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bo Jangles
*cough, cough....bull****!!*

.....I've seen it too many times WhoMe. You gotta have some iota of Pue-blow blood to get in at a New Mexico powwow.

.....or be a Cozad....aye!!

GAH!!!!!!

j/k


I think it's a real problem that's not going away, and all this talk of being "proactive" is just us blowin' hot air at the organizers and judges. It's simply the way things go. I've been at enough powwows in New Mexico to know how it operates.

The winners are the winners because of their names, their reputations......often not because they're good dancers, but, because they kiss *** better than alot of us? I dunno, it's a combination of *** kissin', you out on the trail beatin' the bushes and makin' a name for yourself, or you having the pity of a few judges who'll put your number down.


........I'll contest when I have the time and I don't care who's there, I'll give it my all, but, I'll refrain from throwing my opinions around to the organizers and judges on hand. Besides, alot of times it's friends of dancers who are dancing that are doing the judging. Plus, I know a few times when you actually ask to see the tabulations, the tabulators get all up in your face about it and then start yelling for security because you're supposedly "out of line"..........huh????

OR, OR....they'll throw that whole $100 complaint fee thing at you.

I call it BS. It's someone back there cookin' the books, allowing SHODDY, BAD, MEDIOCRE dancers the win when it's the folks out there for every grand entry, every intertribal, every round dance or spectator/dancer type activity that RIGHTLY deserve the win.

I liked what the late 8 Ball Jim had to say about this....."Judge on Ability no on who you know"

Least, I think it was him.

Just my opinion, thrown around for throwin' arounds sake.


I know at a few California powwows, I've seen supposedly good dancers, well known names get the gate and walk outta there with nothing but the sh!tty attitudes they arrived with, wondering and complaining about how they're not coming back next year cause this powwow is unfair and wasn't honest about judging..........when in fact........the powwow followed (for once) the actual RULES they set forth. They REALLY used the point system, and the dancers who were out there dancing.........REALLY got to be the winners. I mean, granted you're are contesting to contest, and I know dancers that show up, go thru Grand Entry, or walk in late, get their numbers taken down, then walk off, and you don't see them until it's time to contest........no intertribal dancing, no round dancing....nothing, nada, zip........yet, they place.

I'm not saying it's cause they ain't got some mad crazy skills and they can flat out jam.............I'm saying, if they REALLY judged according to the rules they set down and hand out to dancers...........you'd see alot of people that normally DON'T place, actually placing. I think it'd only make for a better contest, it'd only make the so-called "winners" out there wake up and realize, "HEY!!! I'd better hustle my tookus out there and dance if I wanna win this thing!!"
Dang Mr. Jo Bangles. LOL. You always cut to the point. Anywayz things seem like their going the same for you huh?

By the way this is Potawatomi_Azhe'ni
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Old 11-08-2005, 10:47 PM   #12
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Gawwwwwwww

sounds like some sore losers out there. This is exactly what I teach my son NOT to be like. Powwowing, contests, are exactly what it is. Not every thing and every one is not going to be the same all around the states or even canada. There are powwows everywhere that people will say are 'fixed' etc. But I can detest for a fact the the State Fair was not fixed cuz my lil one placed there only due to the fact he danced his *** off and no one there was related to him or me. There are dancers that won because of their ability to dance and ability to make the Grand Entries, spot checks, etc.

I used to think alot like alot of you do, really pressin on how the contests are fixed, etc. But ya know, ya just have to accept it and dance because you like too. Be proud of the fact that you danced your heart out and made an impression out there on someone. These little ones are always watching and admiring every one of you but if you show them these 'why not me' or the blame game attitudes then they will grow up the exact same ways. These kids learn from dancers and their elder peers on how to act in the arena and out.

We're suppose to be out there dancing for other reasons not money, fame, or placing. Yes, it is nice to win or place once in a while but we all know that is a chance we ALL take when we register. I know my son is not going to place everywhere. But I am teaching him to be a humble loser and not blame everyone else either. He does cry sometimes when he does not place but I just keep teaching him that its not about winning or placing every time you powwow. I am very proud of him because I know deep in my heart he is a good dancer and will be when he grows up. I tell him every day how much pride I have in him and that alone satisfies him the most.
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Old 11-10-2005, 11:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezbah
....sounds like some sore losers out there. This is exactly what I teach my son NOT to be like. .... There are powwows everywhere that people will say are 'fixed' etc. But I can detest for a fact the the State Fair was not fixed cuz my lil one placed there only due to the fact he danced his *** off and no one there was related to him or me. There are dancers that won because of their ability to dance and ability to make the Grand Entries, spot checks, etc.

I used to think alot like alot of you do, really pressin on how the contests are fixed, etc. But ya know, ya just have to accept it .....

Mr. Bo J, (dang I almost typed Bo Little Elk) *L



WELL??????
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Old 11-10-2005, 12:45 PM   #14
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having a pow wow that strictly states "drugs and alcohol are not allowed" and then having winners who indulge in this stuff is an obvious sign of a fixed pow wow....especially when they show up for the pow wow the next day with beer breath or blood shot eyes.
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Old 11-10-2005, 12:55 PM   #15
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My policy is "just dance".

If ya win, ya win. It's a bonus.

Most people say they should have judges that are dancers. Why? Why should they be dancers? Yeah, the answer is........... because they've been dancing a long time and know what to look for. That's right. Absolutely right.
But............ I've been arena director/head judge at a lotta places. The judges that I select are about 50/50 dancers and non-dancers. Most of the time, the scorecards are identical or pretty close. Whaddya make of that?

Anyways, most powwows are "not" fixed. Ya just hafta dance and accept the outcome. That's all.
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Old 11-10-2005, 04:31 PM   #16
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Sore losers huh.........speak for yourself toots!!

LMAO!


I could care less, and I do exactly what you do.....just dance. I'm never there for the contests, I don't bother contesting, but, I do think I have every right in the World to ***** about it.

It's inherent that you'll have favorites and your own cheering or JEERING section as a dance.......just human nature. We're all competitive human beings. Some of us just want it more or DON"T want it enough to bother trying or are like me......just totally happy being able to get out there and dance.

So, in a word.........NO..........I'm NOT a sore loser, never have been. Sure, I've tried, and I've been happy to see that it's the other guy that's won. I mean, I don't have time to stop when I'm dancing to see what everyone else is doin. I just get out there, do my thing....and hey....if folks like it....fine. If not..........makes no matter to me.

Took me awhile to respond here simply because I'm not on here as much as I used to be..........and simply because I said what I had to say......if you didn't like it...........that's fine. I said what I had to say..........if it moves or compels you to comment on.......fine.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.....how you take it and respond is totally up to you.

I still say there's a great deal of rigging going on. But, it's just the way of the powwow world.

I've accepted it. Hell.......I wouldn't even go so far as to say that. I mean, I know it's there.......but, I sure don't have to accept it. It shouldn't be tolerated, shouldn't exist......but, what do you expect from imperfect people, living in an imperfect World.

I don't have to accept anything, let alone tolerate it. It's when you just lie down as take it in the a$$ like so many are doing right now in the powwow world that perpetuates this kinda sh!t. Nip it in the bud where you find it, and discourage it when you can.

God had a choice when he made this World. He could have made it Round or Fair..........we all know what the end result of that choice was.

LMAO!


Speakin' of Bo. I saw his big ole' Cheyenne azz yesterday morning in Ft. Defiance cruising in his HUGE conversion van. Good to see that nut again. Course, it would have been even funnier if I had gotten a chance to talk to him.

OH well.

I heard he's headed back over to Watonga, or concho or somewhere's around there in C&A Country this weekend.........so, look out!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-10-2005, 07:44 PM   #17
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Ability?

Have you seen the way most NM powwow judges are picked, straight from the crowd or people sitting inside the arena. They, the crowd/people, could have little to no knowledge of what to judge for other than who looks best in their outfit and at times who has the best flashy and often the most comtemporary outfit. It seems that powwows aren't really a place for judging, y'know.
I've seen Fancy Shawl dacers fall flat on their butts and still take first. Ahem, Shiprock Fair.
What is this "point system" anyway. If you get two songs, contest songs, do you judge both of them as one (1+1=2) or do you throw out the lowest score(0+2=2)? What do you do? And the spectator picked as a judge do they know how the scoring is done?
Why not just pick "real" judges. A commitee of judges that really know their stuff and they could be hired like drum groups, ADs, and MCs. They would know everything from outfit styles, I seen judges overlook some dancers because their outfit happened to be more authentic and not "flashy" enough, to dance history;everything from footwork to synch, trust me I have seen some dancers that just spun and spun w/ absolutely no footwork and take first, could've just called it the Spinnin' dance category instead.
Anyways, maybe powwows need to be regulated by some sort of official board o' somethin'. The way real sports measure real ability and not popularity.
BTW-I seen dancers go off-beat real bad and some that totally end two beats prior to the "end" and still place. This was at Gatherings in ALBQ too.
Shesh I guess were just stuck with it.
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Old 11-11-2005, 12:15 PM   #18
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Mr. Bo and Tiyospaye,

By your feedback, it certainly looks like GLOOM has overshadowed the enchanted skys of New Mexico powwows.


Maybe people should quit coming to NM to powwow OR Powwows should cease to exist there altogether since it's such a downer?


Whatcha' think???
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Old 11-11-2005, 03:01 PM   #19
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good but harsh point.
we should be lucky to still have powwows and not get caught up. we learned enough bad ways from the white eye.
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Old 11-11-2005, 09:23 PM   #20
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Yes, I agree.

If you want to discourage people from visiting your area, the best way to do it is............ start rumours of all the powwows in the state as being " fixed". Post on websites, native newspapers, word of mouth, anyway you can get the message out. That way, you'd have better chance of winning.

Forget being hospitable to your out-of-state friends/visitors.

Just a few pointers to stop the influx of competition.
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