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Old 08-18-2001, 01:50 PM   #1
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Hi,

This may sound stupid but I don't care :) :) When I judge Ladies traditioNAL, i TRY TO IMAGINE THAT EVERYONE IS WEARING THE SAME THING...AND THEN NEXT i LOOK AT HOW MUCH WORK THEY OR SOMEONE ELSE (sorry 4 the caps)put into the reagalia. I know , I'm crazy...but I've seen glitter beadwork queens place over great dancers. Thanks! April
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Old 08-18-2001, 07:06 PM   #2
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Not me . . . I like to imagine everyone wearing absolutely nothing! :D It makes it way more interesting this way. I can't really say if it actually makes a more even playing field or not, just more interesting.

As for the glitter and rhinestones, you can definitely tell who does and doesn't have them as part of their accessories. Those Southern crowns are getting rediculously high. Almost to the point of attractin' lightning!

I'm glad to see Northern women not adopting the "glitter look' as much. They seem to have a more traditional look and to me this is very tasteful.
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Old 08-19-2001, 12:01 AM   #3
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Post BUCKSKIN CONTESTING!

UM. HI ALL! I HAVE ABOUT 20 EXCUSES AS TO WHY I HAVEN'T BEEN ON THESE BOARDS OR TALKING TO YOU ALL, BUT NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR THEM. I'M ALL RIGHT AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONCERN....BUT ANYWAY...LET'S TALK ABOUT BUCKSKIN DANCING, DRESSES AND CONTESTING!!!!
SUMMER IS ALMOST OVER AND I'VE BEEN TO A LOOOOOOOOTTTTTT OF POW-WOWS, MOST OF THEM GOOD!!
I CAN'T UNDERSTAND A LOT OF THE JUDGING I'VE SEEN, BUT OH WELL...PEOPLE HAVE THEIR OWN REASONS FOR ALL THEIR DECISIONS.
I NOTICED A LOT OF SHINE AND GLITTER OUT THERE. RHINESTONES, MIRRORS, EXTRA BIG SLEEVE APPLIQUE AND EXTRA ROWS OF BEADING ON THE SOUTHERN BUCKSKINS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS? DO YOU THINK JUDGES ARE NOTICING THE WOMEN WHO GLITTER MORE THAN OTHERS AND ARE THEREFORE PLACING THEM MORE OFTEN???
DID ANY OF YOU CONTEST THIS SUMMER???
IF SO...LET US KNOW HOW YOU DID AND LET US APPLAUD YOU OR LET US LISTEN TO YOUR SAD STORY AND BOO-HOO WITH YOU!!!
ANYBODY HAVE ANY FUNNY EXPERIENCES AT A POW-WOW THIS SUMMER? OR AN EXTRA FEEL GOOD EXPERIENCE?
AND ALSO WHERE IS ANYBODY GOING NEXT???
I HOPE SOME OF YOU ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO BE AT MOHEGAN POW-WOW RIGHT NOW AND THEN STAYING FOR SCHEMITZUN NEXT WEEK-END (AUIG 23-26)!!!
I THINK COSTA MESA IS NEXT WEEK-END AND THEN THE BIG LABOR DAY POW-WOWS.
I MIGHT GO TO CHEROKEE NATIONAL HOLIDAY IN TALLEQUAH, OK.I'VE NEVER BEEN BUT PEOPLE SAY IT'S BIG!!!
WELL, LET'S HEAR FROM EVERYONE AND YOU ALL TAKE CARE!! :)
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Old 08-19-2001, 09:52 PM   #4
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I just want to add my 2 cents worth here. I had 2 new dresses made for this year and both of them are very simple southern buckskins. The yokes are beaded with my own personal design-one rosette in the center and two on the sides a little smaller than the center one. Extra long fringe on the sleeves/cape. I have done away with the glittery stuff for a simpler look. This weekend I didn't wear a belt, and found that I liked that look (not to mention the comfort level)better. I have modified my dance style a little also to fit the new longer fringe-more swing and sway as opposed to the old regalia which did not have the extra long fringe. Overall I like the new look and style better than my old one. I recieved many compliments not only on my dresses but on the dancing as well. I do not contest, so I cannot comment on that aspect. However, I did see a lot of large applique pieces this weekend, so I can agree that this may be a new fashion trend as well. I am also carrying a new fan that is smaller than my old crow wing fan and I noticed that many of the women this weekend were using the much larger wing fans-goose, swan, turkey. This could be owing to the heat though.
While we are on this subject, I'd like to comment on something else I noticed this weekend-one of my new dresses is light cream color, but I saw a lot of women(granted I had never seen any of these people before in my area) wearing black buckskin. I found it kinda vulgar. Even the best made dress is sort of ruined when it is black. Doesn't seem very traditional to me. Anyone else seeing this, or is it just here in VA?
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Old 08-19-2001, 11:14 PM   #5
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Hey, Rie, was Nansemond this past weekend?? I haven't been there in years.

I am sorry to hear of your accident(s) as of late - hope you are doing better - and congrats on your new regalia(s). How's Panther Eyes doing?? Tell her she is missed. :)
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Old 08-20-2001, 12:30 AM   #6
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It's good to see a topic a lot more people might be able to relate to posted... okay, so probably not a lot... but I can relate. :D I'm a southern buckskin dancer, and I have to agree that there has been a lot more glitter and shine lately. I can't say that I'm the best mover and shaker the arena has seen... but I know that it's real intimidating standing next to glitter and shine after putting forth a lot of effort on my part. I'm at the point now, where's it's if you can't bet 'em, join 'em... so I myself have recently spoken to individuals in regards to getting a new outfit made. I've almost always believed that all the **sparklers** come out at Gathering, and for the rest of the year, they glitter and shine, until the next time Gathering rolls around, so they can break out with something more extravagent. One dress in particular my Mom said, "She should finish it, so she can go northern." there is so much beadwork on it. It's nice to know that people can afford the kind of outfits they have, and hopefully I'll be able to work my way to the point they are right now, but I'm sure by then they'll be ten more feet ahead of me. Oh well... you win some, you lose some.
**Future Sparkler** :D (I hope...)
ooh, by the way, it's good to see you back on the boards Miss Buck... hope business is well.
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Old 08-20-2001, 12:40 AM   #7
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Attracting Lightning!! LOL!! I've got to use that sometime. The oldtimers who really dislike the giant crowns will love it!
I agree that, unfortunately, some girls and women with mega-glitter are placing and winner above some truly graceful and elegant dancers.
But then there is also a backlash among some judges and they will strictly look at tne quality of the dancer. I think that is best and I hope it continues that way. And for those women who have come to me to buy rhinestones and super shiny beads (guilty)....I hope they are working really
hard on being the best dancer they can be!!
I also agree that the Northern Tradish women are not that outrageous with the glitter, but some of their fully beaded capes just take my breath away!! Also the fact that someone put sooooo much time and work into them just deserves all the respect in the world. A lot of their beadwork (Northern Ladies I mean)also have a lot of personal or family or spiritual meaning. That's special too. Of course many Southern Buckskins reflect the same personal meaning too....but I know a lot of people just choose colors and nothing beyond that.
It's all good...just as long as everybody keeps dancing!!!!!!!
Thonga (stolen from Tonkei White) and Ah-ho!
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Old 08-20-2001, 01:24 PM   #8
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This whole black buckskin thing is really bothering me, honestly. The women who were wearing these dresses looked like, for lack of a better word Newagers. Sorry, if there is anyone out there who doesn't fit this term, but that was the overall feeling I got. One of these women didn't know what she was doing-honoring the men during a tradtional holding her fan up over her head-I guess she could have been keeping the sun off but it was cloudy.
Yes Ace, this was Nansemond. And it is not a contest Pow Wow, but it is a pretty good dance, usually. I had 2 girls dancing behind me during one of the intertribals and after I came up from an honor beat I heard one of them comment, "Well, we know who the Southern women are, now." If I could have distinguished what their dance style was (Northern or Southern) it might not have bothered me too much. But I couldn't. They just seemed to be walking around the circle. There were some other irratating instances too. I have a friend who is Inuit from Alaska-She was not in full regalia as it is too hot to wear in our climate. The AD asked her to leave the circle after GE stating that she was not in regalia. After much explanation on my part and that of others in my group, they told her that she could come back in and dance, but at that point she was so insulted that she refused. This is a prime example of what happens often in my area. Some hippy in black buckskins is allowed to go in the circle and make a fool of herself and a real Native who is visiting from far across the continent is asked to leave. It is embarrassing, really. A prime example of why I do not often dance in the area I live in.
P.S. Ace-Panther Eyes went with me and did really great. She left early but got in a couple of dances and went shopping with me and really enjoyed herself. She brought out a new dress too, with beadwork that is very similar to that she made for my dresses. Dancing healed me this weekend-no question.

[ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: 1dancing white wolf ]
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Old 08-20-2001, 01:33 PM   #9
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I agree, a large portion of Virginia pow wows are made up of crackpot, new-age hippy people. As for the black buckskin dresses, maybe they got lost while looking for the Sturgis Rally :D What a hoot!
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Old 08-20-2001, 01:48 PM   #10
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Oh, 1 Dancing White Wolf...I am so embarassed for you and your friend from Alaska, that I actually have tears in my eyes. Really! How awful, that your friend was dis-respected so badly by ignorance by someone on the head staff of that dance.
Especially when new-agers and what-mot are allowed to act like fools in the arena.
If an A.D. around here had dared to do that to another NDN (it never would have happend...they definitely would have asked around before saying anything)...our custom is that a large amount of money or a pledge or a really important gift would have to be given to the organization...in public. It may sound mercenary, but that is how someone shows that they know or they have been advised that they have done or said or acted in some way wrong in public. Sometimes, if some insult gets by...but it gets back to their family...then an elder from the wrong-doers family will come foward at the next dance and take the microphone and apologize and make good in the way I mentioned. All is forgiven at that time and tremendous respect is then restored to that family. It's 2001, but that's the way it goes and I'm glad!!
Instant retribution or, as those Black Buckskin people would say "instant karma", comes down fast in NDN country, and once it is resolved...it is over. If it is not resolved...it is war!!! Well let's not go there..... But I'm sorry you had that experience with the other dancers,too!
I've always wanted to go to a SouthEast Pow-Wow, but I have heard too many stories like yours and do not need to go there now. However, and I think I have asked this before...if anyone can tell me the "good" Southeastern Pow-Wows to go to, I'd love to come.
Sorry, I'm so long-winded....Anyone else have a comment on this situation???
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Old 08-20-2001, 03:04 PM   #11
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The best Pow Wows in this area are small, and not well publicized. Sad but true. The instant karma people are not allowed in to start with much less allowed to dance. Closed to the public but for invited guests of the drums and dancers, the tribe hosting and the people on the committee. There are a few that are open to the public that are really good (The Great American Indian Expo in November-but I hate dancing on concrete floors)but you have to know when and where, and they are selective about who they let dance. This rule of selectivity doesn't always apply to the vendors, but at least I am not subjected to dancing with wahoos. If the people on the committee for the dance this weekend had even bothered to offer a REAL apology to my friend, I don't think she would have been so upset. They relayed their message that she could dance through me-never spoke to her face that I know of. But she made a comment that is too true in this area-ONLY in Virginia. She went to Maryland last weekend and danced up there with no problems, had a great time, and made a lot of new friends. Then she comes down here and gets treated like this. I think what was so embarrassing was the lack of education on the part of the AD (the same guy does this every year, and usually lectures the dancers when we line up for GE) and his failure to ask first before jumping to a conclusion. There have been other incidents like this in the past where this guy has asked dancers to leave the circle without talking to them first about the reason why. This group, unfortunately has a very rigid idea of what they want in their circle and any one who does not fit that standard is asked to leave. BUT! They let these people who are dressed like fruitcakes dance. I have pretty much had enough of this one to say the least-it is not worth the 2 hour drive to put up with this kinda silly stuff. I skipped this one last year and will probably skip it again from now on. Like I said before-I'd rather go north-longer drive but better Pow Wows altogether.
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Old 08-20-2001, 04:47 PM   #12
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I just posted 4 photos of Comanche Women in Buckskin dresses from 1926. Have a look and enjoy!

Rumi
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Old 08-20-2001, 06:40 PM   #13
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rie,
sorry that this happened to your friend but that's the AD (Pinky) for you. last year at chesepeake, told a fullblood elder lakota that he could not dance the way of his people.


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Old 08-21-2001, 12:45 AM   #14
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Red face

As far as what 1 Dancing White Wolf saw at a Pow-Wow recently....no, I have never seen a Black Buckskin Dress and I can't imagine that it would be very attractive.
I've done some bit of research (for my own interest) on other tribes Buckskin Dresses and have never seen any made from dyed black Buckskin (dyeing is the only way you get black deerskin). I hope I am not offending any tribes' tradition, that am just ignorant of. If so, forgive me.
Nope, haven't seen anything like that at Pow-Wows in the Central or Southern Plains or at Denver March or at Gathering.
I did see a lot of brown cow hide dresses (oh yeah girlfriends) at Schemitzun worn by some women from up there. I had about 3 really pretty white Bucksin Dresses and 1 beautiful braintan dress on display (for sale) at my booth and I thought they were pretty hoss, but the ladies in brown cow hide...some wearing their hides in an off-the-shoulder manner (????)....just walked right on by and didn't even give them a second glance. Oh well.....
Did the black "Buckskins" contest? If so, what possible category? Central Atlantic Seabord Traditional??? Sorry, just kidding..I have a wicked sense of humor sometimes even if I am the only one that thinks I'm cute!!!
Hey this topic is really getting great input from everybody....everyone who reads it should feel free to join in and share with us!!
Ah-ho!
Southern baby gurl...I'm one of the ones that you talked to about a dress...sorry I haven't gotten back to you recently...I'm so busy making dresses! The next order I take...if I even take another one...will be for next summer!!!!
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Old 08-21-2001, 11:50 AM   #15
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Ruminator, those pictures are absolutely breathtaking and I am getting chills just looking at them! Thank you so much for sharing such a beautiful view from our past!!!!
I'm going to show them to my Mother-in-Law and my Kagoo (Gaku)-in-law and see how many people they can identify. Probably almost all relatives, being Comanches and all. Aaaayyy! Did you post the pictures from Craterville Park too? I'm pretty sure some of them were our Kiowa relatives, too!
Are you from SW Oklahoma? I will PM you after they look at those pictures..once again...Ah-ho for sharing!
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Old 08-22-2001, 11:27 PM   #16
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What's the significance of the crown? Do only ladies that are or were royalty were them?
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Old 08-23-2001, 10:55 AM   #17
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As far as I know, in the Southern Plains, originally, only Tribal Princesses or Organization or Club Princesses wore crowns.
Now it is just an adornment worn by anyone who wants to have one to go with their cloth or buckskin dress.
Anybody else, have any info on crowns?
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Old 08-23-2001, 03:34 PM   #18
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I was looking at the Comanche ladies in the photo gallery and saw many wearing otter turbans. Could someone explain to me why ladies would wear these turbans? I've only seen them on men and I'm just curious.
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Old 08-24-2001, 10:38 AM   #19
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1 Dancing White Wolf - Black Buckskin??Why would anyone want to dye buckskin black? Now
Herman is gonna get upset,and you know how he gets when he's like that :D
Seriously-and I realize I'm younger generation male,but would somebody please explain to me why they want to get carried away with trying to see how fancy they can be? Seems like that is just trying to be to showy.
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Old 08-24-2001, 11:45 AM   #20
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Czechy,

From what I have seen down here (Texas) it is fairly common for Comanche women to wear the turbans. I think they look incredible on a woman. Really announces her presence :) .
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