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Old 05-21-2003, 01:35 AM   #1
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Just insulted

I am sure the posters who wrote on buckskin, (prefer rough side out or smooth side out) did not intend to insult people when a few stated that they felt seeing a buckskin dress with the smooth side out is "twinkieish"

Smooth side is the side that once had hair.. rough side is the side that has the suede...

I aint a person who is "mostly white" trying to look Ndn, I aint a person who is "mostly black" trying to pass as mostly Ndn... I aint trying to insult anyone here... but I been insulted....

There is a reason many of us Indians who are from federally recognized tribes, tribes that recognize each other, those of us from Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, who have more than just "part" Indian in us... there is a reason why the smooth side goes out... that is because that is how the deer wore it!!

Twinkieish to someone? Come down to Tulsa powwow and call the buckskin dancers there "twinkies"...


I am in the process of making a new dress, would I consider putting the suede side out? Oh heck no! Not only is it easier to clean with the smooth side out, I have always known the dress to be worn that way...

I seen photographs of a few dresses with the suede side out, and wouldnt have one that way.

My photo is in the gallery.. I aint white, I aint black... I am just a Indian woman who feels insulted by non Indians telling me our dresses in the midwest are "twinkieish" Dont ask us what we think of those peoples dresses... we are too kind to reply.
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Old 05-21-2003, 01:41 PM   #2
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Keely,

I do agree with what you said in reference to not commenting on others dresses. Everyone has their own way of making, wearing or using what they have. Each has old ways, clan ways or whatever the case maybe. There are many times on the postings that I have felt insulted but they do not know my ways. It's good to know that someone will speak up to let others know that things are not always what they seem to think they are.

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Old 05-21-2003, 06:09 PM   #3
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This is a prime example of why I started the post "womens circle" in powwow talk so women could talk about different teachings and we could come to a better understanding of others. Sad to say, I guess I was the only one that felt that way as there were only views and no responses. Oh well.. may not be the right time. ;)
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Old 05-24-2003, 04:33 PM   #4
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Unhappy

I would agree I shy away from posting here beacause a lot of pople seem to lash out at one another... I thought this was suposed to be a place to learn and shar for those of us far from home... Was I wrong?
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Old 05-27-2003, 12:05 PM   #5
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One thing my grandmother taught me was to respect other ways. Not to think ours were better, worse or not even right. I know alot of people shy away from posting because of rough comments. If something doesn't seem correct try to help out in away that is respectful and tactful. If we all pulled together or at least tried to who knows how far we could go. I enjoy reading and posting.
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Old 05-27-2003, 10:20 PM   #6
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Unhappy In or Out

I am a buckskin dancer,thisis wha happened to me. When I got the Buckskin to make my dress,I was scared to death to make a cut on it. And Elder Told me to lay my Buckskin out and it would talk to me and show me what to do. I did as she said and I have maeed something that is a work from my heart.It is with the smooth side in. That is just the way my dress came to be. I have saw some of the most wonderful dress that wereboth ways. What is the problem!!!!!????? They are all right to me.
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Old 05-27-2003, 10:25 PM   #7
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Old 05-27-2003, 10:54 PM   #8
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Question

My question....was the person who made the reference about the smooth vs rough side out talkin about brain tan hide or commercial? My bottom (brain tan) is the smooth side, where the hair was. But with commercial hide I use the suede side cause it its much easier to scrape and chalk. I think it depends on the hide.
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Old 05-29-2003, 02:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Keely
I am sure the posters who wrote on buckskin, (prefer rough side out or smooth side out) did not intend to insult people when a few stated that they felt seeing a buckskin dress with the smooth side out is "twinkieish"

I aint a person who is "mostly white" trying to look Ndn, I aint a person who is "mostly black" trying to pass as mostly Ndn... I aint trying to insult anyone here... but I been insulted....

There is a reason many of us Indians who are from federally recognized tribes, tribes that recognize each other, those of us from Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, who have more than just "part" Indian in us... there is a reason why the smooth side goes out... that is because that is how the deer wore it!!


My photo is in the gallery.. I aint white, I aint black... I am just a Indian woman who feels insulted by non Indians telling me our dresses in the midwest are "twinkieish" Dont ask us what we think of those peoples dresses... we are too kind to reply.
Personally, I didn't see it as a racial issue. I could be offended by your response,,,,,but I'm not..... lol only cause I choose not to be. I'm Black and Indian. I am proud of who I am. I don't go around insulting folks cause my mama taught me better than that, but I'm human. And thus, here goes....:Chatter :p

I didn't like the dress on ebay. I thought it was horrendous. But that's just me. As far as your stuff, girl it's yerz!!! This is the net and folks are gonna have their opinions. Take it with a grain of salt and make a dress that'll leave em droolin! ;)
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Old 05-30-2003, 09:09 AM   #10
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Thumbs up Just insulted

In our neck of the woods wearing leather suede side out is an insult to the deer who gave his life so that the skin could be worn. So I'm with you on that! It is also easier to bead skin side out, so that is a more practical reason for wearing the dress that way.

We do see 'em both ways though, so I just figure that the suede-side out people either have damaged skins (scars and such) or can't afford whole hides and have to use splits. So they are to be pitied.
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Old 05-30-2003, 07:10 PM   #11
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Lady Trad - I completely disagree and you probably just offended most of the native people on this board.

What I was taught (not saying that this is how it should be for everyone) was that when our ancestors tanned skins they were sueded on both sides, so you make your dresses with the soft side out to be traditional. It is not any more difficult to bead on the suede side as it is the slick side, and in my experiences buying hides both sides can have defects.

Travel around the powwow circuits and all the beaded dresses which probably cost $4000 and up will have the soft side out. Same is true here in the NW. I doubt you'd pity the women who wear them.

Now if your grandmas taught you differently, that's great and you're keeping the traditions you were taught.
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Old 05-30-2003, 07:54 PM   #12
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This is a good discussion. If you check the archives you will see I was once put in my place for telling someone who wanted to know how to make a buckskin that they should make it smooth side out. This was the way I was taught. I guess questioning what someone else had said they got defensive. (By the way this was the moderator here.) It's true they are made different ways. People should be open minded and listen to what others have to say. I was taught there was a reason you make them smooth side out. I really don't think Aunt Pauline Whitebird didn't know what she was doing. I'm not saying this is the right way to make them..... I'm just saying that's the way her tribe did it.
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Old 05-30-2003, 07:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightningflash
Lady Trad - I completely disagree and you probably just offended most of the native people on this board.

What I was taught (not saying that this is how it should be for everyone) was that when our ancestors tanned skins they were sueded on both sides, so you make your dresses with the soft side out to be traditional. It is not any more difficult to bead on the suede side as it is the slick side, and in my experiences buying hides both sides can have defects.

Travel around the powwow circuits and all the beaded dresses which probably cost $4000 and up will have the soft side out. Same is true here in the NW. I doubt you'd pity the women who wear them.

Now if your grandmas taught you differently, that's great and you're keeping the traditions you were taught.
right on you tell her
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Old 05-30-2003, 10:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightningflash
Lady Trad - I completely disagree and you probably just offended most of the native people on this board.

What I was taught (not saying that this is how it should be for everyone) was that when our ancestors tanned skins they were sueded on both sides, so you make your dresses with the soft side out to be traditional. It is not any more difficult to bead on the suede side as it is the slick side, and in my experiences buying hides both sides can have defects.

Travel around the powwow circuits and all the beaded dresses which probably cost $4000 and up will have the soft side out. Same is true here in the NW. I doubt you'd pity the women who wear them.

Now if your grandmas taught you differently, that's great and you're keeping the traditions you were taught.
I have to agree with this too!

I was always taught to put the most comfortable side to your skin, so you won't get a rash ...... at least this is what my Great Grandmother taught me ... Grandma always did it this way .... hmmm makes sense to me too! Which ever side is the most comfy ..... I ain't chewing the whole side soft! But I will work it with a rock like I was taught!
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Old 05-31-2003, 01:17 PM   #15
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OMG Tsiniti - you just took me wayyyyy back. There's another topic for discussion - anyone have dresses made with real chewed hides? One of my cousins had a dress that Yakama ladies made for her, and the hides were chewed. It would be interesting to see if any other tribes in the US practiced that tradition. Anyone?

As far as the whole smooth side/soft side out discussion, it seems to be a personal preference more than a tribal thing. It seems that even people from the same tribe(s) are disagreeing about it.

So go for what you like!
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Old 06-05-2003, 09:23 AM   #16
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me too

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruby76
I would agree I shy away from posting here beacause a lot of pople seem to lash out at one another... I thought this was suposed to be a place to learn and shar for those of us far from home... Was I wrong?
they need to change the membership somhow,...
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Old 06-15-2003, 02:32 AM   #17
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OMG

I started reading this thread after thinking about a dress for my granddaughter. She won't have another special for quite a few years, she's only 2. But I wanted to start saving and planning for her dress when she starts school in three years, we plan to have special for her then.

But after all this drama, I don't even know if we want to do bucksin. Thank God for the ''peacmakers'' that posted unifying responses. As an ndn that grew up off-res (for 3 generations) I had hoped to learn more from this thread, as most of my family elders have already left. I really want to recapture so much that my family has lost for the sake of 'good jobs etc.' in the city.

So I think I will just pray about, contact my nation in OK and let the Creator direct me to the right skin and how to work it.

Love ya, (mixed white or black, whole, jus be breathing)

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Old 06-17-2003, 01:53 AM   #18
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I know Aunt Pauli Whitebird had some very nice buckskins over her time. She had helped my Mom make hers,as well as our daughters. We would sit with Aunt Pauli and and Uncle Bob often. She would give us much in heritage but usually we did things because that is the way it is done. Why, we just didn't question it and accepted the ways. We were raised not to question our elders but to do. This was easy because most everyone around that part of the world had very simular clothes.
The dress would be more comfortable with the slick side out. I know my leggins are more comfortable with the slick sideout.

Sometimes we do things JUST BECAUSE.
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